Which feminist views do you agree with? Ultimate feminism poll!

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Chicken.M.

i voted voted for yes means yes because I thought it meant if bother people consent you can have sex.

Didn't know it was this big complicated thing about making it harder for men to defend themselves lmao.

Reply 21

MarriageSucks

Original post by tinasaf4

4. Do we live in a "rape culture"? Yes. Any culture that teaches how not to get raped instead of not to rape is a rape culture. The culture treats rape victims in a horrific way that can only be described as a rape culture.

Men are already taught not to rape, just like we are taught not to murder or steal. There are a few rotten apples who ignore the law and what they were taught. "Teach men not to rape" is a ridiculous suggestion.

Besides, 60% of rapists apparently come from fatherless homes. (http://www.photius.com/feminocracy/facts_on_fatherless_kids.html)

If you want to reduce rape you should reduce single motherhood and promote the traditional, nuclear family. Instead, feminists have damaged the traditional, patriarchal family, creating a scourge of single mothers and their rapist-spawn who ignore the fact society despises rape.

Reply 22

Usernamer555

Original post by boods8897

What exactly is patriarchy? And rape culture. I hear them getting thrown about a lot but normally just be radical 'feminists'.

Posted from TSR Mobile

It's kinda the culture we're in right now where around 1/4 of young women report being sexually assaulted, and a growing number of young women (particularly teenage girls) say they have been coerced/ pressured/ forced into sexual acts (I'll find the newspaper article in a sec). [Which is sexual assault].

It's this culture where people think a man's 'right' to the sexual pleasure he might get from viewing stolen images of naked women is more important than a woman's right give consent and choose who sees her body (take the reddit celebrity photo 'scandal' and the huge number of websites dedicated to sharing images that were taken or shared without the subject's consent). The women are often blamed for this, because they're "sluts" or "they shouldn't connect their phone to the internet in the first place" or "they should have known that the guy was creepy".

It's the culture where TV journalists think that a man's 'right' to be a premier league football player on a huge salary- in a position of trust, power and influence- is more important than a woman's right to give consent to sex. (Ched Evans story).

And it's the every day culture we live in where if a man lewdly wolf whistles at a woman (basically saying "I don't care how intimidated I'll make you feel, it's my right to show my 'approval' and get my own kick"), then she's expected to 'take it as a compliment'.

I could go on! That's what rape culture is, in a nutshell.

Reply 23

TorpidPhil

Original post by ChickenMadness

As if there are not enough false positives with regards to male rapists as it is...

Reply 24

MarriageSucks

"Innocent until proven guilty" is an age-old enshrined right in most countries - until feminists come along and want to make it "guilty until proven innocent" regarding men and the crime that's perhaps the easiest to falsely accuse someone of. :rolleyes:

Reply 25

minor bun engine

1. Would you call yourself a feminist?
No

2. Does the Patriarchy exists, and does it oppresses women?
No

3. Is the gender pay gap due to sexism and discrimination towards women?
No

4. Do we live in a "rape culture"?
No

5. Should promiscuous women be equally well-regarded as promiscuous men? Should we get rid of the "sluts vs studs" double standard?
No

6. Do you support "Yes Means Yes" laws regarding sexual consent?
Yes

7. Do you support affirmative action (e.g. gender quotas or lowering of standards for women) to get more women into underrepresented fields?
No

8. Do you believe in equal opportunity for both genders?
Yes

Reply 26

scrotgrot

1. Would you call yourself a feminist?
No. Being a feminist - even an egalitarian one - rests on a particular historiography and often a particular political position which I absolutely reject, even as I agree with many of the positions they take.

2. Does the Patriarchy exists, and does it oppresses women?
No. This is part of the above thing I object to. The patriarchy is merely that set of power structures under which we live, which can comprise men and women and which oppresses men and women in many ways, more non-gendered than gendered. There were very good and rational reasons for particular rules governing male-female relationships and conduct in society which are now outdated, mainly due to the welfare state, technological advances, and shifts in the economy.

3. Is the gender pay gap due to sexism and discrimination towards women? Or is it due to other reasons, e.g. men work longer hours, take fewer breaks from their careers, work in more difficult or riskier fields which are better compensated, etc?
The gender pay gap does not exist for women who entered the workplace after 1990. Mandatory equal parental leave is the only measure which still needs to be introduced. This will allow women to have children earlier and then we can all see the 1990 thing is a permanent change rather than just the fact that these women aren't yet 40.

4. Do we live in a "rape culture"?
Of course not. Rape itself has always been seen as the single worst crime after murder and rapists have always been vilified in the strongest possible terms. In truth, "rape culture" is mainly an emotionally arresting term used to shame men for being attracted to women's bodies. There are a few issues around sexual harassment and intimidation of women, but that has almost nothing to do with rape.

