I'm in mid 20s, did arts degree became a teacher, don't like it, what else can I do?

That is so far from the truth. No, I was not selective. I'm not going to list off my CV to tell you what I've done since graduating but I've worked a wide variety of non-grad jobs varying from zero hours contracts, temp roles, part time roles...I could go on. In every situation I did it to 'get my foot in the door' and work my way up but the most relevant role I had (my first job after graduation) I was made redundant from - that wasn't something I selected. I was not 'selective' - I wasn't in a position to be.

Also, I didn't mention what work experience I have so I don't know how you come to the conclusion that I have 'no specific work experience'.

People can take or leave my advice about degree types, it's no skin off my nose. I'm offering it so that others don't have to go through what a lot of arts grads are experiencing at the moment. I wasn't posting any of that so that armchair judges like you can pick apart my attempts to find work - I've worked very hard since graduating (and whilst at uni) so my efforts are not what should be put under the microscope here.

Here's the real issue that no one wants to discuss:

People need to wake up and have real discussions about the high rates of graduate unemployment/underemployment and stop putting their heads in the sand by trying to place the blame on the graduates themselves. There's an underlying issue and it stems from past governments trying to get a larger amount of young people into university which has led to 6th forms/colleges encouraging young people into university regardless of the degree course which puts pressure on 16/17 year olds to make very big decisions which will affect them hugely once they graduate.

Young people need to make more informed decisions about degree types and they don't seem to be getting much advice at school because schools only care about pushing them through the process and into the next level of education. We're all just pushed along a conveyor belt.

Someone somewhere needs to speak some truth and since I am (and many of my friends are) products of this system, I feel I'm pretty well informed due to my experiences. If people choose to ignore what I have to say, as I've said, that is absolutely fine by me, it's their life. However what I won't stand for, is when people decide to to turn it around and say people like myself have been 'hyper selective' in our job search. Not only is that an insult to what I've been through and to what every other unemployed/underemployed grad (who is willing to do any work) has been through it also show a massive naivety and lack of understanding of the current economic situation and the circumstances that many grads are finding themselves in.

Usually, I would have replied quite briefly to your post but having read and heard similar things being said over the years by journalists and in general internet comments I feel the need to say that your comments are part of the problem.

Until people stop blaming grads themselves (that is SO easy - you don't have to look at individual cases, you can just blanket judge them as workshy etc) and actually look at what is happening and has been happening in this country politically, educationally and economically then the problem is going to go on and on and young people are going to continue to end up in Jobcentres the day after donning their mortar board and gown.

Seemingly everyone wants to continually stick their heads in the sand and blame the graduates themselves insinuating that that are too haughty to take a shelf stacking job or something along those lines (again, an easy thing to say about a group of people who can't respond unless you talk to them individually). So, from my individual perspective: I worked as a sales assistant on min wage a year after graduating. I've done various other similar 'entry level' roles including packing boxes in a warehouse on a zero hour contract.

It has never been a matter of being 'hyper selective' and people need to stop resorting this as an explanation for graduate unemployment/underemployment because it's an insult to people like me who have worked all manner of jobs/worked for free/worked overtime/volunteered/done unpaid internships/work placements/returned to education etc and still find themselves signing on or stuck in entry level roles often years after graduating.

There is a lot more that I could say about why this is happening but the information is already out there and I've already touched on it - people just seem to choose to ignore it.

Just for a little perspective, if anyone cares to actually look into this (I'd advise any one choosing a degree to read some of this):

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/nov/19/half-recent-uk-graduates-stuck-jobs-ons

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lmac/graduates-in-the-labour-market/2013/sty-graduates-in-the-labour-market.html

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2014/05/08/unemployment_and_the_class_of_2014_how_bad_is_the_job_market_for_new_college.html (Not UK, but worth looking at)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10459957/Almost-half-of-university-leavers-take-non-graduate-jobs.html
Comments section worth a read on this e.g:






Note: Without getting heavily into the politics involved in this issue, let's just say this: I have no political preference and I don't regularly buy any particular newspaper.

