So-called anti-zionism

Three times in the last year, I've met people who say something along the lines of "I'm not against Israel's right to exist, I'm only opposed to Zionism". When I point out that this is contradictory, that Zionism is the idea of the Jewish state in the Levant, they say "Oh, I thought Zionist meant right-wing settlers; that's what I was told by X"

It turns out many people who think they are anti-Zionist are in fact pro-Zionist and don't realise it. They are in favour of Israel's existence,, but against certain actions of the Israeli government, like further settlements outside the pre-1967 borders (an eminently sensible position; probably about 40% of the Israeli population has similar views)

It seems that people who claim to be pro-Palestine advocates have deliberately tried to push the idea that Zionism means "right-wing settler" or Likud or something, rather than Zionism simply being support for the idea that the Jewish people should be allowed to have a state of their own (I believe the Kurds should also have a state of their own; it's not by accident that the Kurds and the Jews have close relations; they have both suffered from Arab Muslim chauvinism).

This is not unusual for these "advocates"; they use many emotive words, like "genocide", "war crime", "apartheid", etc hoping to short-circuit people's critical thinking faculties. Unfortunately for the Palestinians, these people in the West tend to stand lock-stock behind Hamas, and thus favour further provocation and engagement between Hamas and the IDF; conflicts out of which the Palestinian people always come out second best. I suppose it's easy to egg people on from the safety of your bedroom in suburban London knowing you will never have to suffer the consequence.

In other words, these self-proclaimed Palestine advocates are willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood

(edited 8 years ago)

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Reply 1

anarchism101

Original post by TheBlackWatch

Not necessarily. While they were always marginal, there were some Zionist groups during the mandatory period who supported a binational state.

Also, states don't have a "right to exist". They have a right to remain free from aggression, but that is not the same thing.

It turns out many people who think they are anti-Zionist are in fact pro-Zionist and don't realise it. They are in favour of Israel's existence,, but against certain actions of the Israeli government, like further settlements outside the pre-1967 borders (an eminently sensible position; probably about 40% of the Israeli population has similar views)

What you're describing here would also be described by some as post-Zionism (rather than pro-Zionism as such); the idea that Zionism was the movement with the aim of creating a Jewish state; however, as that aim has been realised, Zionism as an ideology is now redundant, and provides no theoretical basis for any necessary rights that Israel doesn't already have by virtue of being a recognised state under international law.

It seems that people who claim to be pro-Palestine advocates have deliberately tried to push the idea that Zionism means "right-wing settler" or Likud or something

This would be the flipside of the post-Zionist view; that the Israeli right (and a few in the centre and moderate left) view Zionism as an ongoing, unfinished process, rather than a completed movement.

This is not unusual for these "advocates"; they use many emotive words, like "genocide", "war crime", "apartheid", etc hoping to short-circuit people's critical thinking faculties.

Whereas reference by the Israeli side to any Palestinian armed opposition simply as "terrorism" (to give just one example) isn't simplistic or emotive at all?

Also, these terms are all legal terms with defined meanings under international law. If you want my opinion, genocide is an exaggeration that probably isn't accurate, but the latter two I would say are indeed accurate (unless you're claiming that Israel has never committed a war crime).

Unfortunately for the Palestinians, these people in the West tend to stand lock-stock behind Hamas, and thus favour further provocation and engagement between Hamas and the IDF; conflicts out of which the Palestinian people always come out second best. I suppose it's easy to egg people on from the safety of your bedroom in suburban London knowing you will never have to suffer the consequence.

In other words, these self-proclaimed Palestine advocates are willing to fight to the last drop of someone else's blood

You think Hamas do what they do because of Western pro-Palestine activists?

Also, this argument would also constitute an argument against anyone having a position on any foreign conflict.

Reply 2

Historyfrenchfan

I'm firmly against Israel because I'm in favour of the Palestine cause

Reply 3

MatureStudent36

I don't know why the word Zionist/Zionism is still in use.

Israel has existed since 1948. I'm not seeing it stopping to exist in the near future.

Reply 4

MatureStudent36

Original post by Historyfrenchfan

I'm firmly against Israel because I'm in favour of the Palestine cause

Upset the Soviet Union collapsed? Hate anything that the U.S. Supports?

Reply 5

username878267

Actually Zionism does not mean Israel's right to exist. It means Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.
I don't think any state should have a religion or any religion should have a state.

Reply 6

TheBlackWatch

Original post by Bornblue

Actually Zionism does not mean Israel's right to exist. It means Israel's right to exist as a Jewish State.
I don't think any state should have a religion or any religion should have a state.

I think you are a little bit confused. If you are a Zionist, you are in favour if Israel's continued existence. If you are in favour of Israel's continued existence in its present form, you are Zionist.

And Israel is not a religious state because being a Jew is not a religious thing; didn't you know there are atheist Jews?

Reply 7

username878267

Original post by TheBlackWatch

I'm Jewish myself.
I believe in israels right to exist but I don't believe in its right to exist as a Jewish state. I don't believe in the right for any state to have a religion.

