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Original post by the north

and for those people who claim that hamas "human shield" is responsible for the high death toll

Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence

On 10 July the UN released a situation report which deplored the civilian casualties but added: In most cases, prior to the attacks, residents have been warned to leave, either via phone calls by the Israel military or by the firing of warning missiles.”

But the Hamas-run Palestinian Authority’s Ministry of Interior has told residents not to pay attention to the IDF warnings.It issued a directive “calling all our people not to deal or pay attention to the psychological warfare carried out by the occupation through rumours that broadcast across his media and delivering publications and communications on the phones of citizens”


[video="youtube;eQ6S0-o3uFI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=16&v=eQ6S0-o3uFI[/video]
Original post by the north

and for those people who claim that hamas "human shield" is responsible for the high death toll in gaza read the whole article


Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

(1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

(2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes
Original post by ExcitedPup
Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

(1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

(2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes


It's almost like Israel didn't fire rockets into buildings they knew were occupied or shoot on sight anyone above 1.4 metres and vaguely male shaped, before branding them a terrorist threat...

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2015/05/israeli-soldiers-admit-gaza-war-atrocities-150504191146520.html

Whilst it's disgusting that anyone would attempt to base anything on israeli propaganda, those liberals (ugh), or white people who believe they can change the world by being white, or even those genuinely interested in doing something right (though if so, you shouldn't be here), oppression against muslims and islamic culture happens elsewhere too, and they are all valid battles to fight. This is leaving out all the other atrocities committed by western countries; australia for example.

The israeli-palestinian conflict has only come about due to israel's standing as a white, western first world country, and its ties in america and the UK. Let's not forget that when we might otherwise think we're helping a good cause.
Lol, anything on this site that is remotely pro-Palestine is classed as Anti-semitism... what a joke.

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Original post by ExcitedPup
Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence



[video="youtube;eQ6S0-o3uFI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=16&v=eQ6S0-o3uFI[/video]


handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate. i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME. and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat
Original post by ExcitedPup
Those people would be right. It's pretty straightforward, Hamas told people not to pay attention to IDF warnings, which is as good as a death sentence



[video="youtube;eQ6S0-o3uFI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=16&v=eQ6S0-o3uFI[/video]


handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate read the whole article . i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME.
and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat
Original post by ExcitedPup
Furthermore, the death toll amongst the Palestinians would have been nothing like what it ended up being if Hamas had,

(1) Fired their rockets from open fields in Gaza, instead of firing the rockets from built-up civilian areas knowing it would provoke an Israeli retaliation

(2) Had allowed Palestinian civilians access to bunkers in which the Hamas leadership was hiding, instead of using it to protect themselves, their soldiers and their rockets

There is no equivalence between Israel and Hamas. Israel is a legitimate nation-state whose military operations are designed to protect their own people. Hamas is a terrorist group whose military operations are designed specifically to lead to the deaths of their own people for propaganda purposes


why you replying to me like im some hamas supporter . theyre both as bad as each other in my books. still doesnt change the fact that isreal actions is simply collective punishment of the Palestinians for demanding their land back
Original post by the north
isreal actions is simply collective punishment of the Palestinians for demanding their land back


That assertion makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, including forcibly evicting all the Jewish settlers, at great political cost to the government, in order to hand it over fully to the Palestinian Authority.

There was no blockade at that time. That only came later when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, and then started bombarding Israel with rocket artillery, mortars etc Btw, searching the goods being imported into a state that is regularlly rocketing you for illegal weapons is not collective punishment.

And dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocket factory or leadership bunker is not collective punishment
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by the north
handpicking qoutes wont help your case mate. i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation. nowhere did he claim they force people to stay in their homes. futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME. and before you reply with something along the lines of hamas terrorist activity let me say , i dont support hamas , i just think those who support hamas and isreal are in the same boat


There's a fundamental misunderstanding from those who believe in the divine right that Hamas is Palestine. This is used to justify the whole "everyone in palestine is a threat so we must bomb this house or this school." the most common I find is the "Hamas has infiltrated..." and it's bull****.

over 1500 palestinian civilians died last year as a result of the conflict. The US claims that "our hearts break for the loss of every civilian, Israeli and Palestinian." Surely they'd have suffered chest pains by now?

How can Hillary Clinton say that and then a few seconds later pledge to improve security forces in Israel?

Original post by Enginerd.
Lol, anything on this site that is remotely pro-Palestine is classed as Anti-semitism... what a joke.

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you're telling me.
Original post by the north
i understand arabic and what the man said in the video is that hamas encourages people to act as human shields

Exactly. And of course, firing rockets from civilian urban areas is itself the use of human shields, knowing that Israel will retaliate

Also, telling civilians to ignore IDF warnings to leave their homes ahead of a strike is using them as a human shield. In the latter case, they kind of are forcing them to be human shields.

because it is effective in stopping the occupation


So the occupation has stopped now? By the way, an Israeli bomb dropped on the house of a senior Hamas terrorist being used as a command centre is not "the occupation"

futhermore the fact that isreal targets people home even if they do give warning is a WAR CRIME.


