Rape is now guilty before proven innocent.
Campaigners hail DPP's tough new rape guidelines as 'huge step forward'
Radical changes to the way sex offences are investigated have been hailed as a “huge step forward” by campaigners.
New guidance to be issued to all police forces and prosecutors will require rape suspects to convince the authorities that a woman consented to sex.
Police and prosecutors must now put a greater burden of responsibility on rape suspects to demonstrate how the complainant had consented “with full capacity and freedom to do so”, according to the new guidance.
Rape victims should no longer be “blamed” by society if they are too drunk to consent to sex, or if they simply freeze and say nothing, Alison Saunders, the Director of Public Prosecutions, said.
“For too long society has blamed rape victims for confusing the issue of consent - by drinking or dressing provocatively for example - but it is not they who are confused, it is society itself and we must challenge that,” Mrs Saunders told the the first National Crown Prosecution Service/Police Conference on Rape Investigations and Prosecutions in London.
“Consent to sexual activity is not a grey area - in law it is clearly defined and must be given fully and freely.
“It is not a crime to drink, but it is a crime for a rapist to target someone who is no longer capable of consenting to sex through drink,” Mrs Saunders continued.
“We want police and prosecutors to make sure they ask in every case where consent is the issue - how did the suspect know the complainant was saying yes and doing so freely and knowingly?”
The ability to consent to sex should also be questioned where the complainant has mental health problems, learning difficulties or was asleep or unconscious at the time of the alleged attack, Mrs Saunders said.
Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt, the Association of Chief Police Officers lead on adult sex offences, said: “As report after report has shown, there is still far too much variation in the way that forces move a complaint of rape through the system.
“Reporting of sexual offences is up 22 per cent in the latest statistics because of increased confidence in our service and recording but we have further to go.
“We need to tackle the iconic issues of 'no further action' and, particularly, 'no crimes' head on and reduce inconsistencies in our processes so that we can send a clear and unequivocal message to victims about how they will be treated.”
Around 85,000 women per year are victims of rape in the UK; some 90 per cent of these women know the perpetrator.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-hail-dpps-tough-new-rape-guidelines-as-huge-step-forward-10009595.html
Be prepare to record all your sex with hidden camera guys, u gonna need it. Or get 4 witness to watch you having sex, that will work too.
Radical changes to the way sex offences are investigated have been hailed as a “huge step forward” by campaigners.
New guidance to be issued to all police forces and prosecutors will require rape suspects to convince the authorities that a woman consented to sex.
Police and prosecutors must now put a greater burden of responsibility on rape suspects to demonstrate how the complainant had consented “with full capacity and freedom to do so”, according to the new guidance.
Rape victims should no longer be “blamed” by society if they are too drunk to consent to sex, or if they simply freeze and say nothing, Alison Saunders, the Director of Public Prosecutions, said.
“For too long society has blamed rape victims for confusing the issue of consent - by drinking or dressing provocatively for example - but it is not they who are confused, it is society itself and we must challenge that,” Mrs Saunders told the the first National Crown Prosecution Service/Police Conference on Rape Investigations and Prosecutions in London.
“Consent to sexual activity is not a grey area - in law it is clearly defined and must be given fully and freely.
“It is not a crime to drink, but it is a crime for a rapist to target someone who is no longer capable of consenting to sex through drink,” Mrs Saunders continued.
“We want police and prosecutors to make sure they ask in every case where consent is the issue - how did the suspect know the complainant was saying yes and doing so freely and knowingly?”
The ability to consent to sex should also be questioned where the complainant has mental health problems, learning difficulties or was asleep or unconscious at the time of the alleged attack, Mrs Saunders said.
Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Martin Hewitt, the Association of Chief Police Officers lead on adult sex offences, said: “As report after report has shown, there is still far too much variation in the way that forces move a complaint of rape through the system.
“Reporting of sexual offences is up 22 per cent in the latest statistics because of increased confidence in our service and recording but we have further to go.
“We need to tackle the iconic issues of 'no further action' and, particularly, 'no crimes' head on and reduce inconsistencies in our processes so that we can send a clear and unequivocal message to victims about how they will be treated.”
