Has Corbyn dumbed down the Labour Party by purging Oxbridge grads?
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Original post by Rat_Bag
1. his positions... I believe would be extremely damaging to the country)
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day...
Elsewhere in this thread you said that you wanted a "fair fight."
Anyone who wants a fair fight to be had with a politician who by his own admission would be extremely damaging to the country is a naive fool.
If the best these Oxbridge grads can do is to routinely misunderstand statistics and only be able to argue through propaganda then I literally don't care. Find someone competent and be open-minded.
There may have been a few mistakes (annoying the Saudi government, one of our biggest export markets in the whole world showed real statesmanship!) but has Jez started to turn round the opinion polls?
It would seem sadly not. You Gov have done an opinion survey on his first month in charge. (Can't find it online yet, but will link when it finally appears)
Starting with the worst approval rating of any new opposition leader at minus 8 he has slumped to minus 20 in his first four weeks..
30% of voters think he is doing well at his job, 50% think he is doing badly. Normally they call these early days a "honeymoon period." In Jezza's case the people are asking for a divorce before he has even packed away the wedding night lingerie...
It would seem sadly not. You Gov have done an opinion survey on his first month in charge. (Can't find it online yet, but will link when it finally appears)
Starting with the worst approval rating of any new opposition leader at minus 8 he has slumped to minus 20 in his first four weeks..
30% of voters think he is doing well at his job, 50% think he is doing badly. Normally they call these early days a "honeymoon period." In Jezza's case the people are asking for a divorce before he has even packed away the wedding night lingerie...
You'd only find this tripe on TSR.
Original post by Unkempt_One
If the best these Oxbridge grads can do is to routinely misunderstand statistics and only be able to argue through propaganda then I literally don't care. Find someone competent and be open-minded.
I think you very much DO care.
If there is one thing worse than Oxbridge condescension, it is the inverted snobbery of those who hate and despise it.
For reasons that one can guess at, but would be too polite to even allude to.
It is the same with Eton, and of the attacks on Cameron (but not Boris) for having been sent there by his parents. Most of those who foam at the mouth at the very existence of Eton would have loved to have gone there and would give their right arms to send their sons.
Rightly so, it is arguably the best and most famous school in the whole world. And I say this as someone who went to a "bog standard" Comprehensive, myself.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
John Major left school without any qualifications.
Britain has already elected such a leader.
NEXT QUESTION
Britain has already elected such a leader.
NEXT QUESTION
This thread is five pages long, and I am conscious that I haven't properly addressed this post yet. And it has fifteen reps so far, and while some may be the usual Toy Town Trots, there could also be people with sensible political views who are taken in with the speciousness of this argument. Who don't realise the fallacy it contains.
The proposition I made was that Corby is too stupid to occupy the highest office in the land, and I pointed to his miserable educational attainment of two E's at A Level. There has been a lot of discussion about this, particularly the Oxbridge comment I made, and clearly it is more than legitimate to contest this.
This post is an invalid refutation however. The proposition that Corbyn is stupid and unfit to be PM, and had a terrible education, is not disproved by the fact that John Major had a terrible education and became a (passable but not great) PM.
Or indeed Jim Callaghan.
Both of those PMs came from disadvantaged backgrounds, had terrible formal educations, but were self taught, highly intelligent, and fiercely ambitious. Both of them, interestingly held the two most senior Offices of State below PM. (Both were Chancellor and Foreign Secretary, Callaghan was Home Secretary also).
Corbyn came from a more privileged background than those two and went to a better school. But nothing he has achieved so far and he is in his sixties remotely resembles Major and Callaghan . He has held no ministerial office, he even got the leadership due to forces outside his control. By accident almost.
It is not so much that the John Major example doesn't disprove my proposition. Although it clearly doesn't as a matter of logic.
It is that even to mention the two in the same breath as political figures is risible.
Corbyn is going to sink into oblivion without ever getting ministerial office of any kind. I will bet any of you, any money you like that that is the case. PM me.
