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Plane crash: Germanwings A320 crashes in French Alps

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Are pilots routinely tested for their mental health?
Reply 181
Avatar for esbo
esbo
11
Original post by Good bloke
Yes but being prone to depression doesn't sound a good trait for a pilot, does it?


He had a good record prior to this incident.

I don't think we should demonise people with depression, this was a criminal act.
Original post by esbo
He had a good record prior to this incident.

I don't think we should demonise people with depression, this was a criminal act.


Who is demonising anyone? It was a criminal act, but it may have been brought about through illness, and pilots have the opportunity to take an awful lot of people with them if they choose to commit suicide.

As for a good record, it's been marginally blotted now, hasn't it? I'm not convinced the relatives of his victims will be very impressed with his good previous record and are likely to be asking questions about how someone with a record of depression came to be in that role and suicidal.
(edited 9 years ago)
Reply 183
Avatar for esbo
esbo
11
Original post by Good bloke
Who is demonising anyone? It was a criminal act, but it may have been brought about through illness, and pilots have the opportunity to take an awful lot of people with them if they choose to commit suicide.

As for a good record, it's been marginally blotted now, hasn't it? I'm not convinced the relatives of his victims will be very impressed with his good previous record and are likely to be asking questions about how someone with a record of depression came to be in that role and suicidal.


We do not know his motive you are assuming it was depression but this is not the sort of thing a depressed person does.

Reports from other says he was pretty normal, indeed if he had been depressed it would likely have been spotted, so it's kind of speculative to put is down to depression.

"“He was very happy. He gave off a good feeling.”

So I fail to see why people put this down to depression least not as he didn't appear to be depressed.

What if a non-depressed person did this, would we demonsie non-depressed people?


“He was completely normal. He was very happy to have his job. He was satisfied and happy. He had attained his dream of having become a professional pilot after being an amateur. He had no problems. I did not think he could do such a thing.”


"Completely normal" so lets demonise completely normal people now!!!
(edited 9 years ago)
Original post by esbo
We do not know his motive you are assuming it was depression but this is not the sort of thing a depressed person does.

Reports from other says he was pretty normal, indeed if he had been depressed it would likely have been spotted, so it's kind of speculative to put is down to depression.

"“He was very happy. He gave off a good feeling.”

So I fail to see why people put this down to depression least not as he didn't appear to be depressed.

What if a non-depressed person did this, would we demonsie non-depressed people?



"Completely normal" so lets demonise completely normal people now!!!


You obviously have an agenda to defend depressed people, even where it is not needed. The investigators would be negligent if they did not pursue the line of enquiry, if it is true that he had previously been depressed. Depression is not easy to spot and untutored comments from friends and colleagues are less than helpful.

You really ought to try to resist using 'demonise' so much, particularly where it isn't appropriate.

This whole thread is speculation, by the way - its only point.
I wish people would stop talking about this as if it's your average case of suicide. Most people who commit suicide do it alone, and the biggest thing they're guilty of is knowing how much they're going to hurt the people that care about them. Purely talking about the first officer, who killed another 149 people, just suffering from 'depression' is not only massively offensive to people who have depression, but it also shows a distinct lack of awareness of the illness and just how many people suffer from it. Given how the aviation industry is at the moment and the general lifestyle of airline pilots, you'll find a higher proportion of pilots suffer from it than average in the population, very, very few of them will be 'suicidal' and an even smaller proportion would even entertain the thought of taking so many other people down with them.
Original post by Noble.
I wish people would stop talking about this as if it's your average case of suicide. Most people who commit suicide do it alone, and the biggest thing they're guilty of is knowing how much they're going to hurt the people that care about them.


What is an average case of suicide?

Purely talking about the first officer, who killed another 149 people, just suffering from 'depression' is not only massively offensive to people who have depression, but it also shows a distinct lack of awareness of the illness and just how many people suffer from it.


The place seems to be full of people concerned solely with avoiding offence to depressed people. The idea that the subject cannot be sensibly discussed is ridiculous, particularly in the context of an apparent suicide by a pilot with an apparent previous history of depression.

Huge numbers of people suffer from depression and up to 15% of people suffering from depression die by suicide, apparently, and one of the biggest suicide risk factors is depression. Identifying pilots with the illness seem pretty crucial to me, and the industry makes great efforts to do so.
Original post by Good bloke
What is an average case of suicide?



The place seems to be full of people concerned solely with avoiding offence to depressed people. The idea that the subject cannot be sensibly discussed is ridiculous, particularly in the context of an apparent suicide by a pilot with an apparent previous history of depression.

Huge numbers of people suffer from depression and up to 15% of people suffering from depression die by suicide, apparently, and one of the biggest suicide risk factors is depression. Identifying pilots with the illness seem pretty crucial to me, and the industry makes great efforts to do so.


Average case of suicide? For one it isn't taking down 149 other people with you.

It's blindingly obvious the guy was depressed. I have no problem with it being 'sensibly' discussed, the problem I have with it is people only talking about depression, as if it's not unusual for someone suffering from depression to want to kill themselves along with a load of other people. The guy had much more wrong with him than mere depression. As I said, depression is not that uncommon among pilots, the lifestyle and pressures are pretty much an unwritten recipe for depression.
No one can prevent them from happening. Whatever will happen,will happen. Because there are always some uncontrollable things in the world. We can die at any time... anywhere.
Original post by skunkboy
No one can prevent them from happening. Whatever will happen,will happen. Because there are always some uncontrollable things in the world. We can die at any time... anywhere.