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/nearly-40-of-graduates-still-hunting-for-jobs-six-months-after-leaving-university-9135958.html




So anyway, to summarize - I think this is actually the bigger problem Kingstannis, not my alleged 'hyper selectiveness'.

Yes, it's takes a lot more effort to say all this than 'you must just be too picky about jobs' but that's usually the case with the truth - it's not as simple as a quick remark. (By the way, don't you think that if someone couldn't find graduate work after 3 years they might have already considered - long ago - looking for other types of work/building up experience?)

If more people weren't so lazy as to generalize, we might be able to get started on solving this dreadful state of affairs.

"unless you plan to teach afterwards (at whatever level e.g. doing a PGCE or pursue a PhD) or as I say above, use your degree simply as means to get into generic grad roles/the armed forces etc then there isn't much point in studying a degree in it."

I've always wanted to do a BA in Philosophy; this is discouraging

Just thank god that u read this thread before doing that crap degree. When u apply dont ever look in the humanities faculty

Posted from TSR Mobile

I was going by your comment about not wanting to go into generic jobs

II mean, that's a fairly large chunk of the graduate job market (every "mundane job") you've ruled yourself out of to be fair.

IWhen I do my history degree I will get experience by working in a menial role as retail assistant or shelve stacker, and relentlessly search for opportunities to shadow some junior manager (I'll go up to one and offer him £200 to follow him about for one week or something. I know I'd accept that offer) and after graduation get a generic retail management job. Then I'll either work my way up or i'll move to something else with experience that i could apply to most other roles. That's unless i decide to do something else like accountancy, teaching or law.

(I'll go up to one and offer him £200 to follow him about for one week or something. I know I'd accept that offer)

That's unless i decide to do something else like accountancy, teaching or law

Yes, but you're taking one small comment I've put here which is actually directed at the OP as advice and you're assuming it's what I've done with my life which is incorrect. I applied to hundreds of grad schemes in 2011/12 before/after I graduated. After so many rejections (recession, competition etc!) I realised I was putting so much effort into schemes that I began to realise were nothing special. You can become a store manager with a few years of experience and NO DEGREE. So I started working in retail when I finally got a job offer. Then my company went into administration, hello redundancy. Just because I offer someone advice saying ''not worth doing XYZ'' grad job doesn't mean I ruled it out for myself before I'd graduated or soon after. I was pursing all of those things 3 years ago!! I'm no longer a 'recent' grad so I can't apply to them and nor would I want to now because I've decided to go back to uni and do something I enjoy which is more employable.

You're just filling in the gaps of my life and reading what you want to read rather than asking me or considering that I have actually gone down certain paths before turning my back on them.


Again, you're making stuff up! I never ruled myself out of them, I applied to hundreds of them and if you actually care to read my posts properly I WORKED in them too. I was giving advice, based on my experience (i.e jobs I worked in!!) of those 'mundane jobs'.



You say that as if no other grad has ever done that or thought of doing that. I worked whilst I was an undergrad, a lot of people do. It doesn't guarantee anything afterwards and as I say, if you want to be a retail manager, you don't need a degree.

I'm either talking to a troll or a complete idiot, probably both. That is not how the world works and you really don't need to pay someone in retail to get 'shadowing' experience.



That's exactly what I'm warning against. You're going to do a History degree with no idea of what you really want from it and those are completely different fields/careers with completely different post grad studies - you have no clue at all do you?

Law, by the way is incredibly expensive to study post grad and even after your GDL & LPC you are not even guaranteed a pupillage. Most are lucky to get into a high street firm and the pay can be just as low as working as a retail supervisor. I love how some people who have never gone to uni/never really researched seemingly 'prestigious' careers think that subjects such as Law will be a gold mine.

You're out of touch and you obviously have low levels of reading comprehension since you make completely abstract deductions about my life based on what little I've written about my employment history. Either that or you're trolling, genuinely can't tell.

You specifically said "no thanks". You cannot distance yourself from the comment

if it doesn't apply to you just admit you weren't being completely clear. I'll admit I assumed too much from your comment.

Sure, many graduates do that. It seems to work for the 85% of grads doing my degree in my university who get employed doing a managerial or professional job within 6 months.

I'm not saying that all experiences are good, but clearly, not all experiences are bad either. You're painting it like if you get an Arts degree you'll never get a good job; statistically, that's just not the case.

All such jobs I've looked at require a degree. And quite frankly, with the crappy job market being as it is, can you really afford to rule your self out of all jobs that require a degree, when graduates will be competing for non graduate jobs too?

You have a better chance of landing a given job with a degree than without one, all other things being equal.

By mentioning those other careers i was just mentioning that i had options. I'm aware of the law situation.

I'm not distancing myself from it at all, in fact I'll spell it out for you:

I do not want to apply to a graduate sheme to become a retail manager as I have worked in retail since graduating and it's not my preferred sector. I don't know how many times I have to say it but I'm going back to university to do a more relevant degree to my career aspirations - why on earth would I waste my time applying to retail grad schemes now? Been there, done that - hence 'no thanks'. It's not that complicated.


No, I'm not a child, this isn't a game of tit for tat. I stand by everything I've said including that I won't apply for grad retail scheme at this point in my life and that you make assumptions by filling in the gaps in my posts.

You're naive and have little experience of the working world if those statistics impress you - to be honest I was pretty much the same before my degree. Did you get those stats from unistats? Does it clarify what counts as 'professional'? Because many low paid admin/public service jobs fall into that category and it's nothing to get excited about at all.

e.g Take a look at this for example:

https://unistats.direct.gov.uk/subjects/employment/10006840FT-K0287/ReturnTo/Search

Look at the pie chart for 'employment after six months'. Look at how many students they aquired that data from. 40. That is not representative (this year they have 135 places available: http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/undergraduate/courses/history/history.aspx) plus that's only one university, it doesn't represent all History grads.
Not everyone responds to those surveys and keep in mind what I said about 'professional' roles.
You seem to take such data at face value which is naive and not a good way to decide on something that will have a big impact on your life. But you seem pretty adamant so, genuinely, good luck to you if that's what you think it the right choice for you (I just wouldn't advise basing such a decision on unistats).

What statistics are they? Unistats?! I'd advise you read through some of the aritcles I posted including the one from the Office for National Statistics.

I'm not saying you shouldn't do a degree. I'm saying you should choose wisely and question why you're doing whatever degree you're doing. Plus, a lot of those graduate jobs that you get into with 'any 2.1' can be attained by working your way up the ladder in the work place (which you could do in the 3 years it takes to graduate) the difference is only the 'graduate' prefix in the job title.

Having a History (or any other non-vocational degree) will do you more harm than good when you try to apply to non-grad work if you fail to get a grad job as many people do. So you end up in a catch 22. Do you know how difficult it is trying to get an employer to take you on as admin/retail/bar/cleaning staff etc when you have a degree? Because to them, it's more reasonable to take on a school leaver with experience or someone with customer service/admin/cleaning NVQs/experience who is likely to stick around a while rather than someone with a 2.1 who they see as liable to quit as soon as they find something better. You end up in the 'overqualified' pile of applications and as I say, in a catch 22 where you can't get a grad job and can't get a non-grad job. Or try leaving your degree off your CV and explaining a 3 year gap. It's not so easy.

No you don't (see above).

Theoretically, you have options, but once you try to put those options into practice you'll realize it's not as straightforward as saying 'History (insert other arts degree) can lead to XYZ'. All of those options require further time, money and study - not everyone can afford that and even if they can it does not guarantee that A) That they will succeed on that path B) That they will enjoy it (OP is a case in point of this).

If you were really passionate about Law/Accounting/Teaching then you wouldn't be thinking of them as 'options' after your degree. They would be your choice now, so I personally don't see how you will suddenly develop a passion for them (which is pretty much a requirement for all of those if you want to make it through the post grad studies) whilst studying History. It's more likely that if you take one of those paths you will take it out of necessity, therefore, you could save yourself 3 years, a load of money and a load of studying and choose now.

This whole time I've basically been saying that people should choose employable/vocational degrees in the current economic climate and after talking to me you've conceded that you're considering your 'options' (Law/Accounting/Teaching) for after your degree. Don't you see why I find that ridiculous?

