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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

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Original post by ExcitedPup
I agree. Israel can hardly be blamed for the fact that the Arabs repeatedly resorted to violence, and then found to their dismay that the Israelis are bloody tough soldiers


In the news again today. Nasty Israelis launch artillery strike in response to rocket attacks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/israel-gaza-air-strikes-rocket-attack
Original post by MatureStudent36
In the news again today. Nasty Israelis launch artillery strike in response to rocket attacks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/israel-gaza-air-strikes-rocket-attack


It's astonishing to me that leftists seem to think that Israel should just take it.

The fact that Israel pulled out of Gaza, and forcibly evicted its settlers, is the reason the conflict has become so violent. When they had a strong army presence and settlers, no group would have been able to wage that kind of campaign as Hamas has.

And they could also send in the army to enter particular neighbourhoods in the strip, quickly and in force, arrest a terrorist and egress just as quickly. Now that they no longer control that ground, the only way they can surprise a terrorist is from the air with a missile. The only way to retaliate quickly against a launch is to fire back

Israel did the right thing and pulled out of Gaza; its reward is being bombarded by thousands of rockets and then criticised by mindless leftists when they justifiably retaliate
Original post by golden tribe
Well if jews can play victims and they kill gays and abuse children, so can palestinians


Oh dear, the Nazi wants to speak.
Original post by ExcitedPup
It's a point-of-view, and it's one that is worthy of being heard. The extreme aggression of pro-Palestine agitators on campus is starting to take on anti-semitic and Islamist overtones.


Starting? It's been going on a long time.
Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I won't get back. Pretty blatant propaganda, little hint of even a nuance, and over the course of the video became just about everything it claimed to be against....

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As someone who is coming at this debate from a neutral point of view, I am neither Jewish, nor Muslim, I have no axe to grind and no reason to support either side.

Looking at the bare facts of the situation, I find it almost impossible to feel anything other than extreme sympathy for the Palestinian people.

Take out of the equation who might be right or wrong, in terms of Hamas, or the Israeli government, there are a group of innocent people who are being killed and are pawns in a disgusting battle in which I feel either side would willingly see the other obliterated off the map.
Original post by Huskaris
As someone who is coming at this debate from a neutral point of view, I am neither Jewish, nor Muslim, I have no axe to grind and no reason to support either side.

Looking at the bare facts of the situation, I find it almost impossible to feel anything other than extreme sympathy for the Palestinian people.

Take out of the equation who might be right or wrong, in terms of Hamas, or the Israeli government, there are a group of innocent people who are being killed and are pawns in a disgusting battle in which I feel either side would willingly see the other obliterated off the map.


If you looked at a prison without any context, without any thought to right and wrong, you would come to the conclusion that the inmates are being terribly oppressed by the guards. That is why context is so important.
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
If you looked at a prison without any context, without any thought to right and wrong, you would come to the conclusion that the inmates are being terribly oppressed by the guards. That is why context is so important.


A prison with innocent children in it should be knocked down. Like I said, there is wrong on both sides, but there is a large population of poor, disenfranchised people, who are dying as a result of two groups of posturing morons.
Original post by ExcitedPup
Oh dear, the Nazi wants to speak.


So, speaking against indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians, and children makes one a nazi/jew hater?
The hesbera is strong with this one!
Original post by Huskaris
A prison with innocent children in it should be knocked down. Like I said, there is wrong on both sides, but there is a large population of poor, disenfranchised people, who are dying as a result of two groups of posturing morons.


I was not making an analogy. I was speaking of an actual prison, and saying that if you saw an actual prison, and looked at it without context or thought of right or wrong, then you would think that it was unfair oppression. But it wouldn't be.

Then I was using that to draw the conclusion that you need to consider context and right and wrong.

If you see a child crying, you can say, "all I know is that a child is crying and it needs to stop." But you don't know if that child is crying because someone hurt him, or if he's crying because he was trying to take another child's toy and his mum made him stop. Context context context.


