Why do feminists say 'teach men not to rape'?

Men are disposable you see and it is their own fault when stuff like this happens for being weak.

Except I in no way said that, you read that from your emotions. Not from my words.

And nowhere did I say their actions are justified.

If you don't want to understand what causes rape then fine, but don't come crying about rape not being prevented then. You can't prevent something you don't understand.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion and actual listen rather read things that aren't there then fine. But if you want to start getting emotional and turning this into a fallacy then don't reply back to me.

In the same article that you linked, you can see that the male victims stay quiet because they fear the reactions of other men. It is not feminism that causes men to fear other men.

I'd just like to add that I think you're spot on.

As regards the thread, I am a feminist, but certainly not a fan of the phrase "Teach men not to rape". I agree with the concept of not victim-blaming, and teaching people of both sexes about issues of consent and rights and personal safety, but it's such an antagonistic and divisive phrase. We need men to be on side with understanding and educating about consent and it's really quite an offensive message.

1 out of 181 rape accusations are false. 20% of all women will be raped in their lifetime. Stop derailing the discussion about rape to things that are completely irrelevant.

Actually, if you did read our conversation, which by your answer, you certainly didn't, you would've seen that I didn't change my opinion, I simply added that "by the way, this isn't even relevant, so why are you even bringing it up in the first place", because it had nothing to do with anything.
She was in the wrong, because she said that most rapists are normal people who simply made a few mistakes, which is completely untrue, most rapists are people with mental health issues, such as having been molested or raped themselves, hating women and feeling a strong desire to control them, certain paraphilias, and also, in some cases (which is the reason why rape is more prevalent in poorer areas), it's socioeconomically related. People do not wake up one day and rape, they went wrong somewhere.

Believe it or not, most rapists aren't evil psychopaths that everyone paints them to be purely because it's an easier concept to deal with. It's not that black and white. Most of them are just normal people who did a horrible thing, many feel remorse and guilt.

Somewhere is their lives they went the wrong way, their morals became skewed ect. There are many factors that can lead someone to rape.

It's important for us as a society to not only understand how this happens, but also to help prevent this.

Edit: for the easily emotionally charged and those who overreact. No, I'm not saying that rapists aren't accountable for their own actions. Stop jumping to conclusions.

True. Rapists aren't bad, they just made a mistake, and shaming them like that is wrong! Instead, teach women to not walk alone at night, to not wear too revealing clothes, cause it may make those poor men make mistakes and rape them, and if they do, it's on them!

"What, that not all rapists are psychopaths?"
Except, I never mentioned that they weren't psychopaths. Most rapists are not mentally ill. I've said this already.

She was in the wrong, because she said that most rapists are normal people who simply made a few mistakes, which is completely untrue, most rapists are people with mental health issues

That does not mean that they are normal people who simply wake up one day, make a mistake, become a serial rapist for a day, regret it terribly and then return to their natural and normal state of mind. That doesn't happen and to believe so trivializes the issue to a certain degree.

Ugh. Honestly? Sources?

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/20/living/feat-rape-freshmen-women-new-study/
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-16192494
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/10/sex-crimes-analysis-england-wales (And before you dismiss the guardian, they do provide sources).
In 2011, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that "nearly 20% of all women" in the United States suffered attempted sexual assault, sexual assault (forced kissing and fondling), attempted rape, and rape sometime in their life. More than a third of the victims were raped before the age of 18.[7]"

True. Rapists aren't bad, they just made a mistake, and shaming them like that is wrong! Instead, teach women to not walk alone at night, to not wear too revealing clothes, cause it may make those poor men make mistakes and rape them, and if they do, it's on them!

No, that is not rape. Rape is not any unsolicited sexual contact, that's sexual harrassment, but rape is defined as penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina with or without force without consent of the victim. That is what rape is.
"Your statistics is hardly more impressive"? Why are you trying to trivialize rape statistics and make them appear as "less impressive" than they are? 20% of all women will be raped during their lifetime, why are you justifying that by criticizing feminists?

No they don't actually.

Rape is defined as penetration with a penis.

So what a woman wears and where a woman goes is obviously saying that she wants to have sex with a man, whether or not she consents? Does what a woman wears and where she goes means that she is asking to be scarred for life? Are you saying that men don't have enough sense to realise that clothing and location doesn't mean a woman is wanting sex?

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She didn't say that people wake up one day and commit rape. And I did, in fact, read your conversation with her. Here's what she said in her original post. I've highlighted some parts.



Here is your response to that:



Which is presumptuous, to say the least. By 'normal people', she probably meant that they're not evil psychopaths who follow people in the street all day picking their next target, not that 'rapists/rape are normal', which, I think, is what you thought she meant. She wasn't in the wrong at all. Your reply to SophieSmall accused her of a bunch of things that she hadn't said, which is what I refer to as your attempt to derail the argument.

