Petition so only British citizens can vote in the EU referendum

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Absolutely right that only British Citizens can vote. EU citizens have a vested interest in staying in and shouldn't have a vote on an issue this important. Cameron is so useless, it's sad.

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Reply 61

TheFroyoBear

Original post by i<3milkshake

So funny how people say EU migrants are highly skilled. Never gets old.

Let us say I live in a rented property. I have rights, sure. But not the full rights the owner has.

Same thing here. These people can come here, they can work, have the same civil and legal rights, but they should not get full rights. They should not be able to interfere in our politics. If I move to Bulgaria or Romania to work and get a work permit on that basis I would be perfectly fine with not being able to vote; after all, it isn't really my country. Yes, I have rights, but not full rights.

Ignore that guy. If you need to have it explained to you why only Brits should be able to vote on such a matter you really are a lost cause.

By definition, a migrant is somebody who comes to another country to seek a better life. It might surprise you to learn that this includes people with no quaöifications or skills as well as university lecturers/postdocs with higher levels of education than most people here (well those that are moving countries to improve their lives/salary/children's educational prospects technically as migrants). I'm sure there are people from the EU and outside whom are classified as migrants by its definition and whom are highly skilled/educated. Therefore it cannot be said that migrants are somehow inherently unskilled - it is not part of the definition and it isn't true either.

Reply 62

TheFroyoBear

Original post by cheese0110

We in Scotland allowed non-UK nationals to vote in our independence referendum which arguably was more important for people living there than the EU referendum would be for people living in the UK.

Reply 63

hektik

Original post by TheFroyoBear

We in Scotland allowed non-UK nationals to vote in our independence referendum which arguably was more important for people living there than the EU referendum would be for people living in the UK.

From my perspective, you Scots shouldn't have let that be the case, and we Britons shouldn't let that be the case for the EU referendum.

Reply 64

garfeeled

Original post by cheese0110

And UK residents who want to stay don't have vested interest, they support it for the pretty flag, and UK residents who want to leave oppose the EU because they don't like Angela merkles face.

People vote in their interested, that's going to happen if your born here or not.

Reply 65

TheFroyoBear

Original post by hektik

From my perspective, you Scots shouldn't have let that be the case, and we Britons shouldn't let that be the case for the EU referendum.

If that's your opinion.

Reply 66

sleepysnooze

Original post by Vikingninja

Those who are living within the UK can decide on what happens. Denying someone that is just racism and a breach of human rights.

you don't even know what racism is - europeans are white. it would be exceptional if they weren't.

Reply 67

i<3milkshake

Original post by TheFroyoBear

Nice speech; it might surprise you that migrants from certain areas are more skilled than others. And as a rule, the wealthier the country the more skilled the migrant. This may surprise you, but no worries.

And what has their desire to get a better life or any of the other rubbish you have posted got to do with anything? Nothing at all. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of the 400,000 EU arrivals each year are not what I would call "skilled workers". Indeed, a Brit could do those jobs I am pretty sure.

Nice speech, condescending with your "it may surprise you". Well it may surprise you that I don't care about your definition of a migrant ort their life stories; fi they are unskilled, like many from the EU, no thank you. Here is where it gets clever;

If a migrant is going to one of the richest countries in the world they will probably be from a poor one. Otherwise why move? Of the 400,000 this year look where they come from. And look at the education standards where they have come from. And look at the jobs these people do. It can therefore be said that most migrants are unskilled. Again, never gets old how people think these EU migrants are skilled.

Reply 68

i<3milkshake

Original post by United1892

If they can vote in EU elections they should be able to vote in this. Simple.

Some people don't want them to be able to vote in any elections, but in less important ones can put up with it. However, when it comes to this they won't.

Simply put you can't ask non-Brits to make a decision about whether Britain should leave the EU. It is none of their business, they should have no say, and they are more likely to vote in the best interests of THEIR countrymen rather than the UK.

So vote to keep the UK paying child support and other benefits for kids who don't even live in the EU,
Vote to stop the UK being even able to control its own borders (madness a country can't even control that; it really shows how much power the EU has stripped from the UK).
Vote keep migrants coming over and being crime and security concerns.
Vote to keep migrants coming over and damaging the culture of the UK in favour of theirs.
Vote to make it harder for UK people to get housing, a job, school places, etc but easier for their countrymen to steal them.
Vote to keep the UK giving 55. MILLION. A. DAY. To subsidise their home countries.

The only simple thing is the argument for not letting them vote. Then again, you are a Marxist so would be happy to see the cultural, social and financial destruction of the UK.

Reply 69

TheFroyoBear

Original post by i<3milkshake

Well I'm sorry if you don't like the definition of a migrant that I've given but that is what the definition of one is.

Education standards in EU countries are amongst the highest in the world. In countries that ae seen as least wealthy in the EU (eg. Romania, Bulgaria...), their literacy rates are very similar to our own - 97.7% in Romania as opposed to 99% here. And funnily enough, it is harder to get an A in a Romanian high school than it is to get one in an English A-level. Now I'm not saying that everyone who comes here from the EU (which includes rich countries as well as "educated" ones - eg. France, Germany, Sweden) are educated and highly skilled, I am saying that it is not accurate to paint everybody here in the same negative brush that you currently hold.