5. Should promiscuous women be equally well-regarded as promiscuous men? Should we get rid of the "sluts vs studs" double standard?
Yes. Men are generally not well regarded for being promiscuous, and certainly not if their sexuality is expressed in any way which emphasises the maximisation of their pleasure. For men, it's all about doing their duty, getting notches on the bedpost and "performing" in bed for the woman. Think of the double standard whereby a man who uses sex toys or chats up strange women is seen as a pervert while a woman who does the same is seen as fun. And this isn't even considering how men are shamed for being virgins. Women are also shamed for a large variety of their sexual endeavours and preferences, usually by other women. For both genders, sexual expression should be free and unfettered, because with the welfare state, contraception and abortion there is no real adverse effect to the community from promiscuity.

6. Do you support "Yes Means Yes" laws regarding sexual consent?
Absolutely not. "Yes means yes" means enthusiastic consent. It is unclear exactly what is expected: we have visions of having to ask the woman, "Are you sure this is OK?" before each thrust and have her responses notarised by a watching solicitor. It is quite clear when consent is refused, or when women are incapable of giving it, and women should not be denied their agency and made into victims by saying they're all too meek and scared to say no, roll over or resist if they don't want it. A large problem with it is it's impossible to implement on a legalistic level and so is likely to lead to a presumption of guilt.

7. Do you support affirmative action (e.g. gender quotas or lowering of standards for women) to get more women into underrepresented fields?
Absolutely not. There was a viable justification for an era of quotas around the 1980s and 1990s in order to accelerate the process of empowering women in the workplace, but that is now very passe. There are now no institutional barriers preventing women from accessing whatever jobs they want to do; and furthermore, as I say above, there is no indication that women beginning their careers after 1990 are in any way disadvantaged. The reason for the glass ceiling is because to be at the top you usually have to be old. Some of the men at the top began their careers before even the Equal Pay Act was a glint in Barbara Castle's eye; the women simply have worse CVs. As for the old boys' club, that is quite as discriminatory to men as it is to women (see the point about the patriarchy).

8. Do you believe in equal opportunity for both genders?
Of course: everyone believes in equality of opportunity, and all the indicators suggest women absolutely have it. Equality of opportunity is of course almost entirely a consideration for the economic and institutional sphere and is not a meaningful concept in social or sexual relationships.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 27

scrotgrot

Original post by Usernamer555

Well I could say I've been sexually assaulted (once had someone wave their dick in my face) and coerced into sexual acts (I've often eaten out my girlfriend without really wanting to). These surveys which report massively high percentages always conflate serious sexual assault with things like minor sexual harassment, even things like cat-calling, and the sort of coercion seen with trafficked prostitutes is conflated with someone's boyfriend doing a bit of wheedling.

Such statistical manipulation cheapens massively the issue of sexual assault, but of course it's a great recruiting tactic for the feminists.

It's this culture where people think a man's 'right' to the sexual pleasure he might get from viewing stolen images of naked women is more important than a woman's right give consent and choose who sees her body (take the reddit celebrity photo 'scandal' and the huge number of websites dedicated to sharing images that were taken or shared without the subject's consent). The women are often blamed for this, because they're "sluts" or "they shouldn't connect their phone to the internet in the first place" or "they should have known that the guy was creepy".

General objections based on privacy cover this. What's immoral is to disseminate a stolen picture of a naked celebrity, not to disseminate over a picture of a naked celebrity :wink:

If you think taking a naked photo of yourself or having one taken in itself makes you a slut then you are obviously an idiot, but this moral judgement shouldn't be conflated with the actual objective crime of hacking into someone's private pictures and certainly shouldn't be conflated with innocent men having a **** over the pictures.

It's the culture where TV journalists think that a man's 'right' to be a premier league football player on a huge salary- in a position of trust, power and influence- is more important than a woman's right to give consent to sex. (Ched Evans story)

Nobody thinks Evans has a right to play in the Premier League whether rapist or not (that would largely depend on how good he is at football). But he and others certainly have a right to carry on a career after they have served their time, like all other criminals.

Of course, the high profile in the media and lack of anonymity for ordinary men accused of rape means they will lose their chances of ever working again, whether innocent or guilty. The legal system is supposed to take care, like God, of the judgement and punishment of criminals and then there is no need for popular vilification and mob justice. But feminist stridency has only added to the natural pre-existing appetite in our society of exacting mob justice on rapists.

And it's the every day culture we live in where if a man lewdly wolf whistles at a woman (basically saying "I don't care how intimidated I'll make you feel, it's my right to show my 'approval' and get my own kick" :wink:

, then she's expected to 'take it as a compliment'

Nobody thinks this is OK, but it's clearly not rape and shouldn't be referred to in the same breath. While rape may also be about power, so are plenty of things. It's an egregious and insulting category error to conflate cat-calling and rape.

The "rape culture" meme is in large part emotional language used to dress up things that may be issues but are really not that serious and get young women outraged in the name of feminism.

