Moderation statistics :)
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Original post by geoking
You lot may be the only people on the planet to be arguing against having more information at your disposal 
I don't know the figure, neither do you, therefore shouldn't it be found out? Or is moderating in ignorance is a good idea? 
Do you know they have access to that data or are you guessing? Yes, that's rhetorical because we both know the answer
At worst, it'll make people trust the moderation system more because it's more transparent, and therefore accountable. I really, really, really shouldn't have to be repeating that or the reasons why transparency and accountability are inherently good things. Best thing is it'll help rehaul the broken moderation system that is based on "offense".
I don't know the figure, neither do you, therefore shouldn't it be found out? Or is moderating in ignorance is a good idea? Do you know they have access to that data or are you guessing? Yes, that's rhetorical because we both know the answer
At worst, it'll make people trust the moderation system more because it's more transparent, and therefore accountable. I really, really, really shouldn't have to be repeating that or the reasons why transparency and accountability are inherently good things. Best thing is it'll help rehaul the broken moderation system that is based on "offense".
Okay, you don't know the figure. So what's your basis for there being a problem with overturns then?
It's rhetoric? Okay, guess I don't have to tell you I know they have that information then
We're already accountable to SLs and CT, as I said. Giving you guys a bunch of meaningless stats doesn't make us more accountable, and you've still not explained any particular advantage beyond 'it would be more transparent'.
Original post by geoking
X
Almost all of your posts in this thread seem to focus on how "easy" you believe this will be to implement.
The CT and the devs are the only people able to comment on that with any authority and accuracy.
You would have much more impact if you could explain how *effective* this could be. Maybe with an example or two and a case study of a forum that has this in place where it has improved transparency of modding.
Arguing about feasibility when you don't have the facts is a waste of everyone's time.
Making your case for the benefits might actually get you somewhere.
I personally don't see how knowing that x number of cards where issued for offensiveness in Jan15 would improve transparency of modding offensive posts.
Likewise knowing that y% of cards are appealed and z% of appeals are successful doesn't really surface any data that would make modding more transparent.
Lastly it has been stated repeatedly that this is common elsewhere. A couple of examples would be really helpful in demonstrating the benefits.
Original post by shadowdweller
Okay, you don't know the figure. So what's your basis for there being a problem with overturns then?
It's rhetoric? Okay, guess I don't have to tell you I know they have that information then
We're already accountable to SLs and CT, as I said. Giving you guys a bunch of meaningless stats doesn't make us more accountable, and you've still not explained any particular advantage beyond 'it would be more transparent'.
It's rhetoric? Okay, guess I don't have to tell you I know they have that information then
We're already accountable to SLs and CT, as I said. Giving you guys a bunch of meaningless stats doesn't make us more accountable, and you've still not explained any particular advantage beyond 'it would be more transparent'.
Considering the attitude of the moderators, the subjective nature of the rules and the intense training you are given, I'm going to guess that it is a problem. If it isn't, don't you think it's better to find out rather than to be ignorant of it?
If they have that information then why has no one else mentioned it, even ex workers for the CT?
So you are saying it's impossible for a behind close doors process to potentially have some sort of bais and giving the community they are incharge of more transparency wouldn't make you more accountable? Like hell it wouldn't. As one mod has already pointed out, he doesn't bother to actually state in cards issued his thoughts at the time.
If you need to know why transparency is a good thing, I'd recommend reading up on it as it helps with everything from making sure moderation isn't bais, to customer loyalty and retention. Basic business concept. What's tragic is how all you moderators aren't just arguing against my idea, but haven't even suggested how to be more transparent, showing how you really don't either understand the importance of it, or are terrified of the outcome.
Original post by PQ
Almost all of your posts in this thread seem to focus on how "easy" you believe this will be to implement.
The CT and the devs are the only people able to comment on that with any authority and accuracy.
You would have much more impact if you could explain how *effective* this could be. Maybe with an example or two and a case study of a forum that has this in place where it has improved transparency of modding.
Arguing about feasibility when you don't have the facts is a waste of everyone's time.
Making your case for the benefits might actually get you somewhere.
I personally don't see how knowing that x number of cards where issued for offensiveness in Jan15 would improve transparency of modding offensive posts.
Likewise knowing that y% of cards are appealed and z% of appeals are successful doesn't really surface any data that would make modding more transparent.
Lastly it has been stated repeatedly that this is common elsewhere. A couple of examples would be really helpful in demonstrating the benefits.
The CT and the devs are the only people able to comment on that with any authority and accuracy.
You would have much more impact if you could explain how *effective* this could be. Maybe with an example or two and a case study of a forum that has this in place where it has improved transparency of modding.
Arguing about feasibility when you don't have the facts is a waste of everyone's time.
Making your case for the benefits might actually get you somewhere.
I personally don't see how knowing that x number of cards where issued for offensiveness in Jan15 would improve transparency of modding offensive posts.
Likewise knowing that y% of cards are appealed and z% of appeals are successful doesn't really surface any data that would make modding more transparent.
Lastly it has been stated repeatedly that this is common elsewhere. A couple of examples would be really helpful in demonstrating the benefits.
If the system hasn't been made by a neanderthal, it'll be easy to implement. That's the nice thing about computers, they aren't subjective. See the above. It's amazing how it changed from "That data wouldn't be useful, you'd need this" to "Oh you can provide that?! Er, well it still doesn't matter!"
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by geoking
x
Would you be willing to answer the statement below?
Original post by PQ
Lastly it has been stated repeatedly that this is common elsewhere. A couple of examples would be really helpful in demonstrating the benefits.
OK so there's been an argument here regarding the whole "let's make mod decisions public" thing and it appears that the only people who actually want this are geoking and jimbo1234
It hardly seems worth the effort for a company to cater for just...two people - that time is better spent elsewhere.
It hardly seems worth the effort for a company to cater for just...two people - that time is better spent elsewhere.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by geoking
Considering the attitude of the moderators, the subjective nature of the rules and the intense training you are given, I'm going to guess that it is a problem. If it isn't, don't you think it's better to find out rather than to be ignorant of it?
If they have that information then why has no one else mentioned it, even ex workers for the CT?
So you are saying it's impossible for a behind close doors process to potentially have some sort of bais and giving the community they are incharge of more transparency wouldn't make you more accountable? Like hell it wouldn't. As one mod has already pointed out, he doesn't bother to actually state in cards issued his thoughts at the time.
If you need to know why transparency is a good thing, I'd recommend reading up on it as it helps with everything from making sure moderation isn't bais, to customer loyalty and retention. Basic business concept.
If they have that information then why has no one else mentioned it, even ex workers for the CT?
So you are saying it's impossible for a behind close doors process to potentially have some sort of bais and giving the community they are incharge of more transparency wouldn't make you more accountable? Like hell it wouldn't. As one mod has already pointed out, he doesn't bother to actually state in cards issued his thoughts at the time.
If you need to know why transparency is a good thing, I'd recommend reading up on it as it helps with everything from making sure moderation isn't bais, to customer loyalty and retention. Basic business concept.
So it's entirely speculative? And for the umpteenth time, mods are already accountable. How would giving users access to it make them any more so?
Because you've not actually asked about the existence of the information, just whether users should have access to it, I would presume.
Feel free to point me to where I've even remotely said that - I can assure you, you'll fail to find such a post. See my first point, we are accountable. You wouldn't have access to enough for it to make the slightest bit of difference, and an overview of stats would be meaningless to you.
I wasn't asking why transparency was a good thing. It needs to be useful information for it to be worthwhile though, and general users can't have access to enough for that to be feasible.
Original post by The_Internet
OK so there's been an argument here regarding the whole "let's make mod decisions public" thing and it appears that the only people who actually want this are geoking and jimbo1234
It hardly seems worth the effort for a company to cater for just...two people - that time is better spent elsewhere.
It hardly seems worth the effort for a company to cater for just...two people - that time is better spent elsewhere.
And I don't think I've actually seen any valid reason for making our decisions plublic either.
Stats for the sake of stats are pointless.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
Original post by samba
Stats for the sake of stats are pointless.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
might end up a bit biased though, like if a mod is doing a good job it won't necessarily be noticed who specifically is doing it by the average user, all they would see is that there isn't as many trolls around. But if a mod cards someone it will be easy for that user to go and give them a negative rep as 'revenge'
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by samba
Stats for the sake of stats are pointless.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
One nice feature could be 'moderator reputation' [with negative reputation] where each member could only vote once on whether they think a moderator is doing a good or bad job, and could change their mind once every so often. That'd quickly highlight any large discrepancy in the userbases perception between moderators, and would be just as easy to implement.
Fair idea, but would that lead to users repping or neg repping depending on whether they agreed with their ideas or how much they liked them as a person, rather than their modding abilities? If you could get around that, then it could be good
Original post by The_Internet
X.
Original post by TornadoGR4
X
Original post by shadowdweller
X.
Original post by OU Student
X.
Original post by BurstingBubbles
X.
Roll call time because you guys are arguing against basic business practice - the importance of transparency, unless of course your heroes are Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, Enron and the like.
Advantages of being transparent
- User loyalty
- User retention
- Highlights any existing problems in the forum (problem areas)
- Highlights any future problems in the forum
- Highlights any existing problems in the moderation
- Highlights any future problems in the moderation
Advantages of statistics
- Trend reports - shows existing and changes in trends
- Allows changes to be monitered to improve the problems discovered
Right so now that you can't keep on repeating what you learn in basic business, please tell me why you don't wish to be more transparent. If you do want to be more transparent, say how that can be achieved rather than dismissing the notion entirely.
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by geoking
Roll call time because you guys are arguing against basic business practice - the importance of transparency, unless of course your heroes are Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, Enron and the like.
Advantages of being transparent
- User loyalty
- User retention
- Highlights any existing problems in the forum
- Highlights any future problems in the forum
- Highlights any existing problems in the moderation
- Highlights any future problems in the moderation
Advantages of statistics
- Trend reports - shows existing and changes in trends
Right so now that you can't keep on repeating what you learn in basic business, please tell me why you don't wish to be more transparent. If you do want to be more transparent, say how that can be achieved rather than dismissing the notion entirely.
Advantages of being transparent
- User loyalty
- User retention
- Highlights any existing problems in the forum
- Highlights any future problems in the forum
- Highlights any existing problems in the moderation
- Highlights any future problems in the moderation
Advantages of statistics
- Trend reports - shows existing and changes in trends
Right so now that you can't keep on repeating what you learn in basic business, please tell me why you don't wish to be more transparent. If you do want to be more transparent, say how that can be achieved rather than dismissing the notion entirely.
Italicised ones wouldn't require transparency, just the existence of the figures within the community team.
Original post by geoking
x
Would you be willing to answer the statement below?
Original post by PQ
Lastly it has been stated repeatedly that this is common elsewhere. A couple of examples would be really helpful in demonstrating the benefits.
Original post by shadowdweller
Italicised ones wouldn't require transparency, just the existence of the figures within the community team.
So then your argument is that the figures shouldn't be public because you don't care about user retention or loyalty?
Original post by TornadoGR4
Would you be willing to answer the statement below?
If you can show how it's relevant considering different moderation styles, goals, forum audiences and so on. In short, it's a pointless tangent. Move on.
TIL not seeing why this is a good idea is equivalent to thinking transparency and accountability are not a good thing.
What if I told you repeatedly saying "This idea is good. Why are you anti-transparency? This should be obvious to you, you're uninformed and need to read up on these basics." Is not a good method of trying to convince someone your idea is good?
Posted from TSR Mobile
What if I told you repeatedly saying "This idea is good. Why are you anti-transparency? This should be obvious to you, you're uninformed and need to read up on these basics." Is not a good method of trying to convince someone your idea is good?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by geoking
So then your argument is that the figures shouldn't be public because you don't care about user retention or loyalty?
Did I say that? I was choosing to address the other points first, I thought that was apparent.
Clearly user retention and loyalty are important, but anything to support transparency (in relation to stats) actually affecting that?
Original post by geoking
If you can show how it's relevant considering different moderation styles, goals, forum audiences and so on. In short, it's a pointless tangent. Move on.
No, no, you claimed several other forums do this. All I want to know is which ones?
Original post by geoking
If you can show how it's relevant considering different moderation styles, goals, forum audiences and so on. In short, it's a pointless tangent. Move on.
So basically "Other sites have transparency, so so should we... no, I won't give examples" - surely you can see why this seems a little odd?
Original post by geoking
Roll call time because you guys are arguing against basic business practice - the importance of transparency, unless of course your heroes are Bernie Madoff, Lehman Brothers, Enron and the like.
Advantages of being transparent
- User loyalty
- User retention
- Highlights any existing problems in the forum (problem areas)
- Highlights any future problems in the forum
- Highlights any existing problems in the moderation
- Highlights any future problems in the moderation
Advantages of statistics
- Trend reports - shows existing and changes in trends
- Allows changes to be monitered to improve the problems discovered
Right so now that you can't keep on repeating what you learn in basic business, please tell me why you don't wish to be more transparent. If you do want to be more transparent, say how that can be achieved rather than dismissing the notion entirely.
Advantages of being transparent
- User loyalty
- User retention
- Highlights any existing problems in the forum (problem areas)
- Highlights any future problems in the forum
- Highlights any existing problems in the moderation
- Highlights any future problems in the moderation
Advantages of statistics
- Trend reports - shows existing and changes in trends
- Allows changes to be monitered to improve the problems discovered
Right so now that you can't keep on repeating what you learn in basic business, please tell me why you don't wish to be more transparent. If you do want to be more transparent, say how that can be achieved rather than dismissing the notion entirely.
Not sure how you think saying "we banned x people last month and y% of moderator decisions are later judged to be incorrect" is going to help with user loyalty or retention. Though admittedly I daresay about 99.9% of users simply don't care at all about this sort of thing.
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