The Liverpool FC Thread XII

Manquillo has provided quite a few excellent crosses, and also won us the late (winning) penalty against Ludogorets. He definitely offers an outlet, just as much as Johnson. He doesn't yet have the composure or reliability to make the most of the space but it's a hell of a lot better than running into blind alleys or doing the typical-cut-inside-trip-over-your-own-two-feet-as-you-try-and-shoot-with-your-weaker-foot-from-25-yards version of 'attacking contribution' that Glen Johnson offers every game.

The idea that he'll never be a great attacking fullback is wrong. I mentioned 'fullbacks' specifically because you talked about the 4ATB and you also mentioned Johnson is an RWB not an RB (which, in 2015, is wrong). RWB, RB or RCB, we have better options than Johnson.

Try and read my previous post where I explained why a diamond is a ridiculous idea with our current options.

We saw Sakho Skrtel with Lucas in front of them last season. Sakho and Skrtel are from completely alternative schools of defending and they don't complement each other, only contrast. When you've come across a tried and tested formula why do you have to try and erase all of that and go back to a proven failure?

We've scored enough goals to go at better than a top four rate. 1 goal in the last three cup games, but that's with Sterling up front, who, may I remind you, played RB/RWB for the first half of last season.


So you want both Balo and Lallana on the pitch?

How would you have liked us to line up. Henderson wide, Lallana playing CM, Balo, Coutinho, Sterling up front?

Lallana doesn't have the required pace for someone like Ramires. Nowhere near and I actually doubt that it would be any kind of discernible improvement over Gerrard (albeit by the later stages of extra time I was too emotionally invested to be tracking Gerrard's specific pace levels). Lallana would have been demolished by Ramires. At least Gerrard has strength and some kind of defensive nous.

A couple of good crosses out of many isn't good enough. Yes great that he won one penalty but what other examples are there? He was completely anonymous against Bolton when he had the freedom of the right flank. If he's such a great attacking option, why isn't he getting more game time when Flanagan has been out for the season and Johnson is so bad?

If your suggested alternatives are Markovic and Can, that's not enough considering neither are likely to play those positions next season. Markovic will become one of our attacking players and Can will become a CM. Johnson, before getting injured, was getting picked ahead of Manquillo.

Sakho's adjusted better to this season. You act like they don't play next to each other in a 3 man defense. I'm not saying we should switch now but I'm suggesting it should be an alternative formation we're able to play when it suits against certain opposition. We've got a more balanced backline so Rodgers won't sacrifice that yet but if our attacking play doesn't improve then he's going to need another adjustment which is likely to be a 4 man defence.

No Balotelli shouldn't have come on. The first change should have been Gerrard off, Lallana on. If that then didn't work, I would've taken Markovic off and brought Lambert on and switched to 4 at the back and move to a 4-2-3-1 to mirror Chelsea.

Gerrard has defensive nous? He's regularly a liability which is why Rodgers has stopped playing him as the deep two man midfield.

Flanagan hasn't played pre-season this year and has missed a further 5-6 months of football. Who knows how long it will take for him to get back to true match fitness and whether he'll be as good as he was before. I don't think he'll look great at RWB and I think we should be looking for a right footed Moreno in the summer.

Lovren is abysmal, Markovic was knackered and is not a defender ffs. Ramires is a box to box midfielder who loves a tackle and a bite. Markovic is a bloody lightweight attacking prodigy.

No, Ramires didn't win or make us lose it. We could and should have still won it in normal time, regardless of Ramires. We didn't have a cutting edge and the two most braindead lazy ***** in our team combined to switch off at a set piece. Ramires helped but it wasn't over just because he came on.

Markovic has good work rate and has done well defensively. Yeah he's a little lightweight but you've seen many times wingers going back to fullback midgame to get more attacking impetus.

Ramires helped us badly, we were getting pressurised a lot in the first leg, he provided energy and turned the game into a fitness test where we trumped. He changed the complexion of Liverpool dominating to Chelsea overrunning your midfield. Henderson at RB was another possibility, so Can works with Lucas. Better than Johnson playing LCB anyway.

Give me examples of Glen Johnson's attacking contribution then?

Zerf there's a regular theme of the straw-man with you and you fail to address the point made against you. I never said at any point that 'he's such a great attacking option'. Stop putting words in my mouth. Regularly I've said that he doesn't have the first touch or passing to make the most of the space that he gets. I have never suggested his attacking abilities are presently better than average.

What makes you so sure that Markovic will immediately be converted into an attacking player and Can immediately into a midfielder? Markovic has offered precious little going forwards, even on this run of form. A great work rate and a composed head but nothing by the way of penetration.

You underestimate the difference between the back three and a back four, and how much having two men alongside Skrtel helps him. It completely eradicates his failings against people running at him and helps him stick to what he does best - pure defending, clearing of the ball and covering the man attacking the ball, getting himself into the box, where he's most comfortable. There is literally no way in the entire world that bringing Sturridge into our team will not improve our attacking play; attacking play that has already lead us to better than top four form.

Can't comment on your ideas for the game because we'll never know.

Gerrard is better at CM in a defensive sense than Lallana. Even a tired Gerrard.

A right-footed Moreno wouldn't be ideal. Our defence would all be shaky defensively, all be prone to errors, and it would unbalance the side imo.

As far as I'm aware Markovic hasn't play that wingback role in the past? He's too relaxed in his passing to be in that key defensive role and his instinct is to attack or be 10 yards higher up the pitch. That and he has the skill, pace and ball control to beat his man which means he'll get played closer to goal in the future. You don't waste that attacking talent further back as a wing/fullback.

