Girls: what do you think of #smearforsmear? Do you avoid your pap smears and why?

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Incorrect.

Sexual Offences Act 2003 42.1.3

Sexual Assault:

(1)A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)the touching is sexual,
(c)B does not consent to the touching, and
(d)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

the police can advise the victim about the action to take against the doctor.

Reply 21

xylas

Original post by the bear

the police can advise the victim about the action to take against the doctor.

What you said before is incorrect.

"Rape"

Original post by Anonymous

I did not intend to upset anyone, and sorry if you felt scared, but she was raped.

You should reserve judgement if you don't know what happened, rather than offer you opinion on why it wasn't rape.

My point is that I don't know because I wasn't there - and neither do you, because you weren't either. My experience of these examinations both as a patient and a doctor is very far from what you have described. I don't know what her original problem was, and therefore whether a speculum examination was warranted or not. This is not to say that she is lying, but that current guidelines (about consent and chaperones etc) are in place to avoid this sort of situation, and it would be very unusual for them not to be followed. If she was very embarrassed/scared, it's possible that her interpretation of what was said was not what was intended - and that should be reported back and cleared up so they don't make that mistake again. If your friend felt that things were not explained properly to her, and the examination was unnecessary, she should complain and have it investigated.

It sounds as if you have a set scenario of how rape plays out- most of the time, it's not a violent struggle, like in the movies.

That's nice for you, but clearly, the fear of death hasn't compelled enough women and girls so far. I am suggesting the health community needs to change its approach to how it examines women's bodies, because it' clearly not working for most women.

Don't make assumptions about what I do or don't know about rape, thanks.

Intimate examinations of both genders are always going to be a sensitive issue - patients feel exposed and vulnerable, and clinicians want to try and minimise that whilst still being able to adequately investigate/treat whatever is being looked for. Smear tests do save lives, as randdom has already said, and until we find a non-invasive alternative (which frankly the "health community" would probably love as it would be easier and quicker) then done sensitively and appropriately they are the best thing we have.

Reply 24

amberskye

Original post by superwolf

I can't speak for others, but to me your repeated use of the word 'rape' to describe something entirely non-sexual (within the limits of what you've stated) is actually really offensive. :sadnod:

Rape and sexual assault are awful, emotive issues, and they should not be used to sensationalise something which to all appearances has no sexual context.

Original post by xylas

Original post by Helenia

Don't make assumptions about what I do or don't know about rape, thanks.

I agree with all of these comments.

OP, you have actually been very offensive and arrogant in this thread. Your friend may have felt uncomfortable or embarrassed during the smear test, but I'm struggling to understand how you can justify using the term 'rape' to describe what your friend told you happened to her. Throwing words such as this around in a context where they don't apply devalues the word. If the smear test was non-consensual, then this would legally be assault, as the context is not sexual.

Please be more considerate over your use of words.

Reply 25

anosmianAcrimony

Original post by Anonymous

Hi,

Re read my response to the above post. You do not know the details of her appointment, so your opinion on whether or not it is sexual assault is invalid. I'm not about to share the details of what else was said and done, it's not my place.

I'm here making a point about the way these examinations and the apathy towards them more generally.

If the general public would need more details as to what exactly took place in able to comment on this in an informed way, but you are not able to disclose those details, then perhaps a public forum was not the best place to bring your question? If we can't possibly know what happened and hence cannot form a valid opinion, why did you ask for our opinions in the first place?

And as a poster above asked, considering that you weren't there either, how is your opinion any more valid than ours?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 26

Anonymous #1

To address all comments about people who are upset by the idea that someone was raped by a doctor: if you were not there, why are you passing judgement on that at all? The fact that my friend was raped is not all this post is about, but rather than addressing the issues I raise, a couple of you seem to what to quibble over whether or not there was a sexual context. I really don't understand how and why why those of you that have, are so keen to tell me she wasn't raped, when you don't know what happened? That's not a rhetorical question, why do you feel compelled/ justified in doing this?

