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Meritocracy vs Positive Discrimination

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Reply 20
Avatar for TheNote
TheNote
3
Googled racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Don't see anything about power in there, in fact it seems to only concentrate on the actual DISCRIMINATION part, which you seem to support, so it would appear that most people in this country and perhaps in the world would label you as a racist.

Until you come up with good responses to me other than. RACISM IS EVERYWHERE PLS BELIEVE MEH. Then please leave you troll
(edited 8 years ago)
Lol @ only white people can be racist.

I've judged you for your words not your race and my judgement is if you as a person didn't exist it wouldn't be a loss.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all


Positive discrimination is paper over the cracks.

I'm not sure what being minority ethnic has to do with networking access, education or less structured households (imprisonment may be another thing). Surely these are functions of class, wealth and family education - these might correlate with ethnicity, but to use ethnicity as a proxy for being lower class, poor and uneducated is harmful in itself. As would be selecting people for jobs or education on the basis of race.

Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE

I just want society to be fixed mate. that means giving BMEs those opportunities and doorways into those jobs and places which allow them to help their communities and bring up BMEs.


Correct, but you're advocating a very simplistic way of doing that.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 23
Avatar for Tahret
Tahret
9
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
cant be racist since people of my colour do not have the institutional power necessary to impose stereotypes on other people of colour. try again

I just want society to be fixed mate. that means giving BMEs those opportunities and doorways into those jobs and places which allow them to help their communities and bring up BMEs.


Oh, you're one of these idiots.

You can't change the definition of racism to suit your agenda. Giving BMEs institutional privilege and giving whites institutional barriers is the very definition of your "power+prejudice" bull**** anyway.
In an ideal world you wouldn't need or want positive discrimination.
Unfortunately we very much do need it at the moment. Hopefully one day we won't.

Cheers.
Do we actually have positive discrimination when it comes to race?

As far as I am aware the only institutional positive discrimination that exists in this country is based on gender and is usually targeted at women.
Positive discrimination is shameful and unfair.
LOOK at theresa may and the police. the met police is hugely unrepresentative and due to its history and the current times non-whites/non-brits don't trust them. Going on pure meritocracy anyone should be a policeman, but considering the strained community relationship with the police it is necessary to encourage more people of colour into their ranks. that's why they're currentlly advertising a slight positive discrimination policy in their grad scheme. Like sure ideally PD is wrong but we dont live in ideals. Banks should fail. the markets should be free. Businesses should not be forced to divest their assets for competition purposes. Guess what though at times the government must intervene in order to encourage and protect social cohesion.

Thus, if it helps solve crime and defeat racism surely PD should be used where candidates going for a job,both having similar job experiences but, the white candidate is slightly superior, then for the greater good of that particular industry, the employer should choose the BME indvidual. case by case basis though
Original post by Tahret
Oh, you're one of these idiots.

You can't change the definition of racism to suit your agenda. Giving BMEs institutional privilege and giving whites institutional barriers is the very definition of your "power+prejudice" bull**** anyway.


Listen mate people of colour will never rule britain dont you worry. All im asking is for 50% of young black men not to be unemployed, result to crime and fulfilling the never ending cycle of crime and poverty, and for 1/3 of black grads to not be less likely of getting a job than their white counterparts after . PD may be extreme, but Racism is terrible and wont go away . The idea that we can combat it all as individuals without government intervention is utter crap
You have ovaries, more skin pigment or belong to a minority religion.

Here have this job

Or

Are you the best person for the job.

The second one makes sense the first doesn't.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
You cant deal with institutional discrimination simply by getting rid of illegal discrimination. BMEs are already excluded through things like indirect discrimination. The system has been built on racist notions , racist principles and patriarchy. There are no easy solutions, (and i challenge to you to put another proposition other than affirmative action) but at the end of the day the disenfranchisement of BMEs is unfair and we cant keep calling them scum when riots occur but give them no assistance to get to those top positions which could help BME societies and england in general


You clearly have no idea what you're harping on about, you are just looking for something to blame for your failures beyond yourself. And I already have pt forwards a solution other than discrimination, that is getting rid of the discrimination based on arbitrary features, rather than just adding even more.
Equality policies should be a means to the end of achieving meritocracy. If it turns out that that results in uneven distribution by race or gender in certain fields, then we have to accept that.
Original post by Jammy Duel
. And I already have pt forwards a solution other than discrimination, that is getting rid of the discrimination based on arbitrary features, rather than just adding even more.


that hasnt worked
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
that hasnt worked


So should we also stop tackling global warming, or change tact and tackle it by polluting even more heavily, because our methods haven't yet completely stopped it and rolled back the clock? How about in the battle against world poverty stop giving out aid and demand that the countries we pay aid to start paying us because there is still poverty in the world? Or how about we engage in nuclear war because clearly not doing so is not leading to world peace?
The question is flawed as it already pints to as certain point fo view.