Actually it's not; you are merely revealing your ignorance of international law. It is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is being used as a command centre / rocket storage / observation post / safe house, and it is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is incidental to the fact that you are targeting an enemy combatant.

What a commander needs to do is weigh the proportionality of the likelihood of civilian injury against the value of the military objective. But the mere fact it is a house does not mean it is a war crime, that is just legal ignorance.

I note with interest you failed to respond to the fact that Hamas encouraged the civiliians to ignore IDF warnings, which almost certainly would result in their death
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Guills on wheels

over 1500 palestinian civilians died last year as a result of the conflict


How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.
Original post by ExcitedPup
That's a rather characteristic rant, it has all the elements; bemoaning the evil whitey, Muslims are always victims, Israelis are evil European settlers.

It is quite funny that you should say that, though; anyone who has travelled to Israel knows that about half of the people you see there do not look European at all, they are descended from Middle Eastern Jews.

And the idea that Israel is some evil white country, when it has Ethiopian Jews... mate you are basically just a prejudiced bigot

(IDF Soldiers, Ethiopian Jews)





Err, what? Australian atrocities? What are you talking about?


I'm white. it's not relevant, but the WSC exists. I'm not saying all white people are evil ffs.

They will be considered white. How many times have you heard genuine direct discrimination against a jew for his race, compared to anyone of, say... south asian or african descent? It's not about how they look, so much as how they speak and the sort of support that is available to jewish communities at the more powerful end of western governance.

What the ****? "we have some black people so you're racist for saying we commit war crimes?" Are you genuinely serious? Israel has Ethiopian Jews?! Sure, gold ****ing star for you. It makes no difference.

https://newmatilda.com/2015/02/01/human-rights-watch-2015-5-biggest-issues-facing-australia

Torturing kids isn't atrocities? http://www.globalresearch.ca/child-detention-and-torture-in-australia-canberras-treatment-of-refugees/5436149
Original post by the north
hamas encourages people to act as human shields because it is effective in stopping the occupation


Why would that be effective in halting an Israeli airstrike?

I thought your position is that the evil murderous Israelis want to kill as many Palestinians as possible? If it's true that acting as a human shield is effective in stopping Israeli airstrikes, that merely confirms that the Israelis are considerate of civilian casualties and will cancel a strike where the civilian death is disproportionate to the military objective (i.e. meets their obligation under international law)
Original post by ExcitedPup
That assertion makes absolutely no sense in light of the fact that Israel completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip in 2005, including forcibly evicting all the Jewish settlers, at great political cost to the government, in order to hand it over fully to the Palestinian Authority.

There was no blockade at that time. That only came later when Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, and then started bombarding Israel with rocket artillery, mortars etc Btw, searching the goods being imported into a state that is regularlly rocketing you for illegal weapons is not collective punishment.

And dropping a bomb on a Hamas rocket factory or leadership bunker is not collective punishment


palestine does not just consist of gaza mate what about the settlement in the west bank, they dont look like theyre gonna be removed anytime soon. and yes bombing the **** out of gaza indiscriminately (see the link ) isnt collective punishment then i dont know what is. more than 500 children killed is not collective punishment? no concrete for repairs and food counted down to the last calorie is not collective punishment? if i lived in gaza and isreal bombed my house killing my family for no reason whatsover than ill fire rockets into isreal all day everyday. if isreal wants to stop rocket fire from gaza then how about stop killing the population thats just more recruits for hamas


and about the link isreal own soliders say the were ordered to shoot indiscriminately justify this then mate
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32581004
Original post by ExcitedPup
How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.


Literally, this is all ****e. The only question we should ask is: how many civilians would have died had israel not deliberately targeted buildings and people who had not shown any threat whatsoever to IDF forces. Did you read the al-jazeera article I first posted?

Please explain how killing twice as many civilians as you were meant to kill Hamas militants is precision. Thank you.

I mean, if we're going to talk about precision, how about 5 civilians but 66 Israeli soldiers killed? Who's the terrorist organisation now?
Original post by Guills on wheels
I'm not saying all white people are evil ffs.


So why do you keep bringing up this thing about them being white? Especially given so many Israelis are not?

They will be considered white. How many times have you heard genuine direct discrimination against a jew for his race, compared to anyone of, say... south asian or african descent?


Erm... well there was this big thing called the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were killed merely because of their Jewish identity. Does that count? No, you're right; Jews have had it really easy throughout history

What the ****? "we have some black people so you're racist for saying we commit war crimes?