It shows that you actually don't know what you want right now - that is absolutely fine but if you don't know then why go to uni? Go when you know if you want to be a Teacher/Accountant/Lawyer. Get work experience, research the careers etc. Going to do History comes across as a delaying tactic and that's what I'm warning against - don't go to uni just because everyone else your age is going or because it's the done thing. Go when you have a clear a idea of what you're going their for. You currently have four (Retail/Law/Teaching/Accountancy) completely different ideas.

But as I say, it's your life and good luck with it (sincerely). I'm just putting all of this out there, people can take from it what they like from it because no one gave me the honest truth before I embarked upon my degree. By the way if someone wants to do History because they REALLY want to teach it afterwards or they want to do a History PhD then that's a different story and my views are different. I'm not saying ''guys don't ever do an arts degree at all'' - do it if you know what you're doing it for. If your chosen arts degree doesn't lead directly to a career but you really love it then consider studying it in your spare time OR if your family are incredibly rich/have great contacts, go for it. Otherwise, study a vocational degree.

We've been de-railing this thread for a while too....

Look; fair enough I misrepresented your post and fair enough the graduate market is tough if you're not qualified for specific areas. But I've heard just as many anecdotes about people being very successful with such degrees as such scaremongering stories. I have researched my options with this degree; after graduation won't be easy but i refuse to accept that i'll never get a good job with it.

Well OP atleast u are still in uour twenties u can do anything

Posted from TSR Mobile

Look; fair enough I misrepresented your post and fair enough the graduate market is tough if you're not qualified for specific areas. But I've heard just as many anecdotes about people being very successful with such degrees as such scaremongering stories. I have researched my options with this degree; after graduation won't be easy but i refuse to accept that i'll never get a good job with it.

On the WRONG side of the 20s now (yes, there is a right side to be on)

Just a final comment - what I've written here is not and was never intended to be 'scaremongering' - it's actually my real life, (and that of others), experiences and lessons learned from those experiences - I say it all in good faith with only the intention that it might help others make a more informed decision regarding their education/career. Take from it what you will. I genuinely wish you good luck and hopefully the grad market has improved by 2018/19.

Did you ever look into Law? I mean, that's sort of one practical application of being a trained pedant from Philosophy. Tax law would also similarly appeal to my cynical nature. Only issue is that it's a bit expensive and I can't really afford it. With something like the tax thing above, I don't have qualifications in finance / accounting.

£20,000+ (18935)
£40,000+ (8399)
£60,000+ (2187)
£80,000+ (545)
£100,000+ (186)

But if it was something a graduate was passionate about and they had pretty decent A-levels/Uni degree and a fair bit of cash, then yes it would be well worth doing.

I have mediocre A levels results AABa and went to a mediocre RG redbrick. I'm working part time / freelance but I have no savings.

There's just got to be a better use for talents developed during a Philosophy degree than to mercilessly troll people online.

Look; fair enough I misrepresented your post and fair enough the graduate market is tough if you're not qualified for specific areas. But I've heard just as many anecdotes about people being very successful with such degrees as such scaremongering stories. I have researched my options with this degree; after graduation won't be easy but i refuse to accept that i'll never get a good job with it.

several reasons.

1) connections
2) they did something really impressive CV wise at uni, miserable retail jobs won't cut it. I'm thinking more a summer interning in Morgan Stanley or shadowing a cabinest minister.
3) they have a particular skill unrelated to their degree subject. Eg having the salesman skills to sell an Eskimo snow.

they acheived it INSPITE of their degrees.

Y
So... degree subject doesn't matter. Having internships (not necessarily at Morgan Stanley), positions of responsibility, strong soft skills and determination to get the job is what lands you an offer.

Most students do absolutely nothing but get their 2.1 and work a part-time job and then wonder why they're unemployed - they then start complaining at the government/society/parents for encouraging them to do a degree. The people who get onto graduate schemes are the ones who targeted those graduate schemes during their degree. I can guarantee that everyone in this thread complaining about the graduate labour market and degree subjects do not have an internship, did not proactively pursue a career during their 3 years and only started seriously considering their future career once they had graduated or in final year.