And yes, I agree with you that British people can take up these unskilled jobs as well. So why don't they? If you are an unemployed British person with no qualifications that would allow you to seek well-paid jobs, then I'm afraid you're going to have to take up a low-paid job and start from there. No point blaming migrants for jobs that people don't want to do. Education in this country is free and if people do not value the importance of it, then they must bear the consequences in later life as they find themselves unemployable.

Reply 70

addyaxis

Original post by saxsan4

its my Country, therefore i have the right to decide what happens, if i go to the USA i don't deserve to decide what effects them.

YOUR country? Do you own land? Do you dictate what happens inside these borders? It's not your country, it's not anybody's.

What a citizenship is, is just a piece of paper that ties you to a chunk of land that tells you that you have to abide to these laws and pay taxes for these things etc etc

Last time I heard, there is a large number of people who don't even follow laws or even pay taxes. But they're born in the UK, so that's fine!! They totally get a say because it's THEIR country!

I would like to have a say, no matter what country I lived in, about what happens even if I wasn't born there or have the residency for a citizenship (yet).

Reply 71

WokSz

Original post by addyaxis

I see your point. However, by your logic what right do you have to vote in, say, my country? Citizenship allows individuals to be bound by certain laws to a nation's history and identity. It is not the only form of attachment but it's one that works in the majority.

Reply 72

BaconandSauce

Original post by Vikingninja

. Denying someone that is just racism and a breach of human rights.

No it's not. :s-smilie:

Reply 73

L i b

I believe that a referendum ought to have the same franchise as the legislature that's calling it. That's why I supported EU citizens having a vote in the Scottish referendum last year - but I oppose it in this one. It's not a perfect system by any manner of means, but it stops franchises being altered for political ends.

Virtually all countries have citizenship requirements for voting. In the UK's case, we have historically treated lawfully resident Irish and Commonwealth citizens as not being foreigners, and having effectively the same rights while resident here that British citizens have. If we're going to change that, it should be changed for everything, and it would be a very serious national debate to have.

Reply 74

L i b

Original post by TheFroyoBear

We in Scotland allowed non-UK nationals to vote in our independence referendum which arguably was more important for people living there than the EU referendum would be for people living in the UK.

I'd suggest to try to work these questions out based on importance of the subject would be an expressly political decision that could never really be judged objectively. I think we need something more consistent than that to avoid franchise decisions being politicised for the benefit of one side or another.

The UK has had two national referendums: on membership of the EC and AV. So far as I can see, the general election franchise has been used for both (with one small variation: Members of the Lords were allowed to vote). I think we should maintain that precedent for the reasons I mention in my previous post.

Reply 75

wqzu

Original post by saxsan4

No one mentioned race, therefore its not racism, I know the definition perfectly, please explain how this is racist? No one said ''only white people should vote'' therefore how is it racist?

No, you're right, you didn't say only white people should vote. You did say that only British citizens should vote, though.

And ''arsed'' is not a word.

It most certainly is. http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/can't+be+arsed

Reply 76

hektik

Original post by wqzu

No, you're right, you didn't say only white people should vote. You did say that only British citizens should vote, though.

"British citizens" aren't a race. Therefore, saying only British citizens should be able to vote isn't racist.

Reply 77

wqzu

Original post by hektik

"British citizens" aren't a race. Therefore, saying only British citizens should be able to vote isn't racist.

There's only one race - human. That's not bleeding heart speech either - a black man and a white man are the same race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

Racism is prejudice against different nationalities, therefore it is racist.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 78

hektik

Original post by wqzu

There's only one race - human. That's not bleeding heart speech either - a black man and a white man are the same race. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(biology)

There is a small degree of freedom for where biologists draw the line between different groups of organisms. For example, I believe there exists a species of lion that is divided into two distinct sub-species, the sub-species which are genetically closer to one-another (however genetic closeness is determined) than, for example, indigenous Europeans and indigenous Sub-Saharan Africans. We don't choose to class Europeans and Sub-Saharan Africans as separate sub-species, nor do I believe we should, but going by the way biologists have previously separated organisms of the same species, in theory we could.

So yes, we are the same species and if everyone ignored the fact that there are differences between different populations of people, we would likely get on much better than we currently do. But the fact of the matter is that these differences exist, and as much as they may not matter, they matter enough to a lot of people that some people will discriminate against certain people because they originate from a different population of people, i.e. a different race. And so racism exist, and it's a good thing that we recognise racism exists, or we would be blind to the discrimination that people of other races face.

Original post by wqzu

Racism is prejudice against different nationalities, therefore it is racist.

Racism: Discriminating against somebody because of their race.
Prejudice: The forming of an opinion before becoming aware of the relevant facts of a case.
Nationality: Belonging to a particular nation.

Racism is prejudice against different race, not nationalities.

Xenophobia is prejudice against different nationalities, but in this case, xenophobia isn't an issue because there is no prejudice occurring. We know all the relevant facts. This is a referendum for whether Britain stays in the EU. The British people are Britain, they are themselves the nation. So if the referendum to for whether Britain should remain in the EU, non-British people don't get a say. If they want a say, they need to gain citizenship.

Reply 79

wqzu

Original post by hektik

snip

Race from a social point of view is a group of people sharing similar qualities. Do british citizens not share the similar quality of being a british citizen?

If they want a say, they need to gain citizenship.
They already live here. You and I got off easy by being born here, they had to work for it. They most definitely deserve a say, seeing as how it'll affect them and all.