is a law degree from an ex-poly useless?
is a law degree from an ex-poly regarded as useless? e.g Hertfordshire, Kingston, Middlesex etc...
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Original post by Mindspace
I guess it depends on what you want to do with it.
Middlesex University LLB graduate - what job could one do with a degree from this institution?
Original post by jamie3333
Middlesex University LLB graduate - what job could one do with a degree from this institution?
Jamie,
Why would it be useless? It has the same value of any other LLB. You can join an LPC after the LLB or the BPTC or it could open up a career in several fields (banking, government). Much depends on your degree classification too.
Original post by christianlaw
Jamie,
Why would it be useless? It has the same value of any other LLB. You can join an LPC after the LLB or the BPTC or it could open up a career in several fields (banking, government). Much depends on your degree classification too.
Why would it be useless? It has the same value of any other LLB. You can join an LPC after the LLB or the BPTC or it could open up a career in several fields (banking, government). Much depends on your degree classification too.
I agree that is has value - it would be harder to get into law though - the filter process gets rid of certain academic institutions - because lets face it Law is still run by the old boys network.
However, a good degree i.e.. a first will get you a job if you are willing to put in the donkey work
Original post by squeakysquirrel
I agree that is has value - it would be harder to get into law though - the filter process gets rid of certain academic institutions - because lets face it Law is still run by the old boys network.
However, a good degree i.e.. a first will get you a job if you are willing to put in the donkey work
However, a good degree i.e.. a first will get you a job if you are willing to put in the donkey work
Not quite true. Whilst I agree that the 'old boys' network still unfortunately exists in parts of the industry, many larger firms are actively seeking to recruit from a wider pool of universities. It is an urban myth that firms have filters in place for universities.
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Original post by pp93
Not quite true. Whilst I agree that the 'old boys' network still unfortunately exists in parts of the industry, many larger firms are actively seeking to recruit from a wider pool of universities. It is an urban myth that firms have filters in place for universities.
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There's no actual filtering but if they need to pick between two candidates who are very similar the university you went to would be a factor
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Original post by G8D
I think this is misleading.
Not to say that this degree wouldn't open up the opportunities you cite, however, bigger law firm and graduate schemes for larger businesses will tend towards 'better' unis. This is for two reasons, 1) prestige (or your 'old boys network'
and 2) other unis are better and an LLB from two different institutions cannot be considered to be of the same worth.
Not to say that this degree wouldn't open up the opportunities you cite, however, bigger law firm and graduate schemes for larger businesses will tend towards 'better' unis. This is for two reasons, 1) prestige (or your 'old boys network'
and 2) other unis are better and an LLB from two different institutions cannot be considered to be of the same worth.I read a lot about this but it is mostly anecdotal. Yes some magic circle top firms will be biased. But this is not entirely accurate as each application is evaluated holistically and individually e.g. a first is always a first. A better University doesn't automatically guarantee a place. Even Oxbridge candidates face their share or rejections.
Unless we are talking about the bar (and even there there are successful barristers with a 2:2 from London Met) there are still a lot of opportunities for hard-working and motivated students.
I don't think that they cannot be considered of the same worth. No firm indicates that a first from University X is less worthy than from University Y so -- while there might be some true for a small number of elite firms -- there are a lot of urban legends mostly propagated by students from the so called "better" universities.
Career success is not determined when you are 18-19 and start University.
Not neccessarily. Google 'Imran Khan Solicitor'. He went to the University of East London and he now works as a Solicitor ( a Higher Rights advocate to be precise). He is famous for representing the family of Stephen Lawrence and its not one of the most famous cases in UK legal history.
Try to carry out lots of probono work, if possible.
Try to carry out lots of probono work, if possible.
Original post by hudamh
Not neccessarily. Google 'Imran Khan Solicitor'. He went to the University of East London and he now works as a Solicitor ( a Higher Rights advocate to be precise). He is famous for representing the family of Stephen Lawrence and its not one of the most famous cases in UK legal history.
Try to carry out lots of probono work, if possible.
Try to carry out lots of probono work, if possible.
Original post by christianlaw
Unless we are talking about the bar (and even there there are successful barristers with a 2:2 from London Met) there are still a lot of opportunities for hard-working and motivated students.
The thing about Imran Khan and Steve Edge, people who either attended a low-tier university or graduated with a 2:2, they attended university 25+ years ago and competed in a job market which existed 25 years ago. It's completely redundant to make claims about the current job market off the back of that.
