The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV

The connection is tenuous, to say the least, if they're not actually white.

This is the exact reason why people like you shouldn't ****ing be allowed to breath. I'm sorry, I don't like resorting to personal attacks but it's just thick.

America had a direct say in whether that ****ing agreement passed through the UN in the first place. Please tell me why they don't experience privilege. You've provided no argument so far.

Oh dear, baby's throwing his toys out of the pram. Somebody call the whaaaaambulance

So you're not going to answer the question about whether you accept that Hamas fires rockets from civilian areas?

You say you don't support Hamas but you concede you don't attach any blame to their actions



I'm sorry mate but I think you are confused. This thread was originally about anti-semitism amongst claimed Palestine advocates on campus.

And then we discussed the conflict in 2014, which includes the actions of both sides. Your claim that this is only a discussion about Israel's actions is just that; your claim.

And you're never really going to be taken seriously if you try such transparently pusillanimous debating "tactics"; avoiding discussion of the parts of the subject that make you uncomfortable or which are bad for your "side" is pretty unbecoming

That wasn't my argument. I don't support either states as both are destructive and support killing civilians. The only solution I would morally advocate is a popular uprising against both states.

I don't agree. Isreal's government has proved to be extremely heavy handed.

They are in a hell of a fix. Many in Netanyahu's government were calling on him to go in and topple Hamas once and for all, and the IDF advised him that they were capable of doing so if ordered ("Go in and pull them out by their ears" was the phrase).

What they were worried about was what would come after if they toppled Hamas. In recent months, there have been backchannel communications between Hamas and Israel about the worrying growth of ISIS in Gaza.

If only the Palestinians had stood behind Fatah in Gaza, at this point Gaza would probably be thriving and I actually think we probably would have had a final settlement by now if we hadn't had the three Gaza conflicts that came from Hamas provoking Israel

Regarding that, don't you think it is a relevant consideration that the only reason Israel is now being bombarded by Hamas rockets is because they did the right thing in 2005 and completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip, pulled all the soldiers out, forcibly evicted the Israeli settlers at great political cost, to hand it over entirely to the Palestinians as a first step / peace gesture with a view to moving on to a West Bank disengagement next.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

And then their reward for pulling out of Gaza is to see it fall to Hamas, who immediately start bombarding Israel with rockets. Do you not think that is a relevant consideration here? Do you not have any sympathy for the extraordinary difficulty Israeli policy-makers are in when they are under rocket bombardment; they can either do nothing, in which case it just gets worse, or they can retaliate and unfortunately civilians will be killed. What do you propose they do?

Actually that's not really true, is it? A fundamental distinction here is that Israel actually has the power to wipe the Gaza Strip off the map, or to go in and topple Hamas. They can, but they don't, nor would they want to.

By contrast, Hamas does not have the power to wipe Israel off the map but you know they would if they could

Stop feigning neutrality. I have picked you up before about this. It is clear from your previous comment that you are anything but objective on this issue:

To be fair on Israel, it has faced multiple threats to its survival and as is oft-repeated, because it's true, if it dropped its weapons it would be annihilated. Ever since the 2nd intifada, even relatively non-hawkish, leftish Israelis have admitted that the Palestinians don't really want a two-state solution. Now assuming your allegations about Israel intentionally killing civilians are true, nothing would justify that. It would be a war crime. But going back to the topic before, Britain did the same in WW2 (in fact, immeasurably worse, bombing entire cities to the ground).

My allegations that Israel knowingly causes civilian deaths is backed up by most even moderately reliable news sources. Thus their actions are, as you say, unjustifiable. Please note I don't refer necesserily to the Israeli people, who generally are either misinformed or don't support the nature of the conflict (except in a few cases where a few people are proper bastards).

Britain's actions in WW2 were definitely terrible, Dresden was a war crime, which is one of the reasons I hate Atlee in spite of him being my 'favourite' Prime Minister. I think Israel would do sonething similair if they could justify it to the international community. Like I said they're a terribly cruel and heavy handed government in their actions.

Knowingly causing civilian deaths is different from intentionally causing them. If Israel wanted to kill civilians I'm sure it would go about it much more efficiently. Idi Amin and Pol Pot are the kinds of people who intentionally kill civilians. They are very different from the Israelis.

