''Earning'' money/a living is a fallacy.
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Original post by abc:)
There are not always the opportunities... if you're born poor simple things like not being able to afford to relocate, (to name one of a million things), can hold you back.
You don't need to relocate for work? If your living with your parents they are working somewhere? Unless you live in the middle of know where there is opportunity.
If 16 year olds are getting work then someone in poverty can get a job if they actually try from day 1. But they don't. Obviously this isn't scientific but in my area the poorer children don't work as hard in school so of course they aren't gonna go far in life. Literally 2 minutes a go I saw a sc from a girl who lives in a crappy tiny council flat (so I would say lives in relative poverty) and she was complaining that she has 'no
Social life' because she has to go to college 5 days a week (because she hasn't been to school that many days in years it seems like a lot) and that she works 10 hours a week. Like middle class people don't do that in order to do well? For her (and many of the teenagers I know that are poorer then I) working as hard as everyone else (in education, work, volunteers, free extra curricular etc) seems like a massive chore. They aren't gonna get it handed to them on a plate.
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Original post by WannabeDoctor98
You don't need to relocate for work? If your living with your parents they are working somewhere? Unless you live in the middle of know where there is opportunity.
If 16 year olds are getting work then someone in poverty can get a job if they actually try from day 1. But they don't. Obviously this isn't scientific but in my area the poorer children don't work as hard in school so of course they aren't gonna go far in life. Literally 2 minutes a go I saw a sc from a girl who lives in a crappy tiny council flat (so I would say lives in relative poverty) and she was complaining that she has 'no
Social life' because she has to go to college 5 days a week (because she hasn't been to school that many days in years it seems like a lot) and that she works 10 hours a week. Like middle class people don't do that in order to do well? For her (and many of the teenagers I know that are poorer then I) working as hard as everyone else (in education, work, volunteers, free extra curricular etc) seems like a massive chore. They aren't gonna get it handed to them on a plate.
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If 16 year olds are getting work then someone in poverty can get a job if they actually try from day 1. But they don't. Obviously this isn't scientific but in my area the poorer children don't work as hard in school so of course they aren't gonna go far in life. Literally 2 minutes a go I saw a sc from a girl who lives in a crappy tiny council flat (so I would say lives in relative poverty) and she was complaining that she has 'no
Social life' because she has to go to college 5 days a week (because she hasn't been to school that many days in years it seems like a lot) and that she works 10 hours a week. Like middle class people don't do that in order to do well? For her (and many of the teenagers I know that are poorer then I) working as hard as everyone else (in education, work, volunteers, free extra curricular etc) seems like a massive chore. They aren't gonna get it handed to them on a plate.
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It's much easier to work hard in school when you grow up in a middle class family. You have educated parents, and so when you're in school you have background knowledge to draw on, you grasp concepts more easily, and when you go home you have support with homework, advice on colleges and university from people who have been through the process themselves.
Poorer children don't have any of this, and therefore have to work twice as hard to make up the difference. Imagine having parents who can't read. I know two children like this. How are they supposed to do their reading homework? It's easy to see how people fall behind to the point where they don't feel motivated anymore, the odds are stacked against them.
Original post by abc:)
It's much easier to work hard in school when you grow up in a middle class family. You have educated parents, and so when you're in school you have background knowledge to draw on, you grasp concepts more easily, and when you go home you have support with homework, advice on colleges and university from people who have been through the process themselves.
Poorer children don't have any of this, and therefore have to work twice as hard to make up the difference. Imagine having parents who can't read. I know two children like this. How are they supposed to do their reading homework? It's easy to see how people fall behind to the point where they don't feel motivated anymore, the odds are stacked against them.
Poorer children don't have any of this, and therefore have to work twice as hard to make up the difference. Imagine having parents who can't read. I know two children like this. How are they supposed to do their reading homework? It's easy to see how people fall behind to the point where they don't feel motivated anymore, the odds are stacked against them.
Okay I'm middle class- my dad was a drop out and my mum got 1 0-level (in art of all things). Neither dreamed of university or college. The illiteracy rate in the UK in incredibly low, poor people can read? But you know what they worked hard, grafted and we now live a comfortable life (we aren't rich but we don't struggle either)
They aren't well educated, the majority of my family are dyslexic and have behavioural problems and you know what? I work hard at school, always have. You get stuck on homework, you just ask a teacher... That's what they get paid for. They may live in relative poverty but I bet they still have Internet access and tv, there's this thing called Google? Watch documentaries, read up on topics your interested in. You have no excuse. Poverty isn't an excuse, laziness is why people fail school and can't get a job. Library cards are free, jobs can earn a little bit of extra cash, a lot of schools offer bursarys for books/school uniform etc
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(edited 8 years ago)
Middle class people are consistently more successful than working class people. Working class people are consistently more successful than underclass people.