Reply 8

Chris_JF

Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut], translit. Tziyonut, after Zion) is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (also referred to as Palestine, Canaan or the Holy Land).

Got this definition from Wikipedia but it's still correct. This land encompasses Palestine, Lebanon, and parts of Syria if I'm not mistaken. This is why people are against Zionism.

Reply 9

MatureStudent36

Original post by Bornblue

I'm Jewish myself.
I believe in israels right to exist but I don't believe in its right to exist as a Jewish state. I don't believe in the right for any state to have a religion.

That's good. Israel has no official religion and a quarter of its population are non Jewish.

Reply 10

username878267

Original post by MatureStudent36

That's good. Israel has no official religion and a quarter of its population are non Jewish.

Erm yes it does and it has a right of return for one religious group and its national flag is a Jewish emblem.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 11

Shqiptare

Original post by Bornblue

Erm yes it does and it has a right of return for one religious group and its national flag is a Jewish emblem.

Zionism views Jews as a national group, not just a religious group. In fact, Zionism was, at least in its early days, was characterized as being anti-religious, which is why the Charedi hate them.

Reply 12

SotonianOne

Original post by Bornblue

national flag is a Jewish emblem.

Oh wow you must be against Greece's right to exist yeah? That illegal Hellenic Orthodoxy cross in their flag...

Oh wow you must be against Georgia's right to exist yeah? That illegal Jerusalem cross in their flag...

Oh wow you must be against Liechtenstein's right to exist yeah? That illegal Christian cross in their flag...

Oh wow you must be against Spain's right to exist yeah? That illegal Christian cross in their flag...

Yeah. Disgusting flags. (not to forget the 3 Christian crosses in the UK flag, and 40 Islamic countries)

Then again, you are against a country being inhabited purely and only by one religion, right?

I bet you hate Vatican City and Saudi Arabia. Disgusting non-countries.

Right of return for aliyah? Yeah I bet you hate China because they repatriate their own if they have the ancestry. Same for Poland.

Bet you hate singing "God Save the Queen" as well. And you detest our Christian-cross-containing Coat of Arms.

Reply 13

TheBlackWatch

Original post by Chris_JF

Got this definition from Wikipedia but it's still correct. This land encompasses Palestine, Lebanon, and parts of Syria if I'm not mistaken. This is why people are against Zionism.

Where do Jews come from originally?

Reply 14

username878267

Original post by SotonianOne

Haha yet again you argue against a point I never made.
My point was Israel was a Jewish state, not that it shouldn't exist. But of course you don't bother to read the actual point.
I said I don't agree with Israels right to exist as a Jewish state. Not as a country. I don't think any country should have a religion. Although the difference is that in the UK, non - Christians aren't discriminated against, blockaded into an area, denied the vote , have their schools and hospitals blown up, have roads that non-Jews aren't allowed to go on.
But the difference is , Israel violently discriminate against those of a different religion ; the adormentioned cpuntries do not and certainly not to the same extent.

And I'm actually Jewish , so I don't need someone who knows nothing about the situation telling me about Israel thank you very much.

Reply 15

MatureStudent36

Original post by Bornblue

The state of Israel has no official religion. And to be h Best it doesn't even matter if it does. Many country's adopt a state religion.

The Palestinians who are happy to fire rockets in order to create civilian casualties whilst using their own people as human shields adopt Islam.

Reply 16

username878267

Original post by MatureStudent36

It has an official religion of Judaism. Of course it does ffs.
And Israel has used Palestinian children as human shields. And Israel are happy to drop bombs on schools and hospitals, slaughtering thousands of innocent civilians. And don't tar the Palestinians with the actions of a few nutters.

Reply 17

MatureStudent36

Original post by Bornblue

Maybe if the majority of Palestinians stopped letting themselves be used as human shields the they wouldn't be casuakties so often.

I hate to say it, but when you actually look at the tit for tat attacks that happen on te Israeli Palestinian border it's always the Palestinians that fire first

Reply 18

SotonianOne

Original post by Bornblue

the adormentioned cpuntries do not and certainly not to the same extent.

No? In the Vatican City if you are not Catholic or Italian you are arrested for breaching peace. If you are not Sunni Muslim and you try to enter Saudi Arabia you are prevented from going on main streets, you are limited to hotels and you are banned from voting (local emirate elections). If you enter Mecca, you get shot.

Not much different from Israel is it?

Oh wait, it is, because Israel DOES allow non-Jews to vote, DOES allow non-Jews to walk everywhere and DOES allow people freedom of religion.

Also Israel does not "have their schools and hospitals blown up" so I don't know what you mean.

Original post by Bornblue

And I'm actually Jewish , so I don't need someone who knows nothing about the situation telling me about Israel thank you very much.

And I lived in Israel, so I don't need someone who's Jewish and lives in Stamford Hill all their miserable life to try and attempt to wave their flag of ignorance in my face. You know nothing.