The Arsenal Thread XXII

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Doesn't mean he'll work better in our starting XI, Welbeck won't hit the standards of goalscoring and assisting that Walcott has in the past but he's shown to be less of a fluctuating player and plays for the team a lot more which is what we need right now, and which is what is working. While what Walcott does, he does to a very good standard but he offers little outside of that and cant adapt to tactical changes like I think Welbeck can. It's good that we have both options regardless though, lets us mix it up.

Wrt. Wilshere I think he can take over from what Cazorlas doing right now, he's got the attributes to do it but needs to develop a chemistry with players around him especially Ramsey and that'll only happen with consistent game time.

Depends on what role you're talking. If you mean Cazorlas current role of half CM half No10 then yeah I guess Wilshere could fit well there. I dont think he'd ever be able to take over Cazorlas traditional role of playmaker as Wilsheres style of play is too direct.

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Reply 7361

al_94

Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest

Nobody was complaining about Walcott when he scored 21 goals in 43 games in the 2012-2013 season. I don't think we can really judge him he's barely played this season and last season he got injured also. If he does stay he should be a starter over Welbeck next season and if he fails then you can throw Welbeck in.

Reply 7362

difeo

Original post by AR_95

I've been reluctant In the past to accept that we had the best midfield in the league (on paper) but after considering the work we've done with Giroud, just imagine the amount of goals we could score with an actual world class striker up front..

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Carrick > Coquelin
Herrera = Ramsey
Mata > Cazorla
Di Maria = Sanchez

You win on depth

Reply 7363

ZÃ¼rich

Is Mata better than Cazorla?

hhhmmmm

Reply 7364

Kim-Jong-Illest

Original post by AR_95

Welbeck does well out wide because he carries the ball forward into the box better than our other attackers. His problem Is that once he gets into the box he usually leaves the pass or shot out too late and it goes wide of the bar. Hes quite an intelligent player none the less (or more so then people make out to be) but the end product is severely lacking. There are times where his touch is God awful to hence I've called him an older version of Sanogo essentially.
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Yeah agree with this, Welbeck is especially tactically astute, he knows when to drop back or put pressure on the fullback etc. which is why i feel less nervous with him there (probably less excited too though). His first touch pisses me off more than his composure.

Original post by AR_95

Yeah his current role. All depends on understanding between him and Ramsey though because he can dribble past players all day long with ease but if Ramsey isn't making the right runs or he's not making the right passes then its pointless.

Original post by al_94

Wasn't complaining, i'm a big fan of Walcott and never said he wasn't capable of being a tremendous player. Just said that Welbeck is a better fit with the team dynamic and tactics employed at the moment. I've also already said that I'm not judging him yet and that i'm basing it on both players skillsets.

Reply 7365

fallen_acorns

Original post by difeo

Carrick > Coquelin
Herrera = Ramsey
Mata > Cazorla
Di Maria = Sanchez

You win on depth

lol. your always good for a laugh

Reply 7366

AR_95

Original post by difeo

Carrick > Coquelin
Herrera = Ramsey
Mata > Cazorla
Di Maria = Sanchez

You win on depth

Carrick >
Ramsey>
Cazorla = Mata this season if not better
Sanchez >

Reply 7367

difeo

Original post by fallen_acorns

lol. your always good for a laugh

what do you disagree with exactly

Reply 7368

difeo

Original post by AR_95

Carrick >
Ramsey>
Cazorla = Mata this season if not better
Sanchez >

If you're having Cazorla level with Mata based on this season you also have to have Herrera above Ramsey based on this season, can't have it both ways.

Reply 7369

AR_95

Original post by difeo

If you're having Cazorla level with Mata based on this season you also have to have Herrera above Ramsey, can't have it both ways.

Well they're unfair comparisons in the first place lol.
Coquelin has had the better season by far but is he even similar to Carrick?
You didn't include ozil>fellaini for some reason either lol

Reply 7370

difeo

Original post by AR_95

Well they're unfair comparisons in the first place lol.
Coquelin has had the better season by far but is he even similar to Carrick?
You didn't include ozil>fellaini for some reason either lol

Coquelin's had a better season than Carrick uwotm8?

Because Fellaini wouldn't be in our first choice midfield on paper and Ozil wouldn't be in yours, unless you'd have him over Cazorla

Reply 7371

ZÃ¼rich

Original post by difeo

Coquelin's had a better season than Carrick uwotm8?

Because Fellaini wouldn't be in our first choice midfield on paper and Ozil wouldn't be in yours, unless you'd have him over Cazorla

lol your entire team is built around Fellaini FFS :laugh:

Reply 7372

difeo

Original post by Zürich

lol your entire team is built around Fellaini FFS :laugh:

strong understanding of the conversation

Reply 7373

fallen_acorns

Original post by difeo

what do you disagree with exactly

Carrick > Coquelin
Herrera = Ramsey
Mata > Cazorla
Di Maria = Sanchez

ok.. lets start with carrick > coq

tackles per game:
Coq - 3.5
Carrick - 1.4

Interceptions
Coq - 3.8
Carrick - 1.7

Clearances
Coq - 3.7
Carrick - 2

I would agree with you that carricks offensive game is far better then coqs, he gets dispossessed less, has better distribution, better key passes etc. - but thats because you are comparing a CM to a CDM.

