Congratulations to the Greek left! The movement against austerity....

It's Troika's fault Greece is in this mess and secondly of the Greek politicians who followed the austerity measures and said yes to the memorandum. The previous parties in charge-Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Demorcracy (ND)-did nothing but destroying and shaming the country.

Now, for the very first time, a Greek government says ''no, we won't accept this economic enslavement anymore'', SYRIZA are sticking to what is good for the people of Greece. Troika doesn't like that but that's not important. What's important is to do what is right.

Sorry how is it the troikas fault that Greece overspent and overspent?

Not how old Tory are loony left by today standards.

Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies.

I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.

They aren't. But it is their fault that GDP has been thrashed, so debt:GDP is 50% higher than it was.

Fair enough Greece should be allowed to forget about the bill it racked up and like Iceland go on like it never existed. The only reason things have not escalated is that the Germans are praying that they eventually get their money back and to do so Greece's membership of the euro zone is crucial.

Greece is taking the piss.


Posted from TSR Mobile

Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies.

I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.

It's not the detail, it's more a question of the general fact that they oppose the Europe-wide and global consensus that "austerity is the only way" - this is not austerity for the rich, who have in many cases hugely boosted their wealth during the aftermath of 2008, but for the majority. This is unacceptable. People are now beginning to wake up and demand that it change.

The detail will work through and as I said, I'm sure they will face many problems. That does not mean this isn't a good day for rational, human economics against the rapacious demands of the super rich and the banking sector that represents them.

Its not just capitalism though is it?

UKIP's policies around immigration are very anti capitalism, and a lot of the reason the Greens are in the 'looney left' is about defence.

If Greece wants to default its upto them.

Its worked pretty well for Iceland, but naturally thats somewhat diffrent as they aren't in the Eurozone. The EU will make a deal (or not) that is in their best interests as will Greece.

I think UKIP are one of a number of right wing movements who have recognised the strength of the anti-capitalism current and decided to try to fake their positions to get carried along with it.

For example, whilst it is true that modern capitalism demands lower and lower wages for all (a typically non-viable and self-defeating aim, as it lowers demand but it does raise inequality, which current capitalism regards as a win) and mass immigration serves that goal, the UKIP agenda is to infect that with racism. Mass migration is a symptom of current inequality, not a cause, but UKIP identify it as a cause.

I think UKIP are one of a number of right wing movements who have recognised the strength of the anti-capitalism current and decided to try to fake their positions to get carried along with it.

For example, whilst it is true that modern capitalism demands lower and lower wages for all (a typically non-viable and self-defeating aim, as it lowers demand but it does raise inequality, which current capitalism regards as a win) and mass immigration serves that goal, the UKIP agenda is to infect that with racism. Mass migration is a symptom of current inequality, not a cause, but UKIP identify it as a cause.

So you think they are just anti immigration because of anti-capitalist sentiment?

Capitalism doesn't demand lower wages for all. It demands the market price. Footballers see their wages go ever higher due to the skill they have.

Global wages are rising and have for the last fifty years at least.

You seem to believe that the workings of contemporary capitalism are based on free markets with efficient distribution of resources separate to special interests. Far from it. The global corporations, banks and financial institutions have seized control of the political and market landscapes and manipulate them to ensure massive monopolistic and oligopolistic profits, which in turn they ensure are untaxed and boxed in tax havens beyond the reach of the people who live in the markets where the money is made.

Far from some sort of Adam Smith wonderworld, we live in a kind of modernised Orwellian reality, where Big Brother is a secretive hedge fund, corporate boardroom and rich shareholder operating from a desert island, stroking a white cat.

Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies.

I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.

The point it is getting across is that what is considered "loony left" now by the daily mail brigade etc was once perfectly normal and centrists pre thatcher and produced "the golden age of capitalism". Old Tory governments supporting a version of the mixed economy model (which makes you loony left now) were far leftists nutters apparently.

Thats lovely and all, but you haven't actually refuted my points.

Global living standards have/are rising aren't they? (even if you ignore the '1%')

Footballershave seen no cut in wages.

Even I, a public sector worker of the last 6-7 years, have seen a 65% rise in my wages since the start of the coalition almost five years ago.

Sorry how is it the troikas fault that Greece overspent and overspent? PASOK & ND are the people to blame and because of their fiscal irresponsibility the Greek people will have to pay up.


Posted from TSR Mobile

It's true that the past governments had made mistakes that were accumulated over the years and now the everyday citizens are paying for mistakes they didn't commit. However, when Troika came to Greece they were supposed to help eliminate the deficit and boost the economy. But instead of making things better, they made it even worse.

Troika is wrong by default. If they were any good, people in the private sector wouldn't get 500 euros (370 pounds) monthly salary, unemployment wouldn't be skyrocketing, people would have money to use heating. Greece is more destitute than it was before the austerity measures.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greek economy is currently growing and unemployment is falling?
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/unemployment-rate
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/gdp-growth-annual

The Greeks never had to accept the terms of the Troika. If they didn't they'd be screwed though, they should be thankful that there were institutions in place to give loans to the Greek government. The Greeks were living in a bubble that would have always popped, you can't continually go on a spending spree and expect it to go on forever. Syriza aren't going to help matters either whatsoever.. What the Greeks need is to be more competitive, and raising wages isn't going to do that.





Posted from TSR Mobile