Around 85,000 women per year are victims of rape in the UK; some 90 per cent of these women know the perpetrator.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/campaigners-hail-dpps-tough-new-rape-guidelines-as-huge-step-forward-10009595.html
Be prepare to record all your sex with hidden camera guys, u gonna need it. Or get 4 witness to watch you having sex, that will work too.
(edited 9 years ago)
Scroll to see replies
It's pretty much been that way for a while, it completely undermines the rule of law.
Waiting for the feminists to start praising this...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Waiting for the feminists to start praising this...
Posted from TSR Mobile
A lot of sick and twisted women are gonna have fun with this...
Can there ever be a 'happy' (poor choice of word but I'm hoping it will be seen in context...) medium in rape cases? One of the hardest crimes to prove and one where it's impossible to set the boundaries at a point that seems fair to all, given that a lot of the time men fail to understand what the impact of forced sex can have on a woman psychologically.
Original post by Redemption?
Can there ever be a 'happy' (poor choice of word but I'm hoping it will be seen in context...) medium in rape cases? One of the hardest crimes to prove and one where it's impossible to set the boundaries at a point that seems fair to all, given that a lot of the time men fail to understand what the impact of forced sex can have on a woman psychologically.
Probably not nearly as much as a false rape allegation.
I have no idea what they are expecting people to do to confirm consent. Breathalyser tests and a signed document in the presence of a lawyer?
The problem with rape cases is that it really is impossible to find out what the truth is. Because false accusation can absolutely destroy someone, people are (rightfully) not quick to condemn someone. Even the accusation, without conviction, can ruin someone's life. However, rape can also ruin the victim's life (as Redemption? says, the impact can be severe psychologically), and most cases rarely come to anything. I'd imagine there are many more cases of victims (male or female) going unnoticed than of false accusations, but both are left vulnerable.
This legislation obviously makes no sense, but it seems like no matter what you legislate, there's little protection for either side.
The problem with rape cases is that it really is impossible to find out what the truth is. Because false accusation can absolutely destroy someone, people are (rightfully) not quick to condemn someone. Even the accusation, without conviction, can ruin someone's life. However, rape can also ruin the victim's life (as Redemption? says, the impact can be severe psychologically), and most cases rarely come to anything. I'd imagine there are many more cases of victims (male or female) going unnoticed than of false accusations, but both are left vulnerable.
This legislation obviously makes no sense, but it seems like no matter what you legislate, there's little protection for either side.
Original post by Jebedee
Probably not nearly as much as a false rape allegation.
Good point. Can men fully appreciate what rape does to a woman? Can women understand what a false allegation does to a man? Who can comprehensively state which is worse on the individual?
I would hope that rape victims do get all the support they can get and have their claims fully investigated. However this burden of proof thing for the accused sounds like it goes against good sense, it opens more doors for false accusations that can really ruin a falsely accused person's life (and the more false accusations come to people's attention, the harder it is for real rape victims to be taken seriously). Not only that, but what kind of proof would be acceptable? I'm sure not everyone does or even wants to record themselves having sex. It just seems like it's going to further muddy the issue. I don't know, maybe I don't know enough about it but it comes off as alarming.
There's an inherent sexism to these guidelines. They seem to be working under the assumption that no woman would ever ever be nasty or smart enough to abuse it, despite the fact we're meant to treat genders equally. Attitudes like this segregate and demean women.
Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home.
If these are the guidelines then maybe we need movement to teach young women about false accusations and how they've ruined the lives of actual rape victims and innocent men alike.
Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home.
If these are the guidelines then maybe we need movement to teach young women about false accusations and how they've ruined the lives of actual rape victims and innocent men alike.
(edited 9 years ago)
They should just make punishement harsher on both sides - much longer terms for rapists, but the same term for false accusations.
Original post by Hal.E.Lujah
Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home.
That sounds bs. How often did she do that? Sounds like an attention seeker.
Original post by SarcasticMel
That sounds bs. How often did she do that? Sounds like an attention seeker.
Well obviously when she first said it we took it really serious and said she should call the police, but when she started saying things happened that didn't because she forgot we were there too, we started to see a pattern. Dont know if it was attention seeking really, she just regretted having sex with them and channelled that into something/passed the blame on.