Reply 28

Usernamer555

Original post by scrotgrot

Well I could say I've been sexually assaulted (once had someone wave their dick in my face) and coerced into sexual acts (I've often eaten out my girlfriend without really wanting to). These surveys which report massively high percentages always conflate serious sexual assault with things like minor sexual harassment, even things like cat-calling, and the sort of coercion seen with trafficked prostitutes is conflated with someone's boyfriend doing a bit of wheedling. Such statistical manipulation cheapens massively the issue of sexual assault, but of course it's a great recruiting tactic for the feminists.

.

It's not okay for someone to put their penis in your face if you don't want them to- you don't need to play that down. And it's not okay for your girlfriend to coerce you into doing things you don't want to do- you don't need to play that down. We need to live in a world where people realise that this is not "normal" or "okay", and talking about it doesn't "cheapen" the issue. We need to have a culture where fun, enthusiastic, consensual sex is the norm (which I really f*ing hope it is)- not this sliding scale of coercion and/or manipulation that seriously hurts people. It is a big deal, it's not okay.

Yes, sex trafficking is perhaps much more serious than someone having their boobs/bottom grabbed at a nightclub (which is scarily common). That doesn't mean that the person who was assaulted at the night club has any less right to feel **** about it and get help. And that doesn't mean that the person who did it can be excused because (congratulations!) they're not technically a rapist. All these things, whether you like it or not, are on a nasty spectrum and carry similar themes. Yes- maybe a bank robber is a worse criminal than the person (unknown) who recently stole my bank card and driving licence on the train. That doesn't mean I didn't have a right to feel angry about what happened, and that doesn't excuse the criminal(s) that did it.

Original post by scrotgrot

What's immoral is to disseminate a stolen picture of a naked celebrity, not to disseminate over a picture of a naked celebrity :wink:

I can't quite believe how much you're belittling the seriousness of those incidents. And, unfortunately, you seem to think it's perfectly normal and okay to do so. It's not anyone's right to see another person's naked body if they don't have that person's permission. Stealing photos from someone's phone is the equivalent of breaking into the garden, climbing up the wall, and staring through the bathroom windows. It's a serious invasion of privacy and boundaries. On a further-down end of the spectrum, but would you have sex with a woman who you knew had been trafficked and forced into the sex trade? No- because you'd know that you were adding to the demand, making traffickers think that they need to keep exploiting and abusing her and more women. Men who "disseminate over" stolen images of women know that they are adding to the demand for these pictures and ruining more and more women's lives- and sense that they own their bodies and sexuality. There's nothing "innocent" about it- the internet is brimming with images of women who have consented to their picture being taken, so these men can get their 'fix' without adding to the number of women who feel violated.

Original post by scrotgrot

Most criminals, who have committed far lesser crimes, are never able to return to work and are forced to live a life on benefits.

Yes- I agree, Evans should be able to be employed. He shouldn't, however, be given the privilege that many non-rapist men (i.e. normal men who are also good at football) can only dare to dream of having, and shouldn't be placed in a strong position of influence and power where he is likely to abuse this again. He also only served half his time, and has never shown any remorse for his crime. The woman he did this to, as well other women and victims of rape, should feel safe in a country where men who do these things aren't excused and allowed to live a life of privilege after causing someone so much hell.

Original post by scrotgrot

it's (catcalling) clearly not rape and shouldn't be referred to in the same breath. While rape may also be about power, so are plenty of things. It's an egregious and insulting category error to conflate cat-calling and rape.

It's basically about intimidating women, forcing them to listen to/ receive sexual advances- and saying "I don't care how threatened you feel- I only care about my right to make you feel like an object, which makes me feel better about my ****ty life/ luck with women". It's on the same spectrum- albeit a while away- from serious sexual assault, they have the same basic idea behind it. And, if a woman stands up for herself or refuses his advances, it can very often turn very nasty. Perhaps this is a sign of a stronger connection between the two incidences than either of us want.

Reply 29

MarriageSucks

Original post by Birkenhead

Very interesting that the only option men are more supportive of than women is both genders having equal opportunities.

This is almost certainly because more men have answered the poll.

Here are the results so far in percentage terms, assuming that 100% of men and women agree that everyone should have equal opportunity (because nobody has posted otherwise in this thread) and hence that the numbers for question 8 are the numbers of men and women who have answered the poll.

1. 28% men and 50% women call themselves feminists

2. 24% men and 44% women agree there is a Patriarchy that oppresses women

3. 14% men and 56% women agree that sexism is responsible for the pay gap

4. 10% men and 56% women agree with live in a "rape culture"

5. 48% men and 72% women want to get rid of the sexual double standard

6. 21% men and 56% women want "Yes Means Yes" sexual consent laws

7. 0% men and 33% women want affirmative action to increase female representation in underrepresented fields

Keep the answers coming please TSR! This poll is affirming the goodness of humanity: everyone supports equal opportunity but the vast majority of men and roughly half of women don't agree with the crazy ideas of radical feminazism. :borat: