Why do feminists say 'teach men not to rape'?

pretty sexist to me

so if I jam my fist in there instead it isn't rape?

Both males and females are capable of sexual assault and it can have an equal negative impact on the victim regardless of their or the attackers' gender.

1 out of 181 rape accusations are false. 20% of all women will be raped in their lifetime. Stop derailing the discussion about rape to things that are completely irrelevant.

As I've pointed out a few replies back, 'trivialises' is a word that carries little to no meaning in any debate. Has she fundamentally set the debate on how to prevent and punish rape back by any significant amount of time by using words whose interpretation by you speculates that they're normalising rape? No, she hasn't. So let's get that out of the way, please.

I see nothing wrong with calling them 'normal people who make a few bad mistakes.' As I've said before, she did not mean that, as her edit to the first post and subsequent replies clarified. The fact that you continue to pull her up on your original interpretation says more about you than about her. Nobody is saying that rape is normal - she's saying that most rapists are normal people in the sense that the phrase 'normal people' sounds to everybody but people like you who're determined to be offended by just about everything. They're just words on an Internet website. They don't mean what you think they mean and, contrary to what you might assert, they haven't just swung the needle from 'rape is wrong' to 'rape is not wrong' in anybody's mind. Does that make sense to you?



This has to be the most long-winded attempt to avoid admitting you've contradicted yourself I've seen to date. I have not stated or implied that any of the underlined are the case. You've brought clinical diagnoses into it but you have to understand that diagnoses are themselves a grey area and holes through which people can slip. For you to take advantage of that to make the ludicrous point that somebody with mental health problems doesn't have a mental illness is rather irritating.



I think you're confusing the popular term 'psycho' with actual psychopathy, which, according to Google, is a general term for mental illness or disorder. Do you have any evidence to suggest that most rapists don't have jobs, families and commitments? Because it's difficult to survive long enough (parents are included in 'families' to sit at home plotting your next attack like somebody who was '****ed up in the head' might. I'm not saying none of them doesn't have a job or family or commitments but that most do. Ironically, your own example of the New York university should have told you this already: most of the perpetrators in those cases would have been students or (in fewer cases) university staff, both of whom are ordinary people with ordinary lives.

After that wall of text I've subjected you to, if you want to keep insisting that mere acknowledgement that most rapists are normal people with normal lives prior to becoming rapists, go ahead and do so. I'm not going to reply to it again as most of the arguments have been exhausted.



Actually, it does. If they're not mentally ill, then, until they've committed the murder(s), they are 'normal people who make a few [one, if it's a single murder] mistakes.' You're being emotional about it instead of actually reading the text. It's not saying anything that's unreasonable.



I find it difficult to believe that it could be a static number in different places given that 'rape capital' is an actual term used to describe places with very high incidences of rape. However, I don't know that so I'm willing to be convinced either way. By the way, the first source is about a single university in New York, not the entire state of New York so it's not really representative of New York either.



Hmm, I'll admit I confused that with one of the others. It doesn't show that '20 percent of women will be raped in their lifetime.' I really wish you'd get this bit right - I just devoted quite a bit of time to this. Happened does not equal will happen. That's making a huge assumption and one that you're duty-bound to state before making a claim of that sort. I'd have no problem with it if you said 'assuming that this trend continues, 20 percent of women will be raped in their lifetime' if there was a trend in the first place. But no, you keep repeating that claim over and over citing sources, after complaining about being asked for them, that don't prove, and can't prove it.

As for whether there's a trend, that would depend on you providing sources that the number is static across state and national lines. I'm not saying it's not static, before you get angry about that. I'm just asking for evidence.

I can't believe you've made such a stupid error. Three of the things you've listed in your magic 20 percent figure are not-rape; you then go onto say 'it shows that 20 percent of women have been raped.' No, it doesn't. It shows that 20 percent of women have suffered attempted sexual assault, attempted rape, sexual assault or rape. It may be that the whole 20 percent are concentrated into the rape category but there's no evidence of that. Furthermore, there's no evidence that this is indicative of what will happen in future so, no, it doesn't show that '20 percent of women will be raped in their lifetimes', which is my critique of it.

I hope that made sense. I'm not going to continue writing essay-sized posts if the most basic points continue to elude you and you struggle to keep the argument civil.

There is no single reliable figure on false rape accusation frequency. Commonly cited figures are 2%, 8% (FBI), and they may range as high as 40%, depending on the study or source.

Most rape accusations see neither a conviction (proven guilt) nor are they determined to be false - the truth behind the majority is simply unknown. Regardless, we don't determine guilt from statistics, as each accusation is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. False accusations do happen, and it is the duty of both the authorities and the public to prevent them, as it is also our duty to prevent rape.

False accusations are very relevant indeed, as they are easy to make, hard to identify, and don't often see legal consequences. They are also likely to increase if new laws and policies favour 'guilty until proven innocent', which is something many university tribunals already do in North America.

Fair enough, but then at the same time, classifying all rape allegations as "false rape accusations", and saying something as ludicrous as "rapists are made rapists when women accuse them of rape", which is what he did is ridiculous. According to studies, 68% of all rape cases are never reported to the police, and the amount of rapes that actually occur are unknown. False accusations do happen amongst all crimes, and most times, they are not proven to be false either; a lot of the times, they're simply dropped due to lack of evidence.
"False accusations are very relevant indeed, as they are easy to make, hard to identify, and often don't see legal consequences"
Just like rape, then, with other words, considering 97% of all rapists go unpunished.