Alright... I'll give you my opinion on this endlessly debated topic, for what it's worth (which may not be much...).
It depends on what you want to do with your life, but the university you attend plays a major factor in this overly competitive market - not just for law, but for every subject. Smaller companies or firms with smaller offices tend to be even more picky due to the limited places they have.
To corroborate the above, here are a few examples from law firms;
Lets's start with Shearman & Sterling (a US firm), which is pretty transparent on what it's aiming. They only visit a select few universities, yet they still show further preference within these universities. Outside of London, they visit the law fairs of Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Bristol, Nottingham, Newcastle, York and Warwick. From these, they also offer presentations at Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Nottingham and Warwick. And from these, they also offer mock interviews at Oxford and Cambridge only. They do recruit campus ambassadors for some of the other universities (ie apart from Oxbridge), but having mock interviews from the firm itself is not comparable. As you can see, the firm has a very limited focus - it does not mean that they do not recruit from other universities, but their requirements of AAB at A-Level make sure that applicants do not wander away from such universities.
Another notable example is that of Sidley Austin's, and ChambersStudent says characteristically - "Sidley representatives attended seven law fairs in 2014: King's College London, UCL, LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and Exeter. Note, the firm considers applicants from a broader range of universities than these, so don't be put off if yours doesn't appear on the list." Even the use of the word "broader" betrays the whole premise of the statement. Considering that these are the cream of the universities for law, by broader they probably mean universities such as Durham and Warwick - at least in my interpretation.
But it's not just the very selective US firms, it's other firms as well (international or not); Take a look here - You'll see the absolute and expected dominance of Oxbridge, then that of UCL, Durham and Bristol with each having around 10-11 people, and then that of other universities such as LSE, Notthingham, KCL, Exeter and whatnot. I think the pattern here is rather telling and does not need an explanation.
Here's an example from Simmons and Simmons (link)- Look how they visit the same universities three times for presentations, fairs and networking (the last being the most telling probably).
This is a far as law firms go - visit the websites of those you're interested in and you'll probably see similar stuff. Again, this does NOT mean that you can't get a TC from a lower-ranking university. There are people from Oxford Brookes at MC firms - it just means you'll need to do more (often much more) on your own!
I've also seen graduate schemes (not related to law per se) saying straight out that they prefer "redbrick/Russel Group" universities (I'd link this, but I'm too bored to actually search this through Google. If you definitely want to see it, ask away and I'll try to find it).
So, to sum up, the competition is extremely fierce, and universities are naturally at the forefront of all this. You need to think this carefully, especially if you're aiming at a TC. That said, this is your own life, and for all you know what I think may be completely useless, so it's up to you to decide what you want to do!
It depends on what you want to do with your life, but the university you attend plays a major factor in this overly competitive market - not just for law, but for every subject. Smaller companies or firms with smaller offices tend to be even more picky due to the limited places they have.
To corroborate the above, here are a few examples from law firms;
Lets's start with Shearman & Sterling (a US firm), which is pretty transparent on what it's aiming. They only visit a select few universities, yet they still show further preference within these universities. Outside of London, they visit the law fairs of Oxford, Cambridge, Durham, Bristol, Nottingham, Newcastle, York and Warwick. From these, they also offer presentations at Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Nottingham and Warwick. And from these, they also offer mock interviews at Oxford and Cambridge only. They do recruit campus ambassadors for some of the other universities (ie apart from Oxbridge), but having mock interviews from the firm itself is not comparable. As you can see, the firm has a very limited focus - it does not mean that they do not recruit from other universities, but their requirements of AAB at A-Level make sure that applicants do not wander away from such universities.
Another notable example is that of Sidley Austin's, and ChambersStudent says characteristically - "Sidley representatives attended seven law fairs in 2014: King's College London, UCL, LSE, Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol and Exeter. Note, the firm considers applicants from a broader range of universities than these, so don't be put off if yours doesn't appear on the list." Even the use of the word "broader" betrays the whole premise of the statement. Considering that these are the cream of the universities for law, by broader they probably mean universities such as Durham and Warwick - at least in my interpretation.
But it's not just the very selective US firms, it's other firms as well (international or not); Take a look here - You'll see the absolute and expected dominance of Oxbridge, then that of UCL, Durham and Bristol with each having around 10-11 people, and then that of other universities such as LSE, Notthingham, KCL, Exeter and whatnot. I think the pattern here is rather telling and does not need an explanation.
Here's an example from Simmons and Simmons (link)- Look how they visit the same universities three times for presentations, fairs and networking (the last being the most telling probably).
