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OK yeah, I admit I was in the wrong I'm just in a strange mood right now

Plus the several threads in which this is being debated are confusing me as to exactly who's voicing which opinions...

oh geez

this whole thread is completely unnecessary Not even I would say **** like this.

No honestly, I did not make the thread. My comment was taken from another thread and made in to a thread of its own by a MOD, causing this to blow up in to a crisis.

I agree, I did not want to create a thread out of this, but as I said - MODS.

I totally agree with you. My old best friend found SEXUAL ACTIVITY so uncomfortable and that's fine? Like, what the hell, who am I to tell you how to feel but it's just *******s when you're like, "Oh yeah sexual activity... ew... oh wait, only when it's this group of people tbh." Lol, shut up.

No, I agree, it shouldn't be optional. I truly understood his original points, from people finding it offensive and it's distasteful, I disagreed. We reached a agree to disagree conclusion.

What I can't find peace with is lesbians are okay but gay men are not. That's not okay. That isn't fair. All or none imo(preferably all).

BUT

look none of us are getting anywhere and we all feel insulted personally one way or another, I don't think there is any point in continuing this on for pages and pages and pages.

I think we need some agree to disagree thing right about now.

Sometimes it's not exactly the arguement that is effective but the after thought process.

I'm just going to leave that thought there for you guys to think about

He asked for it.

I'm sick to death of all the knuckle heads on here who think they can be so condescending about matters that do not concern them.

I don't think there is any point in continuing this on for pages and pages and pages.

I don't care if people disrespect my opinion.

Ah good, you've mentioned laws from the past which were unjust to somehow make a point about the state being crappy on morality. The problem with that is the glaring notion that we have PROGRESSED through the years and are now much more for equality and acceptance than we used to be, at least under the eyes of the law. So things have gotten better, not worse.

You've really gone for the philosophical stance on all of this being relative and nothing being concrete. While I appreciate that move (having graduated with a philosophy degree) it seems you're just asking questions with no substance and not providing your own opinion. When you have, you've said that you do not respect racism and homophobia. I said persecution of those communities is unjust. That statement is a logical extension of finding homophobia and racism deplorable, which means you should agree with me if you have no time for discrimination. However, it seems with the regards to the point in bold, that you don't seem so sure. Indeed, you've contradicted yourself because you were surely against racism and homophobia, and now me labeling it as unjust has got you to question what justice is, instead of agreeing with me and thus reinforcing your previous position.

I totally agree with you. My old best friend found SEXUAL ACTIVITY so uncomfortable and that's fine? Like, what the hell, who am I to tell you how to feel but it's just *******s when you're like, "Oh yeah sexual activity... ew... oh wait, only when it's this group of people tbh." Lol, shut up.

Given that we live in a society wherein heterosexuality is still considered to be the default, "normal" sexual orientation, it's no surprise that some people may feel
uncomfortable, or even disgusted at the sight of what they consider "abnormal" - in this case, males kissing other males. But I definitely agree that these people ought to keep such thoughts and opinions to themselves, especially when voicing them may perpetuate homophobia and persecution of homosexuals on a wider scale.

It's irrelevant if it has gotten better or worse. My point being that what is right and wrong is not dependent on state. Who can tell if 270 years from now, we have a 360 degrees turn and outlaw black people going to university and having rights, with the government reinforcing it because it will be just and the right thing to do?
It's because social norms change that we can never say what is truly right and what is truly wrong. We all have our own take on it, having popular definitions but never having a whole population agree on it wholly.

I think we have differing opinions on what counts as homophobia and racism therefore I cannot I agree with you completely [on homophobia/racism being unjust]. This extends to justice in regards of what it is, with your view on it not being absolute.I do not doubt myself on this.

Agree with you completely. I'm going to watch Maurice now anyway

F.Nietzsche --->

It's completely relevant, and entirely my point with regards to TRENDS. The trend, for decades, has been a progression toward a society of equal opportunity and one which does NOT discriminate based on race, sex, sexuality etc. This has of course shown in our laws, and it would be unlikely that a 180 (which is what you meant, at least from the point of today) would occur precisely because there is no logical reason for discriminating against someone based on something they cannot control. We've understood this as a people, hence why we've moved away from it. We've matured. I can tell you know this, but you'll still make the 'what if' point anyway. As an aside, I never argued for the state being a perfect manifestation of what is just, I just said the progression towards not discriminating against people and accepting minority groups has come about over time, and this has been reflected in our laws. Do you agree that we're in a better place than we were hundreds of years ago? Please tell me you do.

What do you count as homophobia and racism? Surely it's not purely restricted to an utterance like 'I hate black people' or 'I hate gays'? I mean one could say gay people would not make good parents, or that black people steal, while still saying 'I don't hate them'. That wouldn't negate the inherent prejudice in their statements though.

You talk as if you think society has never been civil up until this point in time. What has changed has been the fact that minorities have been liberated from their position as minorities. And I think in terms of equal opportunity, we have improved.
And my 270 years from now example was an example, not a what if. I was merely showing that at any given point in time, an opinion held by a majority is considered the right opinion.

There is more than one dimension of a person. I cannot write down what counts as homophobia/racism and what doesn't because of the endless scenarios.
I agree that verbal and physical harassment directed at a person because of race/sexuality which is the crime. I end it there.
A stand alone comment of "gay people make bad parents" and "black people steal" is not accountable. There are gay people who make bad parents. There are black people who steal. But so does heterosexual parents. And so do white people. Is it because the comment was made about a minority, that it's discrimination?


[you seem to hate my question marks but I refuse to make them statements as my opinions are not objective]

Well society has been somewhat civil I guess but one needs a comparison in order to make sense of civility. It's a relative term and cannot be understood if one takes into account a stand alone society frozen in time and unchanging. But you say we have improved, so you agree with me that society has become more civil. That was my point.
It was a 'what if'. You said, what if 270 years from now we do a 180 and black people have less rights. I'm paraphrasing but something like that. Of course it's a 'what if' because that hasn't happened and you're talking about a very unlikely future just to make a point about changing ideas. I understood the point but the 'example' was weak.

How do you not understand the prejudice in those statements? It's a generalisation of minority communities and acting as if they all do x. When you hear 'gay people wouldn't make good parents' people mean most or all gay people. You've never heard 'straight people don't make good parents' because next to no one has ever said that. Somehow you're acting in your question that any comment made toward a minority is discrimination. No. You know full well those comments aren't driving at that. Such comments are bigoted because they generalise and act as though those negative qualities are facets only held by minority communities and are widespread in minority communities. For example, a white racist would not say all white people steal, though he may say some do. He sees white people as individuals. The same cannot be said of the way he sees black people. They are a monolith to him, and because their skin is black, he sees them as more likely to commit crime and steal from him. THAT is bigoted.

It was an example not a question. Maybe I should have worded it better but I was provoking thought not expecting an answer.

I meant what I meant. Your example felt too vague to be offensive [or I just don't get offended easily] If you had say "ALL black men steal"-that's racist.
Nowadays everything is generalised which is why we have stereotypes.We don't help ourselves when we use labels for everything.