Clement Attlee wasn't the prime minister in 1944 was he, when Dresden was firebombed? [edit: just checked and it was 1945, my mistake.] Nevertheless I'm sure he supported "area bombing", as it was received wisdom with respect to defeating the Wehrmacht. Such is the nature of defeating barbarism without the use of precision-guided munitions.

I'm just saying you should judge Israel in context, because it is fighting people with an ideology not very (or at all) different from that of ISIS, or indeed the Nazis.

To not care that you're causing civilian deaths and to carry on doing what you're doing in spite of those deaths is no morally better or worse than intentionally killing civilians (which Israel has also done on occasion).

Clement Attle's Labour was in coalition with Churchill and the Conservative party during World War 2 (the only time in the 20th century that Britain had a coalition). Attlee ordered the bombing of Dresden with an early version of napalm causing severe destruction and casualties. Churchill was a bastard but he didn't order that, he did come out in support of it after though. The bombing of Dresden was unnecessary, the city wasn't tactically useful for the Wehrmacht or the much more dangerous WaffenSS. It also didn't have any economic contribution to this late stage of Germany's war production; it was a pure and unadulterated revenge killing, taking bitterness out on innocent civilians.

I understand the context fully. Hamas wants the destruction of the Israeli state, justifying that the land is of religious significance to them and was formerly their territory. Israel responds to the actions of Hamas with campaigns which result in civilian suffering on a level that a so-called 'sophisticated society' can't justify.

I agree. Israel can hardly be blamed for the fact that the Arabs repeatedly resorted to violence, and then found to their dismay that the Israelis are bloody tough soldiers

Regarding that, don't you think it is a relevant consideration that the only reason Israel is now being bombarded by Hamas rockets is because they did the right thing in 2005 and completely pulled out of the Gaza Strip, pulled all the soldiers out, forcibly evicted the Israeli settlers at great political cost, to hand it over entirely to the Palestinians as a first step / peace gesture with a view to moving on to a West Bank disengagement next.

And then their reward for pulling out of Gaza is to see it fall to Hamas, who immediately start bombarding Israel with rockets. Do you not think that is a relevant consideration here? Do you not have any sympathy for the extraordinary difficulty Israeli policy-makers are in when they are under rocket bombardment; they can either do nothing, in which case it just gets worse, or they can retaliate and unfortunately civilians will be killed. What do you propose they do?

Well they don't just want the destruction of Israel, they also want to establish a theocracy in its place. Basically Israel's (and by extension the IDF's) core principle is the protection of Israeli citizens, which includes IDF soldiers since they have conscription. Hamas do their best to make Israel's protection of its own citizens result in Palestinian deaths (e.g. by forcing people not to take shelter) which it then uses in its propaganda war. Israeli war crimes, to the extent that they exist, account for a small fraction of total civilian casualties in its wars with both Hamas and Hezbollah. Israel's argument in defence of this policy is that it is only trying to protect its own citizens, and civilian casualties which occur are, in the main, the moral responsibility of Hamas, the principle (but weak) aggressors. Whether or not you agree with this argument, you have to concede that it is ludicrous to claim that Israel is trying to cause civilian casualties. A much better argument (though one which I would still disagree with) is that Israel is fighting a losing battle or that it should not try so hard to protect its own citizens.

Back to WWII - well I didn't know that it was Attlee who ordered the bombing of Dresden. I have also stated previously that the bombing was a war crime, so we're agreed on that one.

I'm sure Israel does care about civilian casualties. If it doesn't, why does it spend so much money trying to avoid them? Surely if it doesn't care, it would just drop bombs all over the place and quite quickly the war would be over?

Israel is run by a white supremacist zionist government who do not care about anyone but world domination and money. Ask yourself why they treat Black Jews like Sh*t, going as far as giving Ethiopian jews contraception shots without their permission in order to decrease their birth rate in Israel and keep a pure white Jewish state. "Benjamin Netanyahu, who also holds the health portfolio, warned that illegal immigrants from Africa “threaten our existence as a Jewish and democratic state”. - Funny that considering they are also immigrants in the so-called state of Israel as the country is made up of Europeans ho immigrated there. I find it funny how countries like Israel, Australia and America treats immigrants like **** when they are the true immigrants who took over the land by killing and harming the indigenous people.

The killing of Palestinians is also 'Anti-Semitism'.

yo palestinians are mainly muslims though yeah?

anti-semitism = anti-judaism.