Original post by Hal.E.Lujah
Well obviously when she first said it we took it really serious and said she should call the police, but when she started saying things happened that didn't because she forgot we were there too, we started to see a pattern. Dont know if it was attention seeking really, she just regretted having sex with them and channelled that into something/passed the blame on.
With them? So she did say she was raped on more than one occasion?
Original post by SarcasticMel
With them? So she did say she was raped on more than one occasion?
Would rather not get into it to be honest, but yes.
Talking about it though makes me realise that it's probably more a problem with definition. Rape encompasses everything from someone springing from the bushes to a simple accident. Should the definition be split to allow the police to differentiate between what personally I'd call 'Actual rape' and 'Consent ambiguity'?
Original post by Hal.E.Lujah
There's an inherent sexism to these guidelines. They seem to be working under the assumption that no woman would ever ever be nasty or smart enough to abuse it, despite the fact we're meant to treat genders equally. Attitudes like this segregate and demean women.
Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home.
If these are the guidelines then maybe we need movement to teach young women about false accusations and how they've ruined the lives of actual rape victims and innocent men alike.
Personal experience of this from watching my flatmate get drunk, pull a guy at a club, sometimes go back to his but often bring him to ours, sit and have fun with him for hours, go back to her room with him, then in the morning tell us all she'd been raped and followed home.
If these are the guidelines then maybe we need movement to teach young women about false accusations and how they've ruined the lives of actual rape victims and innocent men alike.
^^^THIS, is why i personally Detest clubbing in this country and would LOVE above all else to move to a country wherein women aren't viewed as untouchable gods by the law (e.g. on the news today, some justice minister was talking about ensuring LESS women go to jail.. then feminists start yapping about 'equality between men and women'. Buffoons.).
these **** tarded rules and women out to make a quick buck by false accusing have spoilt the whole dynamic of clubbing et al
girls like these have begun to make me paranoid about the whole thing imo; like as it is, i'm terrible at telling the state of someone, let alone a drunk person who can't consent; like Everyone at the club drinks.. am i now expected to walk around with a breathlyser and a document of consent with a lawyer by my side at all times? (and i'm not even in Uni yet
) what kind of a ****ed up view.. is that!?(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Redemption?
Good point. Can men fully appreciate what rape does to a woman? Can women understand what a false allegation does to a man? Who can comprehensively state which is worse on the individual?
Well, I'm not trying to downplay what it does to a woman. But the effects are far more widespread for a man. Social ostracism, financial ruin, prison time (which may end up in rape), potential disowning from one's family. Plus you can factor in that there are no real support groups for these victims.
O
Given the choice, would you prefer to be raped or accused of rape?
I think it's a fairly simple conclusion for most people - and it's worth noting that men can be victims as well as perpetrators.
I agree with the view that false allegations are absolutely destructive to a person's life but equally I think that has to be viewed on balance against the psychological damage and unequivocal violation of personal autonomy that rape represents.
At the end of the day this has to be viewed in context, the law isn't saying that you need a 'receipt of consent' or video evidence, or that you are 'guilty until proven innocent'; the point is that if you have any doubt as to whether someone is able to consent then you shouldn't be having sex with them and that responsibility rests with you. It's exactly the same principle as the informed consent required in Medicine; you don't need proof but you need to be certain of it before you proceed and if needs be, be able to justify that decision later. Frankly, any half reasonable person should be doing this already anyway...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Redemption?
Good point. Can men fully appreciate what rape does to a woman? Can women understand what a false allegation does to a man? Who can comprehensively state which is worse on the individual?
Given the choice, would you prefer to be raped or accused of rape?
I think it's a fairly simple conclusion for most people - and it's worth noting that men can be victims as well as perpetrators.
I agree with the view that false allegations are absolutely destructive to a person's life but equally I think that has to be viewed on balance against the psychological damage and unequivocal violation of personal autonomy that rape represents.
At the end of the day this has to be viewed in context, the law isn't saying that you need a 'receipt of consent' or video evidence, or that you are 'guilty until proven innocent'; the point is that if you have any doubt as to whether someone is able to consent then you shouldn't be having sex with them and that responsibility rests with you. It's exactly the same principle as the informed consent required in Medicine; you don't need proof but you need to be certain of it before you proceed and if needs be, be able to justify that decision later. Frankly, any half reasonable person should be doing this already anyway...