The general anger and animosity I am sensing from posters is exactly the reason I decided to raise the issue. You may all feel that you can perfectly rationalise the need for smear tests, and that this is enough to make you go, but the fact is, this is not the case for many girls/women. Trying to dismiss the experiences of girls/women who feel differently to you, or have had different experiences of healthcare, is not going to change this I'm afraid. I am interested in your experience, so thanks for sharing, but if you are not interested in the experiences I am sharing, or think that somehow because it's been great for you, there isn't a problem, there is no conversation to be had here.

Reply 27

Anonymous #1

Original post by Anonymous

I just want to share my recent experience to further show that what has happened to your friend is an abnormality and definitely not what happens in the majority of cases.

I have had issues with pain when using tampons since the age of around 15/16 which then went on to be pain during intercourse once I was sexually active. I have been to see the doctor about this previously and nothing was done about it. So, when it came to having my first smear done last August, I was really apprehensive. This was discussed with my GP surgery and a longer appointment was booked for me so the nurse had more time to do it. When it came to having the smear, I again suffered the pain I normally experience down below. The nurse was aware of this and tried everything she could to do the smear without causing me pain, but she unfortunately couldn't do it. I have since seen the GP and been referred on to the gynaecologist at the hospital.

Although I experienced pain, this is not a usual experience. It is due to other medical issues that have now been picked up. All the people I have seen were really patient, answered all my questions, showed me what "instruments" they were going to use, and talked me through everything that happened.

I think people are put off having their smear done because they think it is going to hurt and aren't really sure what is going to happen. This may be through lack of education regarding the process, and also bad word of mouth from friends and family. I am not sure if this is nationwide, but I certainly received quite a few letters from the local health service reminding me to come in for a smear, and each letter was accompanied by a great leaflet explaining everything. I really don't think the process is "rapey" - what happened to your friend is obviously horrible for her, but that doesn't sound normal for this procedure.

Thanks for sharing. Yes, this has been my experience too, the nurses/ clinicians have always been brilliant, so that I never really been an issue for me at all. Telling someone who has been violated this is useless though, she did not trust me for a while, even after telling me about this. Let alone trusting a clinician again. It made me see this campaign in a different light.

Reply 28

Anonymous #1

Original post by randdom

I agree that in principle performing an examination without consent is assault. However without being privy to all the details of your friends case it would be unprofessional for me to comment on her case specifically.

As do I. Fair enough, I admit that as a friend, I have chosen to believe her version of events. I am not sharing that here, I don't think it's necessary.

Original post by randdom

While it is true that in any national screening campaign there were will those for who despite the screening are missed and those who have a positive screening result who go on to have further investigations which find that it was a false positive. However the number of false positive results when looking for abnormal cells in a sample from a smear compared is much lower than for the breast screening program where you are looking for unusual appearances in a mammogram. It is not 100% when it comes to picking things up but it is actually one of our more reliable cancer screening programs. This should be something that is communicated to women before the smear test and is definitely mentioned in the literature that I got with my letter.

Well that's great then, I agree, it should definitely be emphasised. I would argue that the majority of posters on this thread did not know this, similarly to the wider populace.

Original post by randdom

While I personally don't feel that the smear test campaign that you have linked to is particularly harmful I can see why you and possibly others might feel that the imagery is inappropriate. I don't know if it would be worth emailing the charity with the concerns that you have as they might not have considered the possible interpretation of the image of the smeared lipstick?

Yes, that's something to consider. Seeing things through the eyes of someone who does not trust clinicians as a result of her experience, this campaign really jars. Helping someone through assault changes you, not to claim I can completely understand what she's feeling, but it has changed the way I see things.

It's image focused, it being about lipstick, and promoted through selfies, and rests on the symbolism of imperfect beauty due to loss of control- smudged lipstick. These are all the things I know she worries about- how she appears to boys, being taken advantage of again in random situations, like interviews, even. Whereas a smear test is meant to be a positive thing, about taking care of your health, and not a loss of control at all.