That is all that needs to be said. You can believe in some master race nonsense, or you can acknowledge that poorer people just aren't given the opportunities that richer people have. Just like white people don't like to acknowledge white privilege, middle class people don't like to admit they have a much easier time than poorer people.
That is all that needs to be said. You can believe in some master race nonsense, or you can acknowledge that poorer people just aren't given the opportunities that richer people have. Just like white people don't like to acknowledge white privilege, middle class people don't like to admit they have a much easier time than poorer people.
Original post by WannabeDoctor98
Okay I'm middle class- my dad was a drop out and my mum got 1 0-level (in art of all things). Neither dreamed of university or college.
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Good... I also know a lot of people at university who are the first in their families to go. But I know a lot of people who had an easy ride all the way, too.
Original post by ElephantMemory
Middle class person detected. Flawed scientific research detected.
Sounds like you believe Middle Class people are genetically superior. You going to talk about the Aryan race next?
Sounds like you believe Middle Class people are genetically superior. You going to talk about the Aryan race next?
Studies typically find that middle class people are more intelligent, yes.
Theoretically this is a necessary consequence of intelligence being genetic, which has been confirmed across hundreds of studies. Since (all else equal) more intelligent people are more likely to end up with higher salaries, they will tend to pass on both their intelligence (through genes) and their wealth to their children. As such, you end up with a situation where people born to wealthier parents are more likely to be intelligent than those born to poorer parents. And this has also been empirically confirmed many times.
Original post by abc:)
It's much easier to work hard in school when you grow up in a middle class family.
See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8776880 . Conscientiousness (which somewhat maps onto work ethic) is known to be around 0.45 hereditable.
Original post by poohat
Studies typically find that middle class people are more intelligent, yes.
Theoretically this is a necessary consequence of intelligence being genetic, which has been confirmed across hundreds of studies. Since (all else equal) more intelligent people are more likely to end up with higher salaries, they will tend to pass on both their intelligence (through genes) and their wealth to their children. As such, you end up with a situation where people born to wealthier parents are more likely to be intelligent than those born to poorer parents. And this has also been empirically confirmed many times.
Theoretically this is a necessary consequence of intelligence being genetic, which has been confirmed across hundreds of studies. Since (all else equal) more intelligent people are more likely to end up with higher salaries, they will tend to pass on both their intelligence (through genes) and their wealth to their children. As such, you end up with a situation where people born to wealthier parents are more likely to be intelligent than those born to poorer parents. And this has also been empirically confirmed many times.
It's nonsense propaganda for people who believe in the master race. There are also many studies that show that poverty has a direct effect on brain development.
Original post by phoenixsilver
You're right, but who's to say you can take our wealth and riches away from us?
We like it, what are YOU gonna do, Mr. corbyn?
We like it, what are YOU gonna do, Mr. corbyn?
I thought you were going to leave Britain if Corbyn got made leader of Labour?
Original post by ElephantMemory
It's nonsense propaganda for people who believe in the master race. There are also many studies that show that poverty has a direct effect on brain development.
The fact you dismiss scientific studies with results you dont like as being "nonsense propaganda" shows what an ideologically driven simpleton you are. Unfortunately for you, does not bode well for your future earnings.
Original post by poohat
Studies typically find that middle class people are more intelligent, yes.
Theoretically this is a necessary consequence of intelligence being genetic, which has been confirmed across hundreds of studies. Since (all else equal) more intelligent people are more likely to end up with higher salaries, they will tend to pass on both their intelligence (through genes) and their wealth to their children. As such, you end up with a situation where people born to wealthier parents are more likely to be intelligent than those born to poorer parents. And this has also been empirically confirmed many times.
Theoretically this is a necessary consequence of intelligence being genetic, which has been confirmed across hundreds of studies. Since (all else equal) more intelligent people are more likely to end up with higher salaries, they will tend to pass on both their intelligence (through genes) and their wealth to their children. As such, you end up with a situation where people born to wealthier parents are more likely to be intelligent than those born to poorer parents. And this has also been empirically confirmed many times.
Doesn't apply too me or most of my friends. We have parents that grew up in rough council estates and now I'm hoping to go on to study medicine, other friends of mine are hoping to into other prestigious/academically challenging careers. Most of our parents didn't stay in school till they were 16 :') no offence to my parents but they aren't smart but some how Im doing okay?
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Original post by ElephantMemory
It's all the lottery of birth. You cannot claim to have deserved anything until everybody is on a level playing field.
The middle class can get mad all they want, but it is true.
The middle class can get mad all they want, but it is true.
Because it's not like social mobility exists, is it?
Original post by WannabeDoctor98
Doesn't apply too me or most of my friends. We have parents that grew up in rough council estates and now I'm hoping to go on to study medicine, other friends of mine are hoping to into other prestigious/academically challenging careers. Most of our parents didn't stay in school till they were 16 :') no offence to my parents but they aren't smart but some how Im doing okay?