Its quite simple with these 2, carrick is the better alround central player.. but coq is by far suppirior defensivly at the moment..

Overal, and not specifically this season, I would take carrick though

---

Ok next:

Harrera = ramsey.

Lol. no.

Not yet.

Overal this season ramsey has 8 goals 6 assists, to herrera's 7 and 4, admitadly though, ramsey has played more games.. but he also has more key passess per game then herrera.

Issue comes that due to injuries and wenger, ramsey has been shoved all over the pitch this season, playing as a defensive midfielder for 11 of his aperances.. and out on the wing for 2. - and yet still posts marginaly better attacking stats then herrera. I will give you that ramsey is dispossesed more though..

issue here is the same as carrick vs coq - whilst they are close this season.. ramsey has history on his side, and harrera is still only in his first season in the PL, and has only just became a regular (similar to coq) - ramsey though posted: 10 goals and 8 assists last year, dispite injury.. and was one of the best players in the league.

So overal,

Ramsey > herrera

---

Next up is the most tricky for me..

I am a really big mata fan.

mata: 9 goals, 4 assists, 1.3 key passes, 0.6 sucessful dribbles,

Cazorla: 7 goals, 10 assists, 2.1 key passes, 2.5 sucessful dribles

The goals and assists are about equal.. 17 vs 13, but cazorla has played more games..

But cazorlas contribution to the team is much much larger.

Tackles: 1.7 for cazorla vs 0.9 for mata
Interceptions 1 for cazorla vs 0.7 for 0.7 for mata
Clearances 0.7 for cazorla vs 0.1 for mata

Those coupled with the suppiror key passess and sucsessfull dribles for cazorla, really does go to show that his alround game, this season has been better then mata.

Mata, is amazing in the final 3rd, but his stats prop up that his overal game, especially defensivly is really not all that great.

Cazorla though has posted similar attacking stats, with much better alround game.. DESPITE playing more of his games in a deeper role then mata, often as part of a midfield 2, covering deffensivly.

So for this season: Cazorla > Mata.

Overal? I am really not sure.. Mata was amazing at chelsea, but his alround game just has not lived up to his numbers infront of goal. and there is a reason he has been dropped by multiple coaches now.

---

Final one.

Lol.

This is where you made me laugh

In La Liga - Di Maria was better then sanchez. hands down.

But lets talk about english football here.. They both joined PL clubs for big fees, and they both were given ample starts, playing attacking roles.

Di Maria: 4 goals, 10 assists, 2.1 key passes, 1.9 successful dribles

Sanchez: 19 goals, 9 assists, 2.3 key passess, 36. sucessful dribles

The only negative stat for sanchez is that he gets disspossesed far to much..

Other then that it is not even close.

Sanchez form may have dropped in the 2nd half of this season.. but he has still posted absolutly unbelievable 1st season stats, and is rightly nominated for player of the season.

Di Maria, cant even get in the united team, and has what 1 goal in 2015?

At present, in the PL, it is un questionably:

Sanchez > Di Maria

--

Now, lets not get into that half these comparisons are innacurate with half of these players playing in different positions, but overal.. I would say that you have hugely over estimated the united players.. and the numbers behind it just dont add up to your evaluations of this season

(edited 9 years ago)

Reply 7374

Kim-Jong-Illest

Original post by difeo

Coquelin's had a better season than Carrick uwotm8?

would say so yeah. debateable though as they play completely different roles.

Reply 7375

Pimped Butterfly

Dunno why you guys didn't see the bait when he said Di Maria > Sanchez

Reply 7376

difeo

Original post by fallen_acorns

So we agree on Carrick-Coq.

With the others you were keen to bring in defensive stats yet you ignore them completely with Herrera-Ramsey... I wonder why. Because Herrera wins comfortably: http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2014/2015/ander_herrera/126/126/1538/0/p|premier_league/2014/2015/aaron_ramsey/126/126/377/0/p#interceptions/blocks/clearances/defensive_errors#90 so given you only put Ramsey slightly above him attacking wise, Herrera's defensive stats make up the difference so Herrera = Ramsey it is.

Mata-Cazorla is close this season, I'd probably even agree that Cazorla's been better, although you have to remember Mata's been taken in and out of the team, shoved out on the wing etc. But given you used "Ramsey has history on his side" to put him above Herrera, I will do the same to put Mata above Cazorla as surely you agree there's not much of a comparison there.

Di Maria-Sanchez, well first of all I'd say your goal + assist stats are misleading given Sanchez has played 2400 minutes to Di Maria's 1500. As you can see here http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2014/2015/ángel_di_maría/126/126/1846/0/p|premier_league/2014/2015/alexis_sánchez/126/126/1581/0/p#goals_scored/pass_completion/key_passes/assists/chances_created/successful_take_ons_%#90 Sanchez wins but it's not a huge difference.

Anyway of course Sanchez has been better this year. But you say yourself Di Maria was hands down better in Spain, where they've both played far longer than England. So I think I was being very fair when I looked at their 3/4 years in Spain, where Di Maria was better, and their one year in England where Sanchez was better, and said they're about equal overall.
You've decided to dismiss their past and base it just on England because that suits your argument, but how often do we see players at new clubs/in new leagues struggle at first before hitting form? Looking towards next season, which I assumed was the point of the original discussion, I see no reason to laugh at Di Maria being considered about equal to Sanchez.