That is complete nonsense. Many events can be prevented. In this case, for instance better staff monitoring and two-man flight deck policy might have prevented the tragedy.
Original post by Good bloke
That is complete nonsense. Many events can be prevented. In this case, for instance better staff monitoring and two-man flight deck policy might have prevented the tragedy.


Might have. You can never rule out evil acts. Who's to say he couldn't have evaded such 'better staff monitoring'?
Original post by Noble.
Average case of suicide? For one it isn't taking down 149 other people with you.

It's blindingly obvious the guy was depressed. I have no problem with it being 'sensibly' discussed, the problem I have with it is people only talking about depression, as if it's not unusual for someone suffering from depression to want to kill themselves along with a load of other people. The guy had much more wrong with him than mere depression. As I said, depression is not that uncommon among pilots, the lifestyle and pressures are pretty much an unwritten recipe for depression.


I do agree, I think it's a scary thing to start pointing to depression as being the 'cause' of something so terrible. Clearly most people who are depressed do not go out and kill a large number of other people as they commit a carefully planned suicide involving lying to one's colleagues and hiding the true facts about one's emotional state.

There is something truly manic about what this man did and I think we have to conclude a deep-seated mental illness and personality disorder. It may be very difficult to pick some of those things up, but clearly airlines are trying to - just, in this case, not well enough.
Original post by MJK91
Might have. You can never rule out evil acts. Who's to say he couldn't have evaded such 'better staff monitoring'?


Who indeed? Tell me, do you leave your door unlocked when you go out of your home on the grounds that a burglar might anyway be able to circumvent the locks? :rolleyes:
Original post by Good bloke
Who indeed? Tell me, do you leave your door unlocked when you go out of your home on the grounds that a burglar might anyway be able to circumvent the locks? :rolleyes:


No and at what point did I advocate not doing anything?

You said it was *******s that it couldn't have been prevented, but provided no proof that it could definitely have been prevented. That's all. You will never stop all bad things happening... there are simply too many ways to **** things up. Human evil knows no bounds.
The BBC has this now:

Alps crash co-pilot Andreas Lubitz hid the details of an existing illness from his employers, German prosecutors say.

They said they found torn-up sick notes in his homes, including one covering the day of the crash.

In their report, Duesseldorf prosecutors did not say what illness Mr Lubitz had.

German media have said internal aviation authority documents suggested he suffered depression and required ongoing assessment.

Prosecutors said there was no evidence of a political or religious motive to his actions, and no suicide note was found.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32087203

It looks like the forensic evidence taken away earlier must have been the sick notes.
Reply 195
Avatar for esbo
esbo
11
Original post by Good bloke
You obviously have an agenda to defend depressed people, even where it is not needed. The investigators would be negligent if they did not pursue the line of enquiry, if it is true that he had previously been depressed. Depression is not easy to spot and untutored comments from friends and colleagues are less than helpful.

You really ought to try to resist using 'demonise' so much, particularly where it isn't appropriate.

This whole thread is speculation, by the way - its only point.


Turns out he was bullied, a far more likelier explanation than depressions.

He was also about to lose his job, a far more likely explanation.
Reply 196
Avatar for esbo
esbo
11
Original post by Good bloke
What is an average case of suicide?



The place seems to be full of people concerned solely with avoiding offence to depressed people. The idea that the subject cannot be sensibly discussed is ridiculous, particularly in the context of an apparent suicide by a pilot with an apparent previous history of depression.

Huge numbers of people suffer from depression and up to 15% of people suffering from depression die by suicide, apparently, and one of the biggest suicide risk factors is depression. Identifying pilots with the illness seem pretty crucial to me, and the industry makes great efforts to do so.


Well it seems the opposite, it seem efforts to identify depressed people and make them lose their job is the real reason, ie the 'solution' is the problem.
Original post by esbo
Well it seems the opposite, it seem efforts to identify depressed people and make them lose their job is the real reason, ie the 'solution' is the problem.


Both sides have legitimate cases, that's what makes it hard.
Those who don't have it want those who do to be identified and have their suitability for certain jobs questioned.
Those who do have it don't want to be fearing for their jobs, looking over their shoulders the whole time, exacerbating the situation.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Original post by Drewski

Those who do have it don't want to be fearing for their jobs, looking over their shoulders the whole time, exacerbating the situation.


Do you not think people with physical or mental conditions that compromise the safety of large numbers of people owe a duty of care to the people whose lives they are responsible for and should either not undertake such jobs or do so under medical supervision?
Original post by esbo
Turns out he was bullied, a far more likelier explanation than depressions.

He was also about to lose his job, a far more likely explanation.


All I have seen is that he was teased about having been a flight steward and called Tomato Andy. That sounds like very mild bullying, if it constitutes bullying at all.

If he has a medical condition that compromises the safety of lots of people it is right that he should be under scrutiny and, in the final analysis, lose his job if necessary.

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