Ucas to enforce 'name-blind' applications to tackle racial bias

Amid fears that BME students are losing out to white contemporaries when they apply for university, the prime minister will say that Ucas will make its applications “name-blind” from 2017.

This sounds like a good idea to me. I must say, I was surprised that this wasn't already in place.

I also don't see why most job applications shouldn't have names removed to remove any sex or ethnicity bias, much as age, martial status and nationality are not included in CVs any more. Candidates should be identified by a number, which is then cross-checked against a list holding their name and contact details once the initial selection decisions have been made. Would give HR something actually useful to do.

What do you think?

Reply 1

DiddyDec01

3

It is great idea but there is still going to be an issue once it gets to interview stage.

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Reply 2

16Characters....

13

^^ What DiddyDec said. It sounds like a good idea on paper (and still worth doing nonetheless since the majority of unis and courses do not require an interview) but for people who get interviewed it will not work so it's not a total solution.

Reply 3

somnacin

7

Hmm. I think this will actually help the middle / upper class, as universities will no longer take positive discrimination into consideration.

Reply 4

16Characters....

13

Original post by somnacin

Hmm. I think this will actually help the middle / upper class, as universities will no longer take positive discrimination into consideration.

How do you identify class from someone's name?

Reply 5

somnacin

7

Original post by 16Characters....

How do you identify class from someone's name?

... And other factors such as race and sex. Gosh. Either way, my point on positive bias stands.

(But yes, I think it's certainly possible to distinguish class with a name if it happens to have a title attached or is obviously "posh" sounding)

Reply 6

United1892

12

Original post by somnacin

Hmm. I think this will actually help the middle / upper class, as universities will no longer take positive discrimination into consideration.

However surely if they're choosing based on ability rather than race it's a much fairer system.

Reply 7

BaconandSauce

5

It's not going to change anything as they will still have to have an interview

and it will still be obvious from some applications for those who will fit in with the existing community of students

Reply 8

somnacin

7

Original post by United1892

However surely if they're choosing based on ability rather than race it's a much fairer system.

I certainly agree! However, I'm saying that any conscious bias that may have been helping certain races to get in (as Universities strive to look "better" in the number game less they be called out, as this Guardian article does) will not exist, and perhaps this new policy will actually lower their chances.

Who knows? Maybe numbers will go up once it is implemented. But honestly, we don't know for sure if it's actually a good or bad thing in the long run.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 9

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by United1892

However surely if they're choosing based on ability rather than race it's a much fairer system.

But it's more than just about ability

Reply 10

United1892

12

Original post by somnacin

I certainly agree! However, I'm saying that any conscious bias that may have been helping certain races to get in (as Universities strive to look "better" in the number game less they be called out, as this Guardian article does) will not exist, and perhaps this new policy will actually lower their chances.

Who knows? Maybe numbers will go up once it is implemented. But honestly, we don't know for sure if it's actually a good or bad thing in the long run.

However the guardian article link suggests they are failing to achieve this very well, so it could help.

Also if this happens it will just be the best applicants getting the places, if this rate is disproportionally low for ethnic minorities we are better off tackling this at an earlier age.

Reply 11

16Characters....

13

Original post by somnacin

... And other factors such as race and sex. Gosh. Either way, my point on positive bias stands.

(But yes, I think it's certainly possible to distinguish class with a name if it happens to have a title attached or is obviously "posh" sounding)

There is no law stating you can have a "posh" name if and only if you are posh, and the vast majority of "posh" people do not have a title. Therefore it is not always possible to identify class based on name. So a system of positive bias based on identifying people by their name is not practical. Instead such decisions could be made far more simply by looking at their education history.

On the other hand hiding names from universities before offers are made could be legitimately helpful (note "could", ultimately we know nothing until we have a few UCAS cycles worth of data to look at), so it's well worth a trial in my opinion.

Reply 12

somnacin

7

Original post by United1892

Also if this happens it will just be the best applicants getting the places, if this rate is disproportionally low for ethnic minorities we are better off tackling this at an earlier age.

Yeah, but people are griping that not enough ethnic minorities are getting in, not if the applicants selected are the best or not :s-smilie:

Reply 13

sdotd

17

what a stupid idea, leave things as they are

Reply 14

chazwomaq

OP

18

Original post by 16Characters....

How do you identify class from someone's name?

Rufus Fotherington-Smyth vs Mason Brown.

Have fun here: http://www.netmums.com/pregnancy/g/the-poshest-baby-names/146586

Reply 15

Johann von Gauss

14

Very good idea, much better and fairer than quotas

Reply 16

the bear

20

Original post by 16Characters....

How do you identify class from someone's name?

Gervase Twistleton-Wyckham-Ffynnes is not going to turn up wearing a fake gold chain and Tommy Hilfiger trackie.

Reply 17

chazwomaq

OP

18

Original post by BaconandSauce

It's not going to change anything as they will still have to have an interview

and it will still be obvious from some applications for those who will fit in with the existing community of students

Most unis don't interview, do they?

It would actually be a great experiment to compare the progress of different sexes, classes, ethnicity etc. through the two systems with and without names on the applications. Then look at the same variables going for those through an interview process. That should help identify where any bias might be occurring or not.

You'd have to randomly allocate people to each system, so I doubt it will ever happen.

Reply 18

United1892

12

Original post by somnacin

Yeah, but people are griping that not enough ethnic minorities are getting in, not if the applicants selected are the best or not :s-smilie:

If they want to tackle that they need to make the system fairer so that ethnic minorities aren't behind in terms of grades.

Reply 19

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by chazwomaq

Most unis don't interview, do they?

It would actually be a great experiment to compare the progress of different sexes, classes, ethnicity etc. through the two systems with and without names on the applications. Then look at the same variables going for those through an interview process. That should help identify where any bias might be occurring or not.

You'd have to randomly allocate people to each system, so I doubt it will ever happen.

Most don't some do but as we know it's about compatibility as well as ability

But I do agree with this as I belong to one of the groups who are suffering

Ucas to enforce 'name-blind' applications to tackle racial bias

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