If you want to work more with the prison analogy, you could look at the kids who don't have a parent at home because the parent is in prison for murder. That child is an innocent who is suffering. But that doesn't mean you should let all the murderers out of jail. Again, this is not a direct analogy. This is just explaining, in a different context, how just because innocents are impacted doesn't mean it's not just and necessary.
Original post by AdvanceAndVanquish
I was not making an analogy. I was speaking of an actual prison, and saying that if you saw an actual prison, and looked at it without context or thought of right or wrong, then you would think that it was unfair oppression. But it wouldn't be.


It might well be (and indeed, I'd say that in many cases, it is). It depends on what exactly prison treatment is like, and what crime the prisoners are being incarcerated for, at the very least. If you want to take it to a more indirect level, you could furthermore consider what prison structure and prisons say about the society more generally.
Original post by Al-farhan
So, speaking against indiscriminate killing of unarmed civilians, and children makes one a nazi/jew hater?


What are you talking about? I was responding to this comment

Well if jews can play victims and they kill gays and abuse children


It is basically completely made-up lies about Jewish people. You think that is not anti-semitic?
Original post by Huskaris

Looking at the bare facts of the situation, I find it almost impossible to feel anything other than extreme sympathy for the Palestinian people.

Take out of the equation who might be right or wrong, in terms of Hamas, or the Israeli government, there are a group of innocent people who are being killed and are pawns in a disgusting battle


Regarding that, don't you think it is a relevant consideration that the only reason Israel is now being bombarded by Hamas rockets is because they did the right thing in 2005 and completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip, pulled all the soldiers out, forcibly evicted the Israeli settlers at great political cost, to hand it over entirely to the Palestinians as a first step / peace gesture with a view to moving on to a West Bank disengagement next.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

And then their reward for pulling out of Gaza is to see it fall to Hamas, who immediately start bombarding Israel with rockets. Do you not think that is a relevant consideration here? Do you not have any sympathy for the extraordinary difficulty Israeli policy-makers are in when they are under rocket bombardment; they can either do nothing, in which case it just gets worse, or they can retaliate and unfortunately civilians will be killed. What do you propose they do?
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by anarchism101
Well, that's 30 minutes of my life I won't get back. Pretty blatant propaganda, little hint of even a nuance, and over the course of the video became just about everything it claimed to be against....


It is a legitimate point of view, and also I think the most important information I got from it was Natan Sharansky's framework for assessing whether criticism of Israel comes from an anti-semitic origin (that is, if it involves delegitimisation, demonisation or double-standards)
Original post by ExcitedPup
What are you talking about? I was responding to this comment



It is basically completely made-up lies about Jewish people. You think that is not anti-semitic?
There is virtually nothing anti-Semitic about that comment; blatantly common sense I suppose
Original post by quentinhamilton
There is virtually nothing anti-Semitic about that comment; blatantly common sense I suppose


What is this about "Jews killing gays and abusing children"? How is this common sense?

If anything, Israel is the most tolerant country in the mid-east (and more tolerant than some European countries) in terms of homosexuality.

As to the abuse of children, how is this specific to Jewish people?
Original post by Huskaris
I feel either side would willingly see the other obliterated off the map.


Actually that's not really true, is it? A fundamental distinction here is that Israel actually has the power to wipe the Gaza Strip off the map, or to go in and topple Hamas. They can, but they don't, nor would they want to.

By contrast, Hamas does not have the power to wipe Israel off the map but you know they would if they could
Original post by ExcitedPup
What is this about "Jews killing gays and abusing children"? How is this common sense?

If anything, Israel is the most tolerant country in the mid-east (and more tolerant than some European countries) in terms of homosexuality.

As to the abuse of children, how is this specific to Jewish people?

The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children- children being their target. Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more
I have no sympathy for Hamas or Israel, they are both scum in my eyes. I wouldn't mind seeing both of the governments destroy each other.

Original post by quentinhamilton
The only flaw in that comment is the fact that the Israeli soldiers don't technically 'abuse' children, they kill children- children being their target. Maybe if you stop enabling yourself to be indoctrinated by ridiculous Zionist propaganda you'd use your initiatives more


I wasn't aware that Israeli soldiers killed gays.
There is huge difference between being anti-zionist and being anti-semitic.

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