13 civilians - including women and children- slaughtered in Saudi -Arabia strikes

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Is Islam Homophobic?

are muslims who choose to follow Islam following a homophobic religion?

But yes it is acceptable to me just like it would be acceptable to me to call BNP members racist

And as the OP is about one group who could kill me for being me killing another group who would kill me for being me then my original point still stands

I don't care

Let's be honest, homophobia is not an Islamic problem. The majority of the world looks down on homosexuality, it's nothing new. They may not be as vocal as the world major religions though.

Reply 121

TheCynicalChild

Based on what, the story of Lut? Because I explicitly explained my stance on that. Sharia Law is also very open to interpretation like any Law is, there are many different methods to interpretation. Apostasy, innovation and worthy of punishment? Which punishment then? What's the punishment for apostasy?

I'm not feeling ashamed, I'd never feel ashamed of my opinions. What I am ashamed is that someone who labels themselves as a Muslim like you is so narrow minded and unwilling to speculate about their religion and it's adaptability throughout time. I am a Muslim by all means, I'll defend my religion and I have, but that doesn't mean I won't think for myself regarding laws and blindly follow other people's interpretations of it.

Reply 122

Good bloke

Original post by al_94

They are not bastards because as long they have a Islamic marriage then it is valid in Islam.

Well, no. The only marriages recognised in the UK are civil marriages and those carried out by Anglican churches. Children born outside such marriages are automatically bastards. If a marriage takes place at a mosque it is either a civil marriage or not a recognised marriage, the former being subject to the laws of bigamy.

Reply 123

Wahid1

Very disappointing.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 124

young_guns

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Is that the same drone programme that has killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan, often apparently indiscriminately, for example, when wedding parties are targeted?

You are confused. Indiscriminate is when you are using weapons pretty much without even designating a target. Just shooting in a particular direction without caring who it hits. Clearly that is not what is happening in the case of US/UK military operations in the Middle East.

As to the incident involving the wedding party, that was a tragic accident. In fact, that attack was conducted by ordinary manned military aircraft. If they had been using drones, it is considerably less likely that such civilian casualties would have been incurred.

It's a strange thing when right wing people in the UK support things that Saudi Arabia does, given that they are usually hostile to that government.

Is that the best you can do? Just throw the accusation that I'm "right-wing" at me? I'm a member of the Labour Party and a fabian socialist.

You seem to believe that because Saudi Arabia is involved, it is axiomatically wrong. I can't stand the regime in Saudi Arabia. But unlike the Houthis, they don't have on their flag the words "Curse on the Jews". The Saudis aren't actively seeking to destroy Israel or attack it, unlike the regime in Tehran and its Houthi proxies.

Apparently if the Saudis are engaged in warfare, that's fine, as it involved big bombs and air strikes, which is exciting, yes?

Really? I mean, really? Have you descended to that level of childish pop psychology crap that whenever someone supports a military operation, it must be because they like guns and explosions and have a small penis?

When someone starts making arguments along those lines, it's usually a good indicator that they have a second-rate intellect and an astonishing lack of sophistication and understanding of nuance.

How do we really know what's going on in Yemen?

Do you deny that the Houthis have on their flag "Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews"?

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 125

young_guns

Original post by TheCynicalChild

That's a darn fine comment, TCC. Duly gemmed.

I really hope it's the more sophisticated and nuanced adherents of Islam like you who will be its future. I have to believe that's the case because that seems to be the trajectory of all religions (despite the admitted slow progress); toward more tolerance, more understanding, less prejudice.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 126

Aj12

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Is that the same drone programme that has killed hundreds of civilians in Afghanistan, often apparently indiscriminately, for example, when wedding parties are targeted?

It's a strange thing when right wing people in the UK support things that Saudi Arabia does, given that they are usually hostile to that government. Apparently if the Saudis are engaged in warfare, that's fine, as it involved big bombs and air strikes, which is exciting, yes?

How do we really know what's going on in Yemen? I certainly don't trust the version of facts there that we receive from US and UK news sources.

What makes you doubt what the media are saying?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 127

PopaPork

Original post by al_94

Yeah it's not recognised in UK but they can still do an Islamic marriage. They are not bastards because as long they have a Islamic marriage then it is valid in Islam.

Sorry but that's not true

an Islamic marriage is not recognized in the UK without a valid marriage certificate

as you have to comply with UK law my point still stands

Reply 128

PopaPork

Original post by uer23

Let's be honest, homophobia is not an Islamic problem

Err yes it is. :rolleyes:

Or do I need to post pictures of 'my kind' hanging from cranes to prove this to you?

Reply 129

PopaPork

Original post by TheCynicalChild

Just when I thought you were beyond hope

repped as it is deserved

Reply 130

young_guns

Original post by al_94

Yeah it's not recognised in UK but they can still do an Islamic marriage. They are not bastards because as long they have a Islamic marriage then it is valid in Islam.

Technically and legally, they are bastards.

Why are their parents unable to simply marry in the ordinary, legitimate, respectable way?

Reply 131

young_guns

Original post by uer23

The majority of the world looks down on homosexuality, it's nothing new.

Of course such a statement requires context.

In the advanced areas of the planet, homosexuality is widely accepted and homosexuals are accorded due legal protection as citizens of those countries.

In more backward, undeveloped areas of the planet, there are still high levels of ignorance and superstition, so many people do hold onto such beliefs.

As countries develop from backward, superstitious **** holes into advanced liberal democracies, rights for homosexuals (and other groups) generally follow

Let's be honest, homophobia is not an Islamic problem.

No, it definitely is. Out of all the countries in the world, only Islamic ones kill homosexuals with state sanction. This is a natural outgrowth of their undeveloped and pathological cultural attitudes toward sexuality, and gender segregation, which causes high levels of sexual contact between straight males (much like a prison) and corresponding shame and mental illness that is channeled into state-sanctioned homophobia

If you want to understand more of the psychopathologies surrounding the prevailing Islamic attitudes to women and homosexuals, read this article called "Kingdom in the Closet" where an American woman investigates this problem in Saudi Arabia

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/05/the-kingdom-in-the-closet/305774/?single_page=true

Yasser (my gay guide) turned onto a side street, then braked suddenly. “Oh ****, it’s a checkpoint,” he said, inclining his head toward some traffic cops in brown uniforms. “Do you have your ID?” he asked me. He wasn’t worried about the gay-themed nature of his tour—he didn’t want to be caught alone with a woman.

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 132

young_guns

Original post by Aj12

What makes you doubt what the media are saying?

Posted from TSR Mobile

I also wonder what makes her doubt the Houthis and not take them at their word when they plaster on their flag, "Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews"

Reply 133

al_94

Original post by TheCynicalChild

So do you agree with punishments as described in the Qur'an such as public flogging for fornication?

Reply 134

string56

Original post by TheCynicalChild

Sharia law is not something ambiguous there's no as hassan put it hard core sharia or liberal sharia

Original post by HassanD

That's just how it is. There is no such thing as a hardcore sharia law, it's just Sharia law and no versions to it and I stated just that, no point in lying?
]

There's only a single interpretation (not mine or some scholars but Allahs and muhammads (pbuh) interpretation) of sharia formulated by the quran and hadith not by your westernized morality that is explicitly Clear both violent apostasy and homosexuality is a sin in islam worthy of punishment, this has been the case for centuries in the vast majority of the muslim world in all the schools of thought of both sunni islam and shia islam.

It is only now wwherethe muslim world is weak that the highly powerful and influential western world is trying to impose their morality ( that sanctions homosexuality) in the Islamic world. What your essentially saying is that muslim world for 14 centuries, the quran and hadith, the scholars, the schools of thought of both sunni and shia islam for 14 centuries have been misunderstood on the topic of homosexuality and you an insignificant tsr user with all due respect just happen to get islam (on its homosexuality Stance) right with your out of nowhere "I'm a qualified scholar" homosexuality is okay.

You essentially have a tough hill to climb if you think you can challenge the historical and correct interpretation that islam is against homosexuality and punishes it both inthis world and the next. you do acknowledge this, right?- that homosexuality has historically been condemned and punished in islam in the vast majority of the muslim world for time?

Do you have any evidence backing your claim that islam is okay with homosexuality? Go to mecca, go to egypt go to al azhar, go to the ISOC thread and you'll see that homosexuality is a sin in islam and condemened, the only ambiguity is the punishment i.e. prison,exile, execution.

You should really go to the ISOC thread you'll see that islam is not okay with homosexuality. Inshallah you don't lose faith in islam and sorry if i assumed you were ashamed of islam.

http://islamqa.info/en/811
http://islamqa.info/en/38622

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 135

string56

Original post by al_94

So do you agree with punishments as described in the Qur'an such as public flogging for fornication?