This is a far as law firms go - visit the websites of those you're interested in and you'll probably see similar stuff. Again, this does NOT mean that you can't get a TC from a lower-ranking university. There are people from Oxford Brookes at MC firms - it just means you'll need to do more (often much more) on your own!
I've also seen graduate schemes (not related to law per se) saying straight out that they prefer "redbrick/Russel Group" universities (I'd link this, but I'm too bored to actually search this through Google. If you definitely want to see it, ask away and I'll try to find it).
So, to sum up, the competition is extremely fierce, and universities are naturally at the forefront of all this. You need to think this carefully, especially if you're aiming at a TC. That said, this is your own life, and for all you know what I think may be completely useless, so it's up to you to decide what you want to do!
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by callum_law
The thing about Imran Khan and Steve Edge, people who either attended a low-tier university or graduated with a 2:2, they attended university 25+ years ago and competed in a job market which existed 25 years ago. It's completely redundant to make claims about the current job market off the back of that.
Barrister Tunde Okewale didn't graduate 25 Years ago
http://blogs.londonmet.ac.uk/studentservices/2013/10/15/from-22-to-the-old-bailey-careers-talk-on-thursday-31-october/
Original post by *Stefan*
Here's an example from Simmons and Simmons (link)- Look how they visit the same universities three times for presentations, fairs etc.
This is a far as law firms go - visit the websites of those you're interested in and you'll probably see similar stuff. Again, this does NOT mean that you can't get a TC from a lower-ranking university. There are people from Oxford Brookes at MC firms - it just means you'll need to do more (often much more) on your own!
I've also seen graduate schemes (not related to law per se) saying straight out that they prefer "redbrick/Russel Group" universities (I'd link this, but I'm too bored to actually search this through Google. If you definitely want to see it, ask away and I'll try to find it).
So, to sum up, the competition is extremely fierce, and universities are naturally at the forefront of all this. You need to think this carefully, especially if you're aiming at a TC. That said, this is your own life, and for all you know what I think may be completely useless, so it's up to you to decide what you want to do!
Here's an example from Simmons and Simmons (link)- Look how they visit the same universities three times for presentations, fairs etc.
This is a far as law firms go - visit the websites of those you're interested in and you'll probably see similar stuff. Again, this does NOT mean that you can't get a TC from a lower-ranking university. There are people from Oxford Brookes at MC firms - it just means you'll need to do more (often much more) on your own!
I've also seen graduate schemes (not related to law per se) saying straight out that they prefer "redbrick/Russel Group" universities (I'd link this, but I'm too bored to actually search this through Google. If you definitely want to see it, ask away and I'll try to find it).
So, to sum up, the competition is extremely fierce, and universities are naturally at the forefront of all this. You need to think this carefully, especially if you're aiming at a TC. That said, this is your own life, and for all you know what I think may be completely useless, so it's up to you to decide what you want to do!
Well *some* very elite firms do have a lot of filtering (Simmons & Simmons is a good example) and they even filter via A levels so, obviously, if your options are limited to ex-poly you wouldn't be eligible for their recruitment process anyway.
I am not blaming them at all: there is nothing wrong in selecting the most suitable people.
But there are many firms of solicitors and opportunities to gain a training contract or even to join the bar. It will be more difficult but is possible. I also think that there many careers opportunities outside law (and even inside law e.g. academia by taking an LLM and after that a PhD) so I still think that an LLB is a very valuable degree.
Original post by christianlaw
Barrister Tunde Okewale didn't graduate 25 Years ago
http://blogs.londonmet.ac.uk/studentservices/2013/10/15/from-22-to-the-old-bailey-careers-talk-on-thursday-31-october/
http://blogs.londonmet.ac.uk/studentservices/2013/10/15/from-22-to-the-old-bailey-careers-talk-on-thursday-31-october/
No, he graduated in 2005.
Yes.......Sorry to tell you that, mate, but in these days that is true. If you are training for some in-demand computer technology, bio-medical or engineering job, most Russell Group universities will suffice. However, if you have an arts degree, or something in the social sciences, then you aren't going anywhere with that degree unless it came from Oxford or Cambridge. Sorry, but that's the way this new economy works. Globalisation has made capitalism increasingly competitive, so only the cream at the top will do for most employers today. Of course, it doesn't hurt if your parents socialise with important people of influence within the British establishment. If you're Joe Bloggs, son of a mechanic, who has an MA in History from Huddersfield University, forget about it, mate. Don't get your expectations up about going anywhere in life. The public sector and the civil service used to hire people like this in droves, but public sector hiring is almost non-existent in this age of austerity. Private sector employees only want people who are highly trained in the STEM subjects, and if the job requires a degree in the arts and humanities, then they are looking no further than the latest graduates from Oxbridge.