Nope. I'm just pointing out how clueless you are when you are calling Israel a "white" country (as if that even matters anyway)



The report seems to claim that detaining people for immigration offences is torture. This is ludicrous on its face; there is no country in the world that does not use immigration detention in one form or another

That includes pretty much all of Europe and this country. Then again, it wouldn't be as satisfying to be criticising Europe, would it? You're just indulging in the typical leftist hatred of successful new world countries like Australia and the United States, something that is common amongst arrogant middle-class leftists in this country most of whom have never even travelled to the US or Australia

Have you?
Original post by ExcitedPup
Exactly. And of course, firing rockets from civilian urban areas is itself the use of human shields, knowing that Israel will retaliate

Also, telling civilians to ignore IDF warnings to leave their homes ahead of a strike is using them as a human shield. In the latter case, they kind of are forcing them to be human shields.



So the occupation has stopped now? By the way, an Israeli bomb dropped on the house of a senior Hamas terrorist being used as a command centre is not "the occupation"



Actually it's not; you are merely revealing your ignorance of international law. It is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is being used as a command centre / rocket storage / observation post / safe house, and it is absolutely justifiable to target a house if it is incidental to the fact that you are targeting an enemy combatant.

What a commander needs to do is weigh the proportionality of the likelihood of civilian injury against the value of the military objective. But the mere fact it is a house does not mean it is a war crime, that is just legal ignorance.

I note with interest you failed to respond to the fact that Hamas encouraged the civiliians to ignore IDF warnings, which almost certainly would result in their death

encouraged =/= forced
there is no evidence of force just encouragement, futhermore the same artcile it suggests that people actually do it on their own to stop their homes being bombed but hey isreal dont give a **** if its a home,mosque, school or hospital

dont act like bombing of civlian homes is not a war crime and no bombing houses is not a war crime just when there kids in there and guess what isreal bombs both kinds the one with and without children. your argument is almost claiming that isreal targeted only homes of combatants of hamas when infact in the latest 2014 events 30% of gaza population was displaced 7000 "homes"(the ones that a war crime to target) for 10,000 families destroyed

and again why you acting like i support hamas, i agree with you hamas are evil but you need to understand isreal is just as bad
Original post by ExcitedPup
How many Palestinian civilians would have died if Hamas did not start bombarding Israel with rockets in late June? How many civilians would have died if Hamas had accepted the ceasefire offered by Israel in July, rather than waiting until August to cease the conflict for no additional gain and much additional loss of life?

By the way, in addition to those 1500 civilians, about 700 Hamas and IJ militants were killed in Operation Protective Edge. Given there were several thousand sorties and bombs dropped, that suggests quite a high degree of precision in targeting.


just to follow up, as a percentage of militants killed; for israel, it's 2.05 civilians for every Hamas militant killed, and for Hamas, it's 0.08 civilians for every soldier killed. For every Israeli civilian killed, 296 palestinians died in that conflict.
Original post by Guills on wheels
how many civilians would have died had israel not deliberately targeted buildings


So Israel targeted buildings...? I'm not sure if I am supposed to be outraged. Surely what is important is what is inside those buildings?

Please explain how killing twice as many civilians as you were meant to kill Hamas militants is precision.


In historical military terms, it is quite precise. The fact about 1500 civilians were killed from around 5,000 bombs dropped, we are talking about 250lb bombs, suggests a high level of precision. I'm not sure why I'm giving you quantitative facts, you lack the understanding and knowledge of military technology and international law to judge such things. Perhaps it's better to leave to you the screechy, hysterical, slogany type stuff.

I mean, if we're going to talk about precision, how about 5 civilians but 66 Israeli soldiers killed? Who's the terrorist organisation now?


Only 5 Israeli civilians were killed because Israel built bunkers for its citizens to take shelter in, and they built a missile system called Iron Dome to protect their civilians.

Hamas built bunkers to store its rockets in, and placed its rockets in civilian houses and areas.

So basically, Israel uses missiles to protect its citizens sheltering in bunkers, Hamas uses civilians to protect its missiles and soldiers/leadership sheltering in bunkers.

That tells you everything about their relative value of life. Israel values human life (as was admitted on the thread earlier, Hamas knows human shields are effective in stopping air strikes). Hamas does not value human life, and they revel in dead Palestinian children.

As to the Israeli soldiers killed, Israel sent its soldiers into Gaza to root out some of the command centres and rocket storage bunkers. That is why some of their soldiers were killed. That was entirely incidental to Hamas' overall campaign of war crimes, firing thousands of rockets indiscriminately at Israeli civilians
Original post by ExcitedPup
Why would that be effective in halting an Israeli airstrike?

I thought your position is that the evil murderous Israelis want to kill as many Palestinians as possible? If it's true that acting as a human shield is effective in stopping Israeli airstrikes, that merely confirms that the Israelis are considerate of civilian casualties and will cancel a strike where the civilian death is disproportionate to the military objective (i.e. meets their obligation under international law)

i never said that ,the man in the video did so try asking him the question