Yes i do this is Allahs (swt) law, his objective law that non Muslims with thier subjective law cannot deny

Reply 136

string56

Original post by PopaPork

Just when I thought you were beyond hope

repped as it is deserved

Just realized your an apostate a gay apostate, Astagfirulla, what made you leave other than islams Stance on homosexuality? And will you ever consider becoming a muslim again?

Reply 137

PopaPork

Sorry to disappoint but never been a muslim (thank your god) so no forgiveness needed nor sought

Reply 138

TheCynicalChild

Original post by al_94

So do you agree with punishments as described in the Qur'an such as public flogging for fornication?

Not in this day and age. I would understand it back then in those days but society's different now.

If there was a single explicit interpretation of Islamic statute, there wouldn't be any debate but there's a hell of a lot of debate and different schools of thought-which debunks your statement.

Again, what punishment is there for apostasy? Because I've searched for one and there isn't one anywhere in the Quran or reputable Hadiths. I've seen sayings regarding people at the time who under a guise accepted Islam for malicious and harmful purposes that threatened the community of Muslims but that doesn't apply to people in this day and age who harbour no malice towards Islam or Muslims and simply just don't agree. The main thing God stresses is that humans have free will-that is the choice to do whatever we want.

Insignificant TSR user? The whole point of debate is to discuss and share views and that's exactly what I'm doing. This is my opinion regardless of whether you like it and accept it, or not. I never said I was ever significant and resorting to petty insults like that isn't gaining you favour.

Your use of 'Western' a lot seems to suggest that Muslims are at odds with 'The West', and that you have some sort of agenda against it. I regard myself as a European through and through (born, raised, educated) and that has never conflicted with my religion. The media constantly tells me Islam is violent and destructive-do I take that to heart? No, because I am and know Muslims that are nothing like that. If I was in a Muslim country (which btw are sometimes much worse and much more hypocritical than 'The West') I know I most likely wouldn't be allowed to think freely for myself. It's a sad truth, and not one that I'm making up since I have been to plenty of Muslim countries. The Muslim world is weak because we don't allow this kind of critical freedom of thought anymore-remember the times of Avicenna? He criticised and speculated on issues such as metaphysics and went on to become a highly regarded philosopher, and that's when the Muslim world was at it's strongest. I never claimed or acted like I was a qualified scholar, I just gave my opinions. Also a point noting on, this glorious Muslim world you're speaking of? The Ottoman Empire ended at a time when it had turned it's back on tolerance and acceptance of other faiths, just saying.

I'm not challenging THE historical or 'correct' interpretation. I study Law and one of the first things I learned was that statutory interpretation is very subjective. What evidence do you have that your interpretation is the correct one? Have you taken context into account? People rarely do. If context was taken into account people would realise that many 'laws' are adaptable and not stuck in stone. Take Jihad for example. Back in the old days, Jihad was encouraged because there was actually an enemy for the Muslims (enemy as in legit wanted to kill them because of their beliefs), but 'Jihad' nowadays? Where's the enemy? Who wants these people dead? The innocent civilians and people they kill that have no idea why they're dying in such a brutal way? A saying can be plucked from the days of Mecca that explicitly says 'kill the enemy' but contextually, it just doesn't fit into our society. Contextually, it has no meaning for us in our modern day.

I never claimed Islam was okay with homosexuality. I claimed I am. I don't represent the entirety of Islam but thanks, I'm flattered. Mecca, where there's a corrupt monarchy? Egypt, the place where civil war raged across the country? Why would I go to ISOC if it's full of 'insignificant TSR users'? But you said there was no ambiguity in Sharia Law?

Well, you did tell me that TSR users are insignificant, so I guess I'll listen to your advice.

Reply 139

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Aj12

What makes you doubt what the media are saying?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Well for example the media here seems to be covering the Saudi raids as if they are attacking Al Queda (and several posters in this thread seem to be buying that line) whereas Stratfor, for example, poses a much more complex reality.
https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/saudi-arabia-and-iran-compete-yemen

My main point is that when a corrupt, wicked dictatorship and self-serving aristocracy like the Saudi government engages in war, it isn't very likely that they are doing it on the side of decent folk and democratic values. The other recent place where they intervened, Bahrein, is a case in point - the Saudis acted there to crush protests for greater democracy.

It's depressing to see such a government being cheered on by alleged socialists or left-leaning people on TSR, they should know better.