Meritocracy vs Positive Discrimination

So should we also stop tackling global warming, or change tact and tackle it by polluting even more heavily, because our methods haven't yet completely stopped it and rolled back the clock? How about in the battle against world poverty stop giving out aid and demand that the countries we pay aid to start paying us because there is still poverty in the world? Or how about we engage in nuclear war because clearly not doing so is not leading to world peace?

1) if you're saying that BME individuals in society can only get anywhere if we spoon feed them good outcomes, as opposed to them having to compete for them like and with everybody else, then you seem to be giving us a self-fulfilling prophecy, which is "BME people are incapable. therefore, let's prove they're not incapable by making them look incapable". if they cant play by common standards then they deserve what they're given

2) positive discrimination isn't only, as I've highlighted above, unfair to BMEs (because it robs them of their dignity and rational-status), but it is also unfair to non-BMEs, because they will have to play by a harder pallet of rules with absolutely no logical rationale other than "making them work harder for the same result with result in a society where BMEs are better off" - I don't care who is better off - I don't care if non-BMEs are worse off, even - if you can't climb the ladder, don't expect yourself to *deserve* to get up it. you don't deserve to get up it at all - and if you don't end up getting up it, even if you played by the same rules as everyone else, then you are exactly where you ought to be - at the bottom of the ladder.

3) isn't it dishonest to give BMEs a fast-lane ticket in society if, without it, they'd never end up where the government is purporting them to be? I don't think giving society a lie is going to make people feel better about BME individuals - in fact, I think it's going to make them feel worse about them, especially given point number 2

4) if race doesn't matter in society, what would be the point of this? if race *does* matter and that it is something people should feel passionately about, even though, for the last 100+ years we've had free education for all people and race doesn't make somebody unfairly treated in terms of their effort alone, then this will favour white people, surely? what would be stopping BMEs from succeeding if this is a racial argument in a context of fair meritocracy in the education system? if we mak this ethnocentric, then it will make white people look more capable/more successful from their own efforts, or else, BMEs are precisely the opposite of these things. solution: race doesn't matter. we're all equal under the law. so we shouldn't lie to ourselves by treating some "more equal than others"

some of the things you mentioned, such as aid, are actually done for the West's benefit more than anything else. The amount of bull**** going on between Africa and the west is so much and all aid does is pacify the issue

When it comes to things like race the reason society handles it poorly because it wants to keep the status quo. With all the initiatives and schemes, so long as this society remains racist we will not see the change in jobs and professions needed to make society actually be equal

I find affirmative action to be a lazy short term fix to the long term problem of prejudice.

Most of the time Blacks & Ethnic Minorities scream the racism card when things don't go their way. The problem with this is they automatically distance themselves from uniting with people who suffer from other forms of prejudice.

Disablism, Religious Hatred, Misogyny etc.

The root causes of prejudice must be tackled rather than handing out I-WIN entitlements to under represented minorities of any sort.

You could jump up and down about the young BME employment rate but there are other groups which share similar statistical values. Disabled people = 54% unemployment rate etc.

I would love to see the day that a unqualified Black man is given a job over a qualified White disabled man in a wheel chair on the basis that White men contributed towards slavery. Oh wait a minute this happens in the USA everyday.

I don't think society as a whole is racist. There are racist individuals, but under a meritocracy everyone can reach the top. Race is not the main factor in societal inequalities, it is class. You cannot tell me that a middle class BME is disadvantaged compared to a white from an impoverished area. If you said that where I'm from, you'd last two minutes.

You're wrong

Plus im not saying Blacks can't make it. im saying the system has been made in a way to disadvantage statistically. in a meritocratic society blacks would be at the top more because most people in society want to do well. Now dont get me wrong person accountability must be held but systemic reason blacks havent done as well is because of the views of white people eg white flight, taking the money out of BME communites and putting them a step down, thus making meritocracy that much harder for them .

I get the feeling that our differences in opinion are down to differing experiences. I live in an area that is 20% BME in a town that is 4% BME. We all have it rough where I live. You do have to work very hard. But any forms of positive discrimination are going to exclude people like me at the expense of middle class BME people. Some of these will have the belief that you don't have to work hard, you just get success given. Besides, there hasn't really been time for differences to fully settle out. Within a few decades these problems will decline massively.

Unlikely.

white privilege works in way that even if you're in a lower social class than a black person, you are still more likely to have an easier time at life than blacks in certain aspects. the black person may have more money than you, but that black person probably cant go to russia without being spat on/cursed/attacked, may be targeted by police, may have to jump extra hurdles to get a job, may have to abandon their heritage to be accepted by their peers and it goes on and on. so yes they are economically better than you, but you also have access leverage which they do not

i know equality of oppourtunity is theoretically better than equality of outcome, but with poorer education, more likelihood of imprisonment, less amenities, less networking opportunities and less structured households how do we expect BME to be represented in the work force if we don't positively discriminate at all

Nice grammar. Also it's BAME, and I do not agree with your idea of discrimination, white people are discriminated against enough.

I'm curious as to what examples you would give for discrimination against white people, with the exception of these "positive discrimination" schemes, and other initiatives to promote minority candidates above white people (such as fast track management programmes).

im not talking about put an English grad black student over a maths white student for a job as an analyst. im talking about situations where the black student and white student have similar work experience backgrounds, the white candidate is slightly better, but you choose the black candidate in order to sort out this mess that the government has not helped. positive discrimination is an issue of public policy and should only arise in places where representation is seriously low and where the difference between the black and white candidate is trifling

Deciding which of two candidates to give a job to based on something as arbitrary as the colour of their skin is moronic.

Giving the job to the less qualified candidate based on the colour of their skin is going full retard.

Basing a professional decision on bull**** "social" factors isn't very professional. Nor is it particularly practical or morally righteous. Which is why meritocracy is the way forward; the best person for the job getting the job is the way it should be.

As other people have said, positive discrimination is still discrimination.
If not giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin is racist, then how is giving someone a job based on the colour of their skin not racist? The deciding factor is the same, the only difference is the outcome.

Nice grammar. Also it's BAME, and I do not agree with your idea of discrimination, white people are discriminated against enough.

im not saying do PD forever, im saying do it in certain situations to better the situation of those that are underprivileged

honestly people are acting like Britain didnt get its wealth from stealing from other countries, thus forcing those countries's inhabitants to relocate here

The reason BMEs dont automatically unite with others suffering prejudice is because you cannot always conflate the issues of Black people and say feminist issues. A person who is disabled may face discrimination and prejudice but will face a different sort than to black people and the feelings felt may be different over a long period of time.

Feminism in it's problems pales in comparison to the seriousness of racism.

Also Bringing up the race card is racist.

Poorer education than who?
Greater likelihood of imprisonment...which is irrelevant if you stay within the confines of the law
less amenities, not quite sure what the relevance is here, the only vaguely relevant definition is ultimately down to you, if you want to be a dick you can't really blame society, at least not in the vast majority of cases
less structured households, what do you even mean by this?

And why is it that people insist on adding the B to BME/BEM? Are negroids somehow more important than all other "minorities"?