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(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by poohat
The fact you dismiss scientific studies with results you dont like as being "nonsense propaganda" shows what an ideologically driven simpleton you are. Unfortunately for you, does not bode well for your future earnings.
These studies are widely known to be suspect and have been dismissed time and time again. Of course an idiot like you would feed into them because it benefits you to do so. This is the real world, and in the real world we listen to studies that show evidence instead of biased conjecture.
More recent studies have shown that poverty has a direct effect on brain development. We are talking about actual evidence, and not master race conjecture.
Original post by ElephantMemory
These studies are widely known to be suspect and have been dismissed time and time again. Of course an idiot like you would feed into them because it benefits you to do so. This is the real world, and in the real world we listen to studies that show evidence instead of biased conjecture.
.
.
Please stop making up nonsense.
Yes, there are effects on brain development that come from extreme poverty but a) these have much less impact on IQ than you probably think, and b) 99% of "poor" people in the UK are not living in objective poverty. We arent talking about starving third worlders here, almost everyone in the UK has access to basic housing, food, education, etc.
There are also behaviors such as smoking/drinking during pregnancy and bad childhood nutrition that are more common among lower class parents and almost certainly have negative impacts on their children, but the fact poor people make terrible decisions is kind of their own fault.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Zargabaath
Because it's not like social mobility exists, is it?
Social mobility is middle class propaganda.
Original post by poohat
I also came from a working class background but thats not the point - the research relates to averages. On average, people from working class backgrounds are less intelligent than those from middle class backgrounds, and intelligence is one of the best predictors of social mobility. Of course, there are people from working class backgrounds who are highly intelligent/successful/rich/whatever, just like there are people who smoke 40 cigarettes a day and live to 100 years old. But the average is still lower.
Lower because poor people are lazy. They see that they can get handed money for doing nothing? I can see that if my parents didn't work and got given money I would probably be like 'wait you don't need to work to get money? It gets handed too you?' And then I just wouldn't try. Because why work 6 days a week for **** pay when you can sit on your arse for the same **** pay?
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Original post by poohat
Please stop making up nonsense.
Yes, there are effects on brain development that come from extreme poverty but a) these have much less impact on IQ than you probably think, and b) 99% of "poor" people in the UK are not living in objective poverty. We arent talking about starving third worlders here, almost everyone in the UK has access to basic housing, food, education, etc.
There are behaviors such as smoking/drinking during pregnancy and bad childhood nutrition that are more common among lower class parents, but the bad behavior of these people is hardly some conspiracy.
Yes, there are effects on brain development that come from extreme poverty but a) these have much less impact on IQ than you probably think, and b) 99% of "poor" people in the UK are not living in objective poverty. We arent talking about starving third worlders here, almost everyone in the UK has access to basic housing, food, education, etc.
There are behaviors such as smoking/drinking during pregnancy and bad childhood nutrition that are more common among lower class parents, but the bad behavior of these people is hardly some conspiracy.
Idiot middle class person trivializing poverty in the UK. Well done.
Here is a more recent study from this year rather than the sources you posted from time of the dinosaurs.
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2381542
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ElephantMemory
Idiot middle class person trivializing poverty in the UK. Well done.
Here is a more recent study from this year rather than the sources you posted from time of the dinosaurs.
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2381542
Here is a more recent study from this year rather than the sources you posted from time of the dinosaurs.
http://archpedi.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2381542
This is missing the point - the study you are linking to shows that there is a difference between the brains of poor children, and non-poor children. Noone denies this. The issue is whether that difference is a result of environmental factors (i.e poverty), or whether it is a result of genetics (i.e. they inherited that brain structure from their parents). Nothing in that paper is relevant to that, while there is an enormous literature showing that shared environment (i.e. upbringing and parenting) doesnt play a huge role on most behavioral and cognitive traits.
Additionally, even if non-genetic differences do exist (which they almost certainly do), the next question is who's "fault" they are. Poverty itself does not have any causal effects - its not like £50 notes emit magical radiation which increases the intelligence of children growing up in households containing lots of them. In reality, the most likely channels for poverty to impede brain development are going to be a) the mother's behavior during pregnancy (poor mothers are more likely to be heavy smokers and drinkers), b) bad childhood nutrition, and c) bad parenting during the crucial early years of life (not reading to your children, not challenging them intellectually, etc). All of these basically fall under the heading of "bad parenting", and if poor families are more likely to be bad parents, then who's fault is this?
Note, by the way, that "poverty" doesnt seem to have had much effect on Indian immigrants, many of whom grew up in households earning income below the UK average, yet who now as a group have educational achievements and salary above the UK average.
(edited 8 years ago)
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