Meritocracy can only exist when equality of opportunity exists. People who advocate positive destination usually do so to counteract a perceived inequality of opportunity or to help change relations between privileged and underprivileged groups in society.
Two points

1- racism exists in every culture and ethnicity, and like slavery and colonialism is far from unique to whites.

2- I agree with @Bornblue on positive discrimination- for instance there had to be some level of it in 1960s usa- and I could argue for more to be done in this area for law enforcement now.
There is no such thing as 'positive' discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination. Jobs should be given purely on merit, whether that person comes from an over represented ethnic group, or an under represented one.


Posted from TSR Mobile
Biggest problem with positive discrimination is that it leads to the perception (correct or otherwise) that non-majority candidates are less qualified. Consider this system:

12 white and 3 BME candidates apply for a job. There are four places available, but the employer wants to employ equal numbers of white and BME people.

1st: BME
2nd: White
3rd: White
4th: White
5th: White
6th: BME

Positive discrimination (or discrimination, let's not dress things up) causes fourth to be replaced by sixth. In the end, you sacrifice having a more skilled workforce for what? Diversity? Equality? More like political correctness.

We should encourage BME people to work hard, apply to university and have high aspirations, but giving them a leg up is disrespectful and racist.

Besides, I come from an area in the 20% most deprived in England. There will be BME candidates much more privileged than me. Why should I lose out?
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all


1) if you're saying that BME individuals in society can only get anywhere if we spoon feed them good outcomes, as opposed to them having to compete for them like and with everybody else, then you seem to be giving us a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is "BME people are incapable. therefore, let's prove they're not incapable by making them look incapable". if they cant play by common standards then they deserve what they're given

2) positive discrimination isn't only, as I've highlighted above, unfair to BMEs (because it robs them of their dignity and rational-status), but it is also unfair to non-BMEs, because they will have to play by a harder pallet of rules with absolutely no logical rationale other than "making them work harder for the same result with result in a society where BMEs are better off" - I don't care who is better off - I don't care if non-BMEs are worse off, even - if you can't climb the ladder, don't expect yourself to *deserve* to get up it. you don't deserve to get up it at all - and if you don't end up getting up it, even if you played by the same rules as everyone else, then you are exactly where you ought to be - at the bottom of the ladder.

3) isn't it dishonest to give BMEs a fast-lane ticket in society if, without it, they'd never end up where the government is purporting them to be? I don't think giving society a lie is going to make people feel better about BME individuals - in fact, I think it's going to make them feel worse about them, especially given point number 2

4) if race doesn't matter in society, what would be the point of this? if race *does* matter and that it is something people should feel passionately about, even though, for the last 100+ years we've had free education for all people and race doesn't make somebody unfairly treated in terms of their effort alone, then this will favour white people, surely? what would be stopping BMEs from succeeding if this is a racial argument in a context of fair meritocracy in the education system? if we mak this ethnocentric, then it will make white people look more capable/more successful from their own efforts, or else, BMEs are precisely the opposite of these things. solution: race doesn't matter. we're all equal under the law. so we shouldn't lie to ourselves by treating some "more equal than others"
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by DIN-NARYU-FARORE
i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all


I find affirmative action to be a lazy short term fix to the long term problem of prejudice.

Most of the time Blacks & Ethnic Minorities scream the racism card when things don't go their way. The problem with this is they automatically distance themselves from uniting with people who suffer from other forms of prejudice.

Disablism, Religious Hatred, Misogyny etc.

The root causes of prejudice must be tackled rather than handing out I-WIN entitlements to under represented minorities of any sort.

You could jump up and down about the young BME employment rate but there are other groups which share similar statistical values. Disabled people = 54% unemployment rate etc.

I would love to see the day that a unqualified Black man is given a job over a qualified White disabled man in a wheel chair on the basis that White men contributed towards slavery. Oh wait a minute this happens in the USA everyday.
(edited 8 years ago)

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