Original post by Dodge-Slant-6
Yes.......Sorry to tell you that, mate, but in these days that is true. If you are training for some in-demand computer technology, bio-medical or engineering job, most Russell Group universities will suffice. However, if you have an arts degree, or something in the social sciences, then you aren't going anywhere with that degree unless it came from Oxford or Cambridge. Sorry, but that's the way this new economy works. Globalisation has made capitalism increasingly competitive, so only the cream at the top will do for most employers today. Of course, it doesn't hurt if your parents socialise with important people of influence within the British establishment. If you're Joe Bloggs, son of a mechanic, who has an MA in History from Huddersfield University, forget about it, mate. Don't get your expectations up about going anywhere in life. The public sector and the civil service used to hire people like this in droves, but public sector hiring is almost non-existent in this age of austerity. Private sector employees only want people who are highly trained in the STEM subjects, and if the job requires a degree in the arts and humanities, then they are looking no further than the latest graduates from Oxbridge.
I can tell you that several law graduates from Huddersfield (that also offers an exempting MLaw) did find a training contract. I wouldn't want to give you an exact percentage but if I am not mistaken it should be around 60-70%. Other graduates decided to do something else with their degree e.g. work in a different field. May be these placements are not with Simmons & Simmons and other top firms but there is a world outside the magic circle and outside London. Top places have always been competitive and not just in law (think Google and their interview process).
Original post by christianlaw
I can tell you that several law graduates from Huddersfield (that also offers an exempting MLaw) did find a training contract. I wouldn't want to give you an exact percentage but if I am not mistaken it should be around 60-70%. Other graduates decided to do something else with their degree e.g. work in a different field. May be these placements are not with Simmons & Simmons and other top firms but there is a world outside the magic circle and outside London. Top places have always been competitive and not just in law (think Google and their interview process).
I'm pretty sure he's trolling
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Original post by pp93
I'm pretty sure I am not trolling......I wouldn't have spent the time I did writing it if I was trolling. And don't discount what I wrote above. I'm sorry if it isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth. It is a different world out there from when your parents and even your older brothers finished uni and went into the world of work.
It is 100 times more competitive today. You need a degree from Oxbridge and City connections to get anywhere in law, finance, accountancy or business today. It sucks, but it's true. A degree from nearly any other university will not do. Unless, of course, you are in a really hot STEM field outside law. And if you just have some lame arts & humanities degree from the basic Russell Group Redbrick, you might as well immigrate to Canada right now, because there is no job for you unless 'Daddy's firm' is willing to take you on, or you have a family friend with influence in the world of media on Fleet Street, the BBC, or in Whitehall.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Dodge-Slant-6
I'm pretty sure I am not trolling......I wouldn't have spent the time I did writing it if I was trolling. And don't discount what I wrote above. I'm sorry if it isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth. It is a different world out there from when your parents and even your older brothers finished uni and went into the world of work.
It is 100 times more competitive today. You need a degree from Oxbridge and City connections to get anywhere in law, finance, accountancy or business today. It sucks, but it's true. A degree from nearly any other university will not do. Unless, of course, you are in a really hot STEM field outside law. And if you just have some lame arts & humanities degree from the basic Russell Group Redbrick, you might as well immigrate to Canada right now, because there is no job for you unless 'Daddy's firm' is willing to take you on, or you have a family friend with influence in the world of media on Fleet Street, the BBC, or in Whitehall.
It is 100 times more competitive today. You need a degree from Oxbridge and City connections to get anywhere in law, finance, accountancy or business today. It sucks, but it's true. A degree from nearly any other university will not do. Unless, of course, you are in a really hot STEM field outside law. And if you just have some lame arts & humanities degree from the basic Russell Group Redbrick, you might as well immigrate to Canada right now, because there is no job for you unless 'Daddy's firm' is willing to take you on, or you have a family friend with influence in the world of media on Fleet Street, the BBC, or in Whitehall.
I agree with you that it is fiercely competitive but not to the extent you're making it out to be.
I'm not from Oxbridge and yet this year I and many others in my university cohort (law and non-law) managed to get training contracts at a whole range of firms from big international to regional ones without family connections. The same goes for friends and people I know in accountancy and banking.
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