Can has been a midfield player by trade. He only played CB as a youth player. Maybe he will remain as CB but we've seen him make a few mistakes now. I don't think his anticipation is good enough as a defender since sometimes he looks sluggish in reacting. He looks like a natural replacement for Lucas?

And I think you're over-estimating the difference between a back 3 and a back 4. If anything, when the wingbacks are up the pitch (as they regularly are for us) then the 3 CBs are each covering a bigger area than when we play with 4 at the back and you have the DM deeper/more covering and usually one fullback attacking and the other in a more defensive position. You can't just write off a Sakho/Skrtel partnership (which has Lucas and Henderson in front) without seeing that in play. Skrtel successfully played as a pair of CBs for years now, even last year for our title challenge. Sakho plays as a pair for PSG and France. They can build a relationship when the other players around them are the right suit too.

Well an error free, right footed Moreno
Basically another pacey fullback who can attack and stretch the pitch to compliment having a defensive one like Flanagan in the squad.

Henderson only plays wing back when he has to.

Henderson only plays wing back when he has to.

Although if we end up playing 3-4-3 with Moreno-Lucas-Gerrard-Henderson I'll smash my TV.

Unfortunately, you can see it happening.

Manquillo overlaps too. The reason why Rodgers wants Johnson to sign a new contract is the same as the reason why Rodgers has put faith in Skrtel despite mediocrity from him until recently - experience and personal favouritism.

Again a lovely strawman you've built, I've never called him a crap attacking player. Flanagan worked perfectly for us last season without being a magnificent attacker and Manquillo can/will offer much more in the coming years. But more importantly, Manquillo is outstanding defensively, his defensive statistics are remarkable.


He's really not too relaxed in his passing at all, what an absurd notion. His instinct is to attack but he was magnificent in nullifying Hazard eg, so he clearly knows his duties. You'd like him closer to goal but he's yet to show any ability to beat his man so until he starts doing that (which btw he probably has a better chance of currently doing from wingback, after having built up a head of steam) he's fine where he is.

Can's played CB quite a few times, he was playing there for Germany U21s when he got injured earlier in the year. Nothing to say he can't continue in the role. I don't think his anticipation is poor or his reactions are sluggish at all...

The last time Skrtel played successfully in a two was the second half of 11-12 (which happens to be our poorest season in memory). He was abysmal in a two last season. They don't work as a duo, which is the main issue with those two, it's not the players around them.

My issue is having Moreno, and a right-footed equivalent on the pitch at the same time, is just an accident waiting to happen while we have a back three and goalkeeper prone to errors. It's the old debate of whether we need our wing-backs to be more wing than back, and during matches against the likes of Leicester/Sunderland/Burnley, we undoubtedly do.

We need options like Flanagan and Manquillo, though, who offer us more solidity than Johnson or Moreno at the back. Players like those - while probably not going to whip in a match-winning cross - will keep things tight in matches against the back four clubs.

We all saw Flanagan's ability during the matches against Tottenham last year, and the United/City matches at home.

Isn't that what you did last night and to make matters worse with Glen Johnson at LCB?

Doubt Rodgers will do that, he's been playing Gerrard at no.10 for a reason. He said that he sees Gerrard as a ball playing CB in the future, which he did a few times last season when you go 3atb in possession, Maybe using Gerrard at CB the way United use Michael Carrick there at times is an option? Just think Can is wasted at CB.

Or maybe, Rodgers as a coach who sees them regularly in training, has a better idea than you?

Isn't that what you did last night and to make matters worse with Glen Johnson at LCB?

Doubt Rodgers will do that, he's been playing Gerrard at no.10 for a reason. He said that he sees Gerrard as a ball playing CB in the future, which he did a few times last season when you go 3atb in possession, Maybe using Gerrard at CB the way United use Michael Carrick there at times is an option? Just think Can is wasted at CB.

Basically when Rodgers needs somebody right-footed with energy to occupy that position, because no other ****er is capable.

Yeah, but we did it as victims of the circumstances, not out of real desire.

Don't think Gerrard has the defensive ability to be in the back three, or the legs to handle wingers like an RCB is required to do (see Can winning the battle vs Hazard over the two legs). He's too flamboyant and in the home stretch of his career here, he's not going to be disciplined at all.

I'm not sure Can is actually wasted at CB right now. I think he might not be refined enough with the ball under pressure for a midfield role just yet and that playing him at CB will help him with that at least. Plus he needs to improves his reactions and acceleration over 2-5 yards to help with the midfield scraps. I like him where he is tbh and don't see a massive need to change given that Lucas-Henderson is so brilliant.

I wasn't going to use Gerrard at RCB that's suicide. I said how Michael Carrick is used at United so at CB. 2 or 3 of Lucas/Can/Henderson should theoretically be enough cover to stop Gerrard from being exposed, last season you had Allen/Coutinho alongside Henderson.

I still think Lucas needs to be improved upon personally, should have been sent off anyway.

I don't know how Carrick is used there for United.

Lucas lacks the physicality which is why he struggled with, quite frankly, a defensively lazy, and ageing, Gerrard during 2013.

But with Henderson around to cover a lot more ground, he's been exceptional. We've lost two in 18, one a hard fought loss vs Chelsea and the other was the only game that Lucas didn't play. His stats for tackles, interceptions and the other facets of general defensive play are >= Schneiderlin and second only to Matic.

I was not a huge fan of Lucas post-injury, always slagged him off and hated how he's pretty limp when someone is running at him but a combination of a more attacking CB line up behind him, and Henderson, have given him the platform to excel defensively. His passing is crisp and excellent going forwards too and he rotates the ball very, very well.

Oh and Costa shouldn't have been sent off, lol