My proposition stands and no-one on this thread has refuted it.
Corbyn isn't fit to be the Leader of our Country.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by the bear
Mr Corbyn was brought up in a manor house and went to selective school. his partner sent her son to private school.
Good point Bear.
After Prep School and a boyhood in a Manor House Corbyn became
an "Old Novarportian" having been educated at one of the top schools in the country...
"Adams' Grammar School regularly places in the top 50 schools throughout the country and top 20 state schools nationally based on GCSE and A-level results."
John Major was famously described by one of his Ministers as having come from "the wrong side of the tracks."
Original post by chocolate hottie
Good point Bear.
After Prep School and a boyhood in a Manor House Corbyn became
an "Old Novarportian" having been educated at one of the top schools in the country...
"Adams' Grammar School regularly places in the top 50 schools throughout the country and top 20 state schools nationally based on GCSE and A-level results."
John Major was famously described by one of his Ministers as having come from "the wrong side of the tracks."
After Prep School and a boyhood in a Manor House Corbyn became
an "Old Novarportian" having been educated at one of the top schools in the country...
"Adams' Grammar School regularly places in the top 50 schools throughout the country and top 20 state schools nationally based on GCSE and A-level results."
John Major was famously described by one of his Ministers as having come from "the wrong side of the tracks."
JM was a roadman compared to posh boy Corbyn
Original post by the bear
JM was a roadman compared to posh boy Corbyn
Yup, and his new Director of Strategy went to Winchester.
Don't cha just love the hypocrisy of the bonkers left?
Original post by chocolate hottie
Yup, and his new Director of Strategy went to Winchester.
Don't cha just love the hypocrisy of the bonkers left?
Don't cha just love the hypocrisy of the bonkers left?
it is much more entertaining than the Archers... much more manure in each episode too
Original post by chocolate hottie
I think you very much DO care.
If there is one thing worse than Oxbridge condescension, it is the inverted snobbery of those who hate and despise it.
For reasons that one can guess at, but would be too polite to even allude to.
It is the same with Eton, and of the attacks on Cameron (but not Boris) for having been sent there by his parents. Most of those who foam at the mouth at the very existence of Eton would have loved to have gone there and would give their right arms to send their sons.
Rightly so, it is arguably the best and most famous school in the whole world. And I say this as someone who went to a "bog standard" Comprehensive, myself.
If there is one thing worse than Oxbridge condescension, it is the inverted snobbery of those who hate and despise it.
For reasons that one can guess at, but would be too polite to even allude to.
It is the same with Eton, and of the attacks on Cameron (but not Boris) for having been sent there by his parents. Most of those who foam at the mouth at the very existence of Eton would have loved to have gone there and would give their right arms to send their sons.
Rightly so, it is arguably the best and most famous school in the whole world. And I say this as someone who went to a "bog standard" Comprehensive, myself.
It makes more sense to look at a politician's recent career, accomplishments, and personal qualities rather than effectively making a complete guess as to their suitability based on education. You've discussed Corbyn's record in other posts so I'm not sure why you decided to fixate on the issue of A levels.
Jeremy picked his shadow cabinet based on who he thought would be best at the job, not whether they went to Oxbridge or not. He didn't omit people from Oxford and Cambridge in his selection - he wanted Ed in his shadow cabinet, an Oxford grad, and also has Andy, a Cambridge grad. The OP is beyond snobby, and simply wrong, to assume someone from Oxbridge is going to be best at the job.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Unkempt_One
It makes more sense to look at a politician's recent career, accomplishments, and personal qualities rather than effectively making a complete guess as to their suitability based on education. You've discussed Corbyn's record in other posts so I'm not sure why you decided to fixate on the issue of A levels.
I mentioned A Levels because everyone on TSR is either doing them or has fairly recently. It has meaning for all on this website, it resonates viscerally.
I can see from how you write that you got straight As yourself. Maybe a B in one at worst? Am I right? Now, A Levels are undoubtedly easier than in Corbyn's time, there has been grade inflation, but all the same this information cannot help but frame Corbyn in your mind, even if you aren't willing to admit it. Maybe even to yourself.
And I accept that it isn't sufficient data on its own. But I am interested in history and politics, I read what he has said and listen to his speeches (God help me!) and I think if most people did the same, with an open mind, they would agree.
As for his accomplishments he hasn't any! I was watching the tribute to Denis Healey recently and during the Deputy Leadership Election in the early eighties there was Corbyn, lurking in the background, with Livingstone and Tony. But he was never heard of at the time because he was totally overshadowed by real political heavyweights like Thatcher, Lawson, Jenkins, Foot, Healey and Benn themselves.
(Edit: By Tony I meant Benn not Blair who of course wasn't heard of till a little later).
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by chocolate hottie
I mentioned A Levels because everyone on TSR is either doing them or has fairly recently. It has meaning for all on this website, it resonates viscerally.
I can see from how you write that you got straight As yourself. Maybe a B in one at worst? Am I right? Now, A Levels are undoubtedly easier than in Corbyn's time, there has been grade inflation, but all the same this information cannot help but frame Corbyn in your mind, even if you aren't willing to admit it. Maybe even to yourself.
And I accept that it isn't sufficient data on its own. But I am interested in history and politics, I read what he has said and listen to his speeches (God help me!) and I think if most people did the same, with an open mind, they would agree.
As for his accomplishments he hasn't any! I was watching the tribute to Denis Healey recently and during the Deputy Leadership Election in the early eighties there was Corbyn, lurking in the background, with Livingstone and Tony. But he was never heard of at the time because he was totally overshadowed by real political heavyweights like Thatcher, Lawson, Jenkins, Foot, Healey and Benn themselves.
(Edit: By Tony I meant Benn not Blair who of course wasn't heard of till a little later).
I can see from how you write that you got straight As yourself. Maybe a B in one at worst? Am I right? Now, A Levels are undoubtedly easier than in Corbyn's time, there has been grade inflation, but all the same this information cannot help but frame Corbyn in your mind, even if you aren't willing to admit it. Maybe even to yourself.
And I accept that it isn't sufficient data on its own. But I am interested in history and politics, I read what he has said and listen to his speeches (God help me!) and I think if most people did the same, with an open mind, they would agree.
As for his accomplishments he hasn't any! I was watching the tribute to Denis Healey recently and during the Deputy Leadership Election in the early eighties there was Corbyn, lurking in the background, with Livingstone and Tony. But he was never heard of at the time because he was totally overshadowed by real political heavyweights like Thatcher, Lawson, Jenkins, Foot, Healey and Benn themselves.
(Edit: By Tony I meant Benn not Blair who of course wasn't heard of till a little later).
I just realised the initial exchange we had was about university and I randomly changed the subject. Regardless, on the subject of A levels (you were right about mine, no B's), I have known smart people to flunk A levels for one reason or another, and for Jeremy Corbyn I would guess that to be the case if he was accepted into that school to begin with. That's why I don't put much weight into it. I do put weight into him not having positions I'd consider credible.
Original post by chocolate hottie
We all know that Jezza scraped two E's in his A Levels and could only get into a Poly, but did you know that his support team is almost exclusively red brick, not Oxbridge?
http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/labours-purge-of-oxbridge-intellectuals/
Has Corbyn dumbed down the Labour Party in this (and other) ways?
With all out problems, can Britain really risk electing a leader too stupid to even get into university with a Shadow Cabinet composed of graduates of second tier universities?
http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/10/labours-purge-of-oxbridge-intellectuals/
Has Corbyn dumbed down the Labour Party in this (and other) ways?
With all out problems, can Britain really risk electing a leader too stupid to even get into university with a Shadow Cabinet composed of graduates of second tier universities?
That assumes being at Oxbridge makes you a substantially more wise person.
One could write long papers on the failings of the education system to fully account for actual intelligence and all that, suffice to say idiots are everywhere.
Even in Oxbridge politics courses.
Don't get me wrong I don't think Corbyn is PM material but dunno, your post drips of elitism. and democracy should (ideally) not be just for the graduates of a Cambridge or Oxford humanities department.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Studentus-anonymous
That assumes being at Oxbridge makes you a substantially more wise person.
One could write long papers on the failings of the education system to fully account for actual intelligence and all that, suffice to say idiots are everywhere.
Even in Oxbridge politics courses.
Don't get me wrong I don't think Corbyn is PM material but dunno, your post drips of elitism. and democracy should (ideally) not be just for the graduates of a Cambridge or Oxford humanities department.
One could write long papers on the failings of the education system to fully account for actual intelligence and all that, suffice to say idiots are everywhere.
Even in Oxbridge politics courses.
Don't get me wrong I don't think Corbyn is PM material but dunno, your post drips of elitism. and democracy should (ideally) not be just for the graduates of a Cambridge or Oxford humanities department.
It is the same in the US. Look how many Presidents went to Harvard or Yale.
The brightest and the best are obviously attracted to the elite universities . Why is that a problem?
Original post by chocolate hottie
Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy.
Except it's not guilt by association. It's you being asked a question and your response determines the judgement. If you're going to start talking about fallacies, at least be able to correctly identify them.
Original post by chocolate hottie
The answer to your question is neither. It was a rhetorical exaggeration. 
Ah, so lying. Great.
Original post by chocolate hottie
Why did you say you were interested then? In fact what point WERE you trying to make?
Why did you say you were interested then? In fact what point WERE you trying to make?
Interested from how you would respond. Given it is you that is obsessed about where people got their education and what grades they got when determining somebody's suitability for leadership, it would be interesting to see if you negatively judge Nigel Farage by the same criteria that you judge Jeremy Corbyn
Original post by chocolate hottie
How did you describe students at English Language medical programmes in Europe? Hmm, let me think, it has escaped me? Oh that's right, you called them trash.
How did you describe students at English Language medical programmes in Europe? Hmm, let me think, it has escaped me? Oh that's right, you called them trash.
So if you have responded to my earlier post (rather than running away from it as you usually do when you loose a debate), then you maybe wouldn't be repeating something that has already been refuted.
So let me write it for you again (probably so you can run away, again)
Medical education is a vocation that guarantees you a position as a practising doctor, which from day one meaning having people's lives in your hands. Given the challenging nature of clinical medicine, everyone would be agreed that obtaining such an education should be rigorously gatekept, so as to ensure only the best and most capable candidates have access to it, and thus to caring for the nation's sick. The quality of such education is also highly regulated.
In the UK, access to it is done pretty well, with the process of selection being rigorous as well as meritocratic. The Eastern European medical schools, which offer a medical degree taught through the medium of English, offer no such selection process, instead taking UK candidates that can pay the tuition fees, and expanding places to fit demand (they market them to people in the UK that failed to get their A-Levels). Candidates thus get into medical education with Cs, Ds, or even Es at A Level, and importantly, then have the right to gain employment in the UK when finished. This is before we look at the fact that these institutions do not prepare their UK graduates for clinical medicine, since as students they were unable to communicate with patients (an absolute necessity of training to be a doctor).
A degree from Oxbridge doesn't guarantee you anything, and the path into government is diverse (there are no prerequisite qualifications or education). A medical degree guarantees you a job as a doctor, and the path into medicine is only via a medical degree. That is why elitism is appropriate in certain situations.
Original post by chocolate hottie
You only have to listen to Corbyn for five minutes to realise he is stupid and that he got two E's because of that stupidity.
Care give examples?
Original post by chocolate hottie
Ad hominem.
Ad hominem.
It's not an ad hominem. Re-read what I wrote, and you will see you are being asked a question based on you persistently raising the fact Corbyn got 2 Es and linking this with his alleged stupidity, in spite of it being possible that Nigel Farage got 2 Es. So are you biased or just dim-witted?