I'm really struggling to piece together what you actually think about this, since you've said quite contrary things in the same post:




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As I've already said, she didn't mean that rapists/rape is normal, just that most people who do it are ordinary people with jobs, families, commitments etc. as opposed to escaped prisoners who're kept in solitary confinement in chains because they're a danger to everyone, including themselves. It doesn't trivialise anything. It's a shame, really, that I can't take that word seriously anymore because it is used so often to shut down debate.



Yes. Honestly. Sources. It's not too much too ask if you're going to make such large claims.



Okay, so the first of your sources has to do with only one university in upstate New York, which is hardly representative enough to support the statement that '20 percent of all women will be raped in their lifetime.'

The second is more credible and mentions that 18 percent of women questioned had been victims of rape or attempted rape, not just rape. I would blame the people who did the survey in this instance for not using separate boxes for rape and attempted rape but surely you see the flaw: this is a statistic of how many people (let's assume all the rape attempts were successful) were raped as of 2012 in the United States. It doesn't mean that this rate will hold as is implied by the statement that '20 percent of all women will be raped in their lifetimes.'

The third, at a glance, is a BBC report of the second.

The fourth shows some worrying figures but, again, do nothing to prove that 20 percent of women will be raped in their lifetimes.

Sorry for the length of this post, I tried to be thorough and not misread the articles.

So what a woman wears and where a woman goes is obviously saying that she wants to have sex with a man, whether or not she consents? Does what a woman wears and where she goes means that she is asking to be scarred for life? Are you saying that men don't have enough sense to realise that clothing and location doesn't mean a woman is wanting sex?

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Dodgy statistics with no source and using the word toxic in the wrong context? The hell are you doing outside of tumblr?

She said that rapists were normal people when it is not true because most rapists have mental health problems.

"By normal people, she probably meant that they're not evil psychopaths who follow people in the street all day picking their next target, not that rapists are normal." That was literally what she said, which isn't true, because most of them do have mental health issues. By her logic, you have to understand an issue to solve it, and when you categorize rapists as "normal people who make a few bad mistakes" you are a) not helping the issue in the slightest because b) you're wrong which c) even, to a certain extent trivializes the issue, when you're making out rapists to be normal people, and not be as bad as you think they are. Does that make sense to you?

Having a mental illness and having mental health problems are not the same thing. In order to be diagnosed with a mental illness, you need to fit a certain DSM-IV quota - not all people with mental health problems do that. Being psychopathic and having paraphilias are not the same thing. Hating women and feeling a need to control them and being sociopathic is not the same thing. Having been raped or molested and being schizophenic is not the same thing and it's very important to distinguish between having mental health issues and having a full blown illness.

But, again, saying that most people who rape are ordinary people with jobs, families, and commitments and not full-blown psychos isn't true.

Most people who rape are ****ed up in the head, and it does not matter whether they have mental illnesses or are psychopaths or not; they have some sort of mental health issue.According to studies, most murderers are not mentally ill. This does not make them "normal people who make a few mistakes, but due to not being psychos, are capable of feeling remorse".
(And yes, it's not that hard to use Google.)

1) Nope, it doesn't, but I used it to show you that the pattern is quite similar, in the way, that quite a lot of sources from all kinds of different parts of the world has the same percentage of women getting raped. It's not 35% in New York, 15% in Chicago, 29% in New Jersey, 12% in the UK, etc, but it tends to be quite a static number. However, that's fair enough, I can see where you're coming from.

2) Haha, what in the ****? There is absolutely no mention of attempted rape in this source, it says that "18% of women reported experiencing rape in their lifetime". The only mention of rape is regarding the college age and the multiple race rape stats, it's not mentioned in the text at all. And yes, it does, because it's a static number, this is not the only source saying 20%, which leads it to being way more credible.

3) It literally shows that 20% of all women in the United States has suffered attempted sexual assault, sexual assault, rape or attempted rape in their lifetime. It shows that 20% of women have been raped, so yes, it does.

Consent: 'permission for something to happen or agreement to do something'

Teaching men not to rape is not about sitting down all men and giving them lessons on how to 'control their urges' or whatever. We know that not all men are rapists. Instead it's about making sure that everyone knows that there needs to be consent before sex, that consent can't be given when drunk or drugged, that consent can be revoked during the act (it HAS to be said, they have to say no, stop, they can't decide afterwards that they didn't want it). It's also about stopping victim blaming - stopping girls being blamed for getting raped because of what they were wearing or because they were drunk. Yes, it may have been their decision to wear whatever they were wearing, but just because someone isn't wearing a hard hat, doesn't mean I can be excused for throwing a brick at their head. To say that a large majority of rape accusations are just girls who had sex with a 'munter' and then regretted it so said they were raped is trivializing and offensive - some girls are young when they are raped, some girls are not.

Teaching men not to rape is not about 'stopping men from inevitably raping someone', it's about making sure everyone knows what is acceptable, what is consented and what is not, and stopping victim blaming.

ALSO let me just say that yes men CAN get raped and YES feminists (or intersectional feminists) address this, recognise this, and they see this as a problem. Stop using male rape victims as a way to attack feminists.