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by Josh93
It's exactly the same principle as the informed consent required in Medicine; you don't need proof but you need to be certain of it before you proceed and if needs be, be able to justify that decision later. Frankly, any half reasonable person should be doing this already anyway...
Quite.
This story isn't saying the burden of proof has changed, merely that police shouldn't give up an investigation too early: “We need to tackle the iconic issues of 'no further action' and, particularly, 'no crimes' head on..."
I personally think the problem in sexual offences cases is juries. I'd advocate (no pun) the removal of jury trials and have judges-only.
Juries have been proven in empirical study time and again to make bad decisions. One feature is that juries tend to think that "someone must have done something" and fail to understand that even if an offence has been committed but there isn't the evidence to convict a defendent - they do so anyway so that someone pays.
A classic example is Ched Evans. What we have is an exploration of an extremely contentious point of law. At what point is a person too intoxicated to consent? V says she was raped by D1 and D2. The jury basically has no clue what is going on and probably does not understand the law. So they acquit D1 and convict D2, when there was probably insufficient evidence to convict either of them. Essentially, if you give V the best possible light, she was intoxicated and "thought" she had been raped - and therefore accused two people. The jury has come back with "Yes, you were raped by D2, but not D1- even though you accused them both" which makes no sense. The jury has essentially decided the issue of V's consent.
I would go so far as to suggest that the jury thought process was "We feel a little bit sorry for you, but not too much. You were all behaving badly, but D2 was behaving more badly. We'll convict him because then at least someone gets the blame for this whole mess even though there isn't really the evidence and we don't understand the law"
Juries have been proven in empirical study time and again to make bad decisions. One feature is that juries tend to think that "someone must have done something" and fail to understand that even if an offence has been committed but there isn't the evidence to convict a defendent - they do so anyway so that someone pays.
A classic example is Ched Evans. What we have is an exploration of an extremely contentious point of law. At what point is a person too intoxicated to consent? V says she was raped by D1 and D2. The jury basically has no clue what is going on and probably does not understand the law. So they acquit D1 and convict D2, when there was probably insufficient evidence to convict either of them. Essentially, if you give V the best possible light, she was intoxicated and "thought" she had been raped - and therefore accused two people. The jury has come back with "Yes, you were raped by D2, but not D1- even though you accused them both" which makes no sense. The jury has essentially decided the issue of V's consent.
I would go so far as to suggest that the jury thought process was "We feel a little bit sorry for you, but not too much. You were all behaving badly, but D2 was behaving more badly. We'll convict him because then at least someone gets the blame for this whole mess even though there isn't really the evidence and we don't understand the law"
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- lnat essay feedback
- LNAT prep
- Unconscious bias - is it time to rethink how we address VAWG?
- Students accused of rape at university bringing lawyers to hearings
- is my lnat essay bad?
- can someone give me feedback and help on my eng lit essay? (A level)
- can someone give feedback on my eng lit essay?
- Enhanced disclosure check for nursing degree
- A-Level English Language Study Group 2023-2024
- A-level English Language A/A* Advice!
- LNAT Essay
- Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police review
- Atonement question about concealment
- Please rate my lyrics 🙏
- how could anyone be pro-israel?
- Will I get prosecuted for fare evasion?
- Can Muslims practice criminal law
- LNAT Essay
- Reported a racial harassment to police but now being afraid
- Shamima Begum was made a scapegoat – we would welcome her back, say Bethnal Green res
Latest
Last reply 3 minutes ago
Official: University of Bristol A100 2024 Entry ApplicantsLast reply 5 minutes ago
I don’t know what i want to do and subject choices are coming to a closeLast reply 5 minutes ago
Would I have Student finance help if I do a Foundation Year?Last reply 7 minutes ago
Official Cambridge Postgraduate Applicants 2024 ThreadLast reply 9 minutes ago
Help - QMUL (PWC Flying Start) vs Bath (Accounting &Finance) vs UCL (IMB)Trending
Last reply 6 days ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 1 week ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 weeks ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 6 days ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 1 week ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 3 weeks ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