I feel that 'Smear for smear' is slightly off, when rape, sexual assault and sexual harrassment are still issues that we as a society are trying to get to grips with, there are other, more informative ways the importance of smear tests could be raised.

Reply 29

Anonymous #1

Original post by the bear

the police can advise the victim about the action to take against the doctor.

Yes, which is what she is in the process of doing.

It is not an easy process. As posters here have demonstrated, most people's first reaction is to say it didn't happen, even if they don't have all the information, and then, when they do, that somehow, it was the girl's fault.

You only have to look at TSR forum to see how girls/women's image is used against them, and assault, whether real or imagined (!) is triviliased, although this is changing. I think in this context, the smear for smear campaign, which mobilises the image of smudged lipstick and selfies, is counterproductive.

I was interested in hearing other's opinions on this, instead, all everyone wants to do is ascertain the truth of an event they know close to nothing about. All very interesting.

Reply 30

Anonymous #1

Original post by the bear

if a woman thinks she was sexually assaulted then she was. whether it is a stranger in a dark alley or a doctor in a clinic. she should report the assault to the police.

Agreed.

Reply 31

Etomidate

ITT: People being trolled.

Reply 32

Josb

Original post by Anonymous

Yes, which is what she is in the process of doing.

Nonsense.

Reply 33

superwolf

Original post by Anonymous

Because accusing someone of rape is a major issue, and not something just to be glossed over! Do you really think it's acceptable to throw that kind of term about like you have, on a public forum, where countless women (and men) who might have been raped or sexually assaulted are able to see it? How do you think a person in that position might feel, with your trivialising the term as you have (as has been said, without the information you either don't know or can't provide it's impossible to draw a final conclusion as to whether your friend was sexually assaulted, raped, assaulted or none of the above, however your ludicrous assertion that 'doctors are allowed to rape' is nothing less than an insult towards both rape victims and NHS staff!)?

Nobody wants to dismiss whatever your friend went through, but by crying rape and then wondering why people get worked up about it you're being dismissive of many more people, such as those mentioned above, as well as many posters in this thread.

Nobody is angry at your friend for wishing to complain - if she felt mistreated then it's both her right and obligation to report it. But as for your attitude, I'd call it downright disgraceful. :sadnod:

Reply 34

Anonymous #1

Original post by superwolf

Your opinion. From our experience, doctors are allowed to rape. And I think throughout the course of this thread, you and your fellow cynics have demonstrated tat it's you that are insulting toward rape victims. I have seen myself how people are inclined to support those accused of raping, rather than those saying that have been raped. It's your issue if you find it upsetting to understand that doctor's can rape, not mine.

Reply 35

Anonymous #1

Doctors can rape, and more easily get away with it. They have limited witnesses, social status, and usually, colleagues and the law on their side.

Reply 36

Ripper Phoenix

re read that OP 3 times to check for evidence of rape.

Sadly.. found none

Reply 37

Anonymous #1

Original post by Paras Agarwal

re read that OP 3 times to check for evidence of rape.

Sadly.. found none

Why are you looking for rape? No one is asking for a second opinion on rape.

This thread is about the principle of whether or not a doctor needs informed consent to insert a piece of plastic into a woman's vagina, or whether, because they are a doctor, that can do it anyway.

Why is this so difficult to understand. You are all so obsessed with trying to disprove that specific rape case, rather than discussing the principle of whether a doctor in the U.K. needs informed consent to penetrate a woman.

Reply 38

superwolf

Original post by Anonymous

Throughout this thread I have expressed nothing but sympathy for your friend. She's clearly been through a tough time. But frankly you seem to be using her experience as a stick to beat anyone who disagrees with you. That is distasteful, to say the least!

I would like to reiterate my sympathy towards your friend, and I hope she will find a way to move on with her life without being too affected by this incident. :smile: