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The Arsenal Thread XXII

Reply 980

AR_95

21

This means there is no Dortmund to draw in the CL next year at least

Reply 981

Vae

15

Original post by jam277

Don't give a ****. Thought Dortmund will be done by now anyway. They're a completely different team in the CL which is what I don't get. I don't know how they will fare against Juventus. Logic tends to Juve getting through but BVB are that team capable of a big game performance. Don't see why Arsenal should go for Hummels, a slow player in a high line suicidal system that's reliant on the keeper filling space as a sweeper keeper. Neuer made Hummels have a great world cup, much like De Gea is making these United defenders not concede.

Brb BVB get to CL final.
Brb BVB get relegated as well.
Strong everything.

Strong oversimplification. There's no evidence that suggests Hummels needs a sweeper keeper like Neuer behind him to look good or play well. Neither did Hummels only perform well in the WC, nor is Weidenfeller a sweeper keeper, so it can't explain his often undeniably great performances in the past few seasons. Instead, it suggests that he can perform well regardless of that factor.

Even if we extend this to Subotic and just generally say "he needs another player to cover space behind him" it doesn't make sense, as it neglects interdependencies inside a team. Subotic doesn't stay back to make up for Hummels' dangerous habit of going forward so much, but rather both players move in the way they do because it a) makes sense wrt team dynamics and b) allows both players to give their best traits to the team. It doesn't have to do with the limitation of one player, but with planning a working CB partnership and making the most of it. Do you think Hummels would go forward so much if the team dynamics didn't a) allow and b) require him to? By extension, this works for a whole team, including the goal keeper. Do you think Germany would play such a high line if Neuer didn't sweep so much? Hummels gets played the way he is because it's possible and makes sense in the context of what players BVB/Germany have at their disposal. Doesn't mean he couldn't perform in a different role, we don't know that. We haven't seen Hummels in a conservative role because no team was required to use him that way, so we don't know how he'd fare. When Godín played for Villarreal, few people thought he'd do well in a more defensive system with a deeper line. And as for him being slow, just because he's slow doesn't mean that every high line with him would be "suicidal". Both him and Subotic are comparatively slow, yet there are enough examples of how they dealt excellently with quick counters.

Hummels might be going through a slump at the moment, but this "Neuer/Subotic make him look good" or indirectly comparing him with Man United defenders is just dumbing him and his play and qualities down so much. And even that "slump" is something that's exaggerated so much, considering he's been struggling with injury for months and I can't think of a lot of defenders that would have performed better in this Dortmund set up. If 2013/14 Alves is defended because of Barcelona's bad defensive system (seem to remember a discussion about that...), then Hummels deserves that at least a hundred times more.

Anyway, none of this has to do with whether or not Hummels does actually fit in at Arsenal, which I suppose was the original question. :colonhash:

(edited 9 years ago)

Original post by Stefano93

Also in that list Stepanov, Squillaci probabily Francis Jeffers aswell.

What makes it worse is that in that Dortmund squad they have some world-class players Hummels, Gundogan, Reus, Aubameyang immobile etc... Champions league stardom but then suffer a defeat like that to Augsburg :frown:

Ahh yes the ''fox in box'', Wenger also bought Richard Wright that summer who completely flopped as well. At least players like that were only squad players though, Squillaci had to play because there was nobody else. I suppose in some ways Arsenal timed their move perfectly, Liverpool and United were both heavily limited by foreign owners, Chelsea had a new manager every 6 months and City weren't taken over until 08/09.

I've never known a top team decline so quickly when financial problems aren't involved. It's just remarkable.

Reply 983

username358506

20

Original post by Stefano93

Exactly this. Dortmund used to be renouned for their counter-attacking style of play but almost all teams in the Bundesliga and other leagues have learned how to play against them.

4-2-3-1 Has progressed into a diamond formation as of late but I believe their poor form is down to a lack of mentality in the club with a Manager who's failing to revamp their style of play. They made a huge mistake letting Lewandowski and Reus go, because ever since their have been injury castrated players missing huge parts of their campaign i.e. Reus and Gundogan.

The main thing Dortmund lack at the moment if you see from their games is the confidence, but I still do believe with Klopp they can stiffen up their defensive play in time and learn from this season just like Brendan Rogers at Liverpool and hope they go really far in the Champions League aswell! I was actually hoping they would smash Madrid in that close away leg fixture in the previous season haha!

Yeah, but it's not as if BVB could have kept Gotze or Lewandowski - they were always going to leave when Bayern whistled a few times and showed them the €s. Reus is a prime example of this - watch as he goes to a England or Spain and how powerless Dortmund will be in the affair.

Even if Dortmund had been able to maintain their title challenge and CL challenge, anyone will leave a club that size if a top club show interest.

I still back Dortmund to get out of the relegation zone - they're only three points from safety. But Klopp's make or break moment will be next summer, because he will have to replace the likes of Reus, Hummels, possibly Gundogan, and maybe others.

Reply 984

leinad2012

15

Sanchez confirmed out for Tottenham in the BBC ****inf brilliant

Reply 985

AR_95

21

Sanchez doesn't dictate our attacking play. The result will not be changed because of him missing the game.

Reply 986

Mackay

17

It shows how far you've come that Sanchez's omission doesn't really alter things for you.

Of course, Ozil is trusted more playing at the Emirates against teams like Aston Villa, but you have such a plethora of options - especially offensively - that Sanchez may not even be missed this weekend at White Hart Lane.

Walcott hasn't played a lot of game time over the past year, of course, but in Cazorla you have a wonderful player - perhaps the league's most in-form midfielder, actually - and Spurs will have to play a different way than they did back in October at the Emirates. They shocked Chelsea on New Year's Day, though, so it will be tricky no matter what happens.

Reply 987

angelfox

17

Alexis doesn't perform away from home anyway, and has flopped in the big games. Expect a similar set up to City away - Ox and Alexis were wasteful, don't expect the same from Ozil and Theo will keep it simple.

Reply 988

Stefano93

10

How we're going to boss Saturday:

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Reply 989

SA-1

16

Original post by Stefano93

How we're going to boss Saturday:

ImageUploadedByStudent Room1423171490.664635.jpg

Reply 990

doobucks

16

Original post by qua

Strong oversimplification. There's no evidence that suggests Hummels needs a sweeper keeper like Neuer behind him to look good or play well. Neither did Hummels only perform well in the WC, nor is Weidenfeller a sweeper keeper, so it can't explain his often undeniably great performances in the past few seasons. Instead, it suggests that he can perform well regardless of that factor.

Pressing game of Germany(+ high possession play) and Dortmund also means that he's not exposed as much. Anyway last thing Arsenal need is a slow defender, unless they get a DM capable of covering the spaces that those players will need to be covered.

Even if we extend this to Subotic and just generally say "he needs another player to cover space behind him" it doesn't make sense, as it neglects interdependencies inside a team. Subotic doesn't stay back to make up for Hummels' dangerous habit of going forward so much, but rather both players move in the way they do because it a) makes sense wrt team dynamics and b) allows both players to give their best traits to the team. It doesn't have to do with the limitation of one player, but with planning a working CB partnership and making the most of it. Do you think Hummels would go forward so much if the team dynamics didn't a) allow and b) require him to? By extension, this works for a whole team, including the goal keeper. Do you think Germany would play such a high line if Neuer didn't sweep so much? Hummels gets played the way he is because it's possible and makes sense in the context of what players BVB/Germany have at their disposal. Doesn't mean he couldn't perform in a different role, we don't know that. We haven't seen Hummels in a conservative role because no team was required to use him that way, so we don't know how he'd fare. When Godín played for Villarreal, few people thought he'd do well in a more defensive system with a deeper line. And as for him being slow, just because he's slow doesn't mean that every high line with him would be "suicidal". Both him and Subotic are comparatively slow, yet there are enough examples of how they dealt excellently with quick counters.

Maybe it's down to team dynamics, not arguing that it isn't. I can give examples of players who do that regardless of team dynamics which costs the team dearly at times. David Luiz being the prime example of this leaving Chelsea's and Brazil's whole backline(and PSG a few times this season) out to dry because of horrific positioning.

This is despite him being a very good individual defender and was partially the reason why he was moved to CM. Although I get your point wrt Godín, Luiz had pretty good games when Chelsea parked the bus so obviously you're going to be good as a reactive as well as a proactive defender if you're a professional footballer.

Hummels might be going through a slump at the moment, but this "Neuer/Subotic make him look good" or indirectly comparing him with Man United defenders is just dumbing him and his play and qualities down so much. And even that "slump" is something that's exaggerated so much, considering he's been struggling with injury for months and I can't think of a lot of defenders that would have performed better in this Dortmund set up. If 2013/14 Alves is defended because of Barcelona's bad defensive system (seem to remember a discussion about that...), then Hummels deserves that at least a hundred times more.

Anyway, none of this has to do with whether or not Hummels does actually fit in at Arsenal, which I suppose was the original question. :colonhash:

Not saying he's a terrible defender. Just don't see the value in paying 25M+ for a defender like hummels when most top quality defenders go for under 20M. Only defenders that go for around that price are those who offer a lot of versatility and a pretty genuine goalscoring threat(i.e. Dani Alves and David Luiz) when Arsenal could just buy a defender for 15M that does most of what Hummels does and just train him to get better at playing the ball if need be.

He'll get hung to dry at Arsenal due to their dire DM situation and having a dodgy keeper, if we really want to talk about set ups, Arsenal's set up has been pretty bad for a long time(despite their improved form as of late). Although I take back my words on United not needing him. Think he'll be a perfect fit for them, 3/5 atb so he's not exposed, Has a specified DM in front of him to boot, gets to roam forward as that's part of United's play and they like to play the ball out the back, again suited to Hummels. Arsenal not so much with the way they push both of their fullbacks on, have a rookie defensive midfielder, a yellow card machine and a 32 year old snail protecting him and their wingers being dodgy tracking back(bar for Sanchez and Welbeck). Koscielny is pretty beast in that setup because he has the pace to make up for any poor positioning from any of the defenders(or himself) but Mertesacker is left hung to dry.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 991

ZÃ¼rich

20

Been saying this all season but our squad depth is superior to Chelsea's in general. Take away even 3 of their first team players and they've got the likes of Rameires and Mikel making up the number. For us it's Alexis out then Walcott in. Ozil out then Cazorla in. Ramsey out then Arteta in etc etc.

Pity those ***** did some kind of deal with satan and never get injuries

Reply 992

Tom_Ford

2

Original post by Zürich

Been saying this all season but our squad depth is superior to Chelsea's in general. Take away even 3 of their first team players and they've got the likes of Rameires and Mikel making up the number. For us it's Alexis out then Walcott in. Ozil out then Cazorla in. Ramsey out then Arteta in etc etc.

Pity those ***** did some kind of deal with satan and never get injuries

Or maybe they just have a competent medical team and training methods? Word is that they don't even do heavy training and focus on tactical training more than we do.

Reply 993

Mackay

17

Original post by angelfox

Alexis doesn't perform away from home anyway, and has flopped in the big games. Expect a similar set up to City away - Ox and Alexis were wasteful, don't expect the same from Ozil and Theo will keep it simple.

City were very lethargic at the Etihad, though. Tottenham will be up for it, more intense and play with more freedom than a City side who've only beaten two sides post-Christmas.

Reply 994

sevchenko

15

Original post by Tom_Ford

Or maybe they just have a competent medical team and training methods? Word is that they don't even do heavy training and focus on tactical training more than we do.

It been proven conclusively. It's not the medical team or the training methods ffs. No former player has ever criticized the training for their injuries ever or criticised Wenger's training at all

Blaming the medical team of a top club like Arsenal is one of the most stupidest things I've heard. Our medical team is comprised of highly qualified experienced individuals with some of the best facilities to match. We brought Shad in over the summer and players have been returning faster from injuries notably Giroud, Ramsey and Ozil

Reply 995

Tom_Ford

2

Original post by sevchenko

It been proven conclusively. It's not the medical team or the training methods ffs. No former player has ever criticized the training for their injuries ever or criticised Wenger's training at all

Blaming the medical team of a top club like Arsenal is one of the most stupidest things I've heard. Our medical team is comprised of highly qualified experienced individuals with some of the best facilities to match. We brought Shad in over the summer and players have been returning faster from injuries notably Giroud, Ramsey and Ozil

Cesc, Vieira.

Reply 996

sevchenko

15

Original post by Tom_Ford

Cesc, Vieira.

Quotes?

Is their criticism related to injuries and fitness or match day preparation?

Reply 997

ZÃ¼rich

20

Yeah blaming Wenger for his training is logically unsound. Assuming his training methods havent changed significantly, in the early part of his tenure we had an excellent injury record so that cant explain the more recent farce that is our injury list. In the incinvibles season we almost always had the same 11 on the pitch for instance. Bergkamp at 36 was almost always fit even FFS.

Wenger himself puts it down to luck, maybe he's got a point to some extent. Look at Debuchy's recent injury for instance. Freak.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 998

angelfox

17

Original post by Mackay

City were very lethargic at the Etihad, though. Tottenham will be up for it, more intense and play with more freedom than a City side who've only beaten two sides post-Christmas.