Original post by chocolate hottie
So you admit you were guilty of the Association Fallacy then?
So you admit you were guilty of the Association Fallacy then?
How is that association fallacy. Kindly lay out the case, so we can all see that it is not, and it is you (again) levelling spurious charges against people, which seems to be the only thing you can do.
Original post by chocolate hottie
Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy.
Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy.
No, it's pointing out the fact that throughout this post you have absolutely failed to defend your early posts in the thread, jumping between contradictory positions, and making a complete fool of yourself. This judgement is based purely on your posts. That fact you are also a UKIP supporter does not imply your guilt, your posts do that.
You really don't understand these terms that you use here. It's really quite amusing.
Original post by chocolate hottie
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day...
Elsewhere in this thread you said that you wanted a "fair fight."
Elsewhere in this thread you said that you wanted a "fair fight."
Yes. I criticise Corbyn because of his ludicrous policies (printing money to finance public expenditure, nationalisation of industries, fixation of inequality of outcome, euro-scepticism). I don't criticise him because of the way he talks, his A Level results, or the universities his shadow cabinet did or didn't go to.
In the same way I criticise Farage because of his ludicrous policies (withdrawal from the European Union, anti-immigration, and the fact that UKIP is confused as to whether it is libertarian, social conservative/traditionalist, trade protectionist or just populist nationalist). I don't criticise him because of the faces he makes when he talks or his lack of university degree.
Original post by chocolate hottie
Anyone who wants a fair fight to be had with a politician who by his own admission would be extremely damaging to the country is a naive fool.
No, I want politics to be about issues and values, not personalities and mannerisms. In fact this fixation of the personalities and mannerisms (which mud-slingers like yourself constantly stoop to) is highly damaging to the functioning of the political systems, since it drowns out the discussion of real issues that matter to the country, as well as turn people off politics entirely.
Wanting to see a fair fight is merely about having a logical, issues based and fair discussion, and giving each candidate the platform to be judged on the merits of their issues and values. This isn't naive, it's just grown up.
Original post by chocolate hottie
There may have been a few mistakes (annoying the Saudi government, one of our biggest export markets in the whole world showed real statesmanship!)
Is this another one of your now infamous lies?
Saudi Arabia (KSA) doesn't feature in our top 15 export markets based on annualised trade http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/2451
KSA very occasionally jumps up the rankings in monthly trade, purely because our main export to KSA is arms, which come in high value one off shipments.
And it seems strange that you are such a champion of KSA, given it's funding of radicalisation and terrorism in the UK. Especially in the context of Jeremy Corbyn raising the very legitimate case of the impeding execution by beheading and crucifixion of national Ali Mohammed al-Nimr for merely promoting democracy in KSA. But I guess this just typifies what is very common amongst UKIP supporters; complete confusion about what they believe. I imagine you would be squealing about Jeremy Corbyn's appeasement to Saudi Arabia if he didn't raise the case of Ali Mohammed al-Nimr. That's the thing with mud-slingers; you can never please them
Original post by chocolate hottie
It would seem sadly not. You Gov have done an opinion survey on his first month in charge. (Can't find it online yet, but will link when it finally appears)
Starting with the worst approval rating of any new opposition leader at minus 8 he has slumped to minus 20 in his first four weeks..
30% of voters think he is doing well at his job, 50% think he is doing badly. Normally they call these early days a "honeymoon period." In Jezza's case the people are asking for a divorce before he has even packed away the wedding night lingerie...
It would seem sadly not. You Gov have done an opinion survey on his first month in charge. (Can't find it online yet, but will link when it finally appears)
Starting with the worst approval rating of any new opposition leader at minus 8 he has slumped to minus 20 in his first four weeks..
30% of voters think he is doing well at his job, 50% think he is doing badly. Normally they call these early days a "honeymoon period." In Jezza's case the people are asking for a divorce before he has even packed away the wedding night lingerie...
If this is true, then great.
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