No, that is not rape. Rape is not any unsolicited sexual contact, that's sexual harrassment, but rape is defined as penetration of the mouth, anus or vagina with or without force without consent of the victim. That is what rape is.
"Your statistics is hardly more impressive"? Why are you trying to trivialize rape statistics and make them appear as "less impressive" than they are? 20% of all women will be raped during their lifetime, why are you justifying that by criticizing feminists?

"Rapists are made rapists when women accuse them of rape" - ironically, this is how that 97% figure was determined. Again, we cannot rely on this figure as most of those 'rapists' were never actually found guilty of being rapists. I don't doubt the majority get away with it (they must, as it is a general rule with most crimes), but we need to keep this in mind before throwing out figures.

Actually, if you did read our conversation, which by your answer, you certainly didn't, you would've seen that I didn't change my opinion, I simply added that "by the way, this isn't even relevant, so why are you even bringing it up in the first place", because it had nothing to do with anything.
She was in the wrong, because she said that most rapists are normal people who simply made a few mistakes, which is completely untrue, most rapists are people with mental health issues, such as having been molested or raped themselves, hating women and feeling a strong desire to control them, certain paraphilias, and also, in some cases (which is the reason why rape is more prevalent in poorer areas), it's socioeconomically related. People do not wake up one day and rape, they went wrong somewhere.

"What, that not all rapists are psychopaths?"
Except, I never mentioned that they weren't psychopaths. Most rapists are not mentally ill. I've said this already. That does not mean that they are normal people who simply wake up one day, make a mistake, become a serial rapist for a day, regret it terribly and then return to their natural and normal state of mind. That doesn't happen and to believe so trivializes the issue to a certain degree.

Ugh. Honestly? Sources?
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/20/living/feat-rape-freshmen-women-new-study/
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/sv-datasheet-a.pdf
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-16192494
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/jan/10/sex-crimes-analysis-england-wales (And before you dismiss the guardian, they do provide sources).
"In 2011, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that "nearly 20% of all women" in the United States suffered attempted sexual assault, sexual assault (forced kissing and fondling), attempted rape, and rape sometime in their life. More than a third of the victims were raped before the age of 18.[7]"

So you admit that the study labelled a bunch of sexual offences that were not actually rape rape.

One supposes that the before the age of 18 thing relates to inexperienced teenagers messing around. In retrospect I am sure much of this could be characterised as unwanted sexual behaviour - even I have been "raped" on this metric during my teenage years!

... So sexual assault isn't bad?
"I am sure much of this" Stop assuming things.
A 14 year old and a 16 year old having sex isn't rape due to there not being a big enough age gap between them. A 13-14 year old and a 20 year old having sex is statutory rape, though.

Well quite, tell that to the feminist academics conducting these studies and the feminist journalists reporting them.

No I am hardly justifying it, just pointing out that the supposed contrast you made was no contrast at all - 1 in 180 is exactly the same as 1 in 150

14 and 16 year old is legally statutory rape also.

14 and 16 year old is legally statutory rape also.

Why is a 13 year old boy and a 20 year old woman not statutory rape, you should ask yourself.

Sexual assault is bad but it's hardly as bad as rape, especially as sexual assault can be pretty much anything - many feminists even characterise wolf whistling as sexual assault!

It is inexcusable to collect statistics on sexual assault and pass them off as rape statistics. It's not even sophisticated statistical manipulation! One could make a joke about women and numbers

I'm not sure how the British law works, but still, a 14 year old pressing charges against a 16 year old for consensual sex is highly unlikely, considering it's consensual.

Most of the rapes happen within the family. They're committed by uncles, cousins, godfathers, dad's friends, etc. In these cases, the notion of consent is irrelevant because the victims couldn't consent anyway, and the rapists didn't care about consent. I think that only a very small amount of rapes could be avoided by "teaching men not to rape".

Assuming that most rape allegations are false is insane. The fact is that only 2% of all rape and related sex charges are determined to be false, according to the FBI. This is the same percentage as for other felonies, which means that "women crying rape" is about as likely as people "crying" any other crime. Rape accusations DO happen, and they are problematic when they do, it's toxic to believe that women claiming to have been raped are "lying", but men/women claiming to have been robbed aren't.
While there is a dark number when it comes to how many rape accusations are actually there, the fact that it's about the same percentage as for other felonies is saying something.

I will admit that I misunderstood her at first and that her edit cleared it up, but saying that rapists are normal people is ludicrous, it's not true and she has absolutely no proof to back it up. Of course rapists aren't mentally ill a lot of the time, but they certainly are not normal people, and saying so trivializes rapists (not rape) because she's making them out as less worse than they appear to be, which isn't true.
Do you not understand the meaning of comparisons? I'm saying that having mental health issues and having a mental disorder is not the same thing by drawing comparisons. Jesus Christ.

I'm completely aware of what psychopathy is, I simply abbreviated it to the term psycho, which wasn't entirely correct, but this is the Internet, and I thoroughly do not care.
Do you have any proof to back up what you're saying, that most rapists are "normal people"? If you can provide sources, then fine, but don't come here stating all kinds of things without being able to provide proper sources for it.

Both studies in the US and in the UK point to the fact that there is a common trend of approximately 20% of all women being raped. In countries like Sweden the number is about one out of four. Rape statistics do point to the fact that 1/5 women get raped during their life time.

Hmm, I'll admit that I made a small mistake there, and instead of calling it rape, I should've simply called it sexual assault, as rape is included in that category. Having that said, this points to the fact that 20% of all women will be the victim of attempted/completed sexual assault in their lifetime, which still is an alarmingly high number, and this points to the fact that there are indeed bigger concerns than false rape allegations, which is what I said in the first place.