vegan, vegetarian, omnivore?

Are you actually kidding me? "an 18% increase doesn't amount to much" Mate that is almost 1/5th of an increase. That is a ****ing lot.

Your estimations are pretty far off.

Using conventional methods (ie not organic)
To raise 100 cattle for need about 60 ha on grazing alone.
On 60 ha of grade 3 pasture land you will average about 8 tonnes/ha of wheat.
So 480 tonnes of wheat which would be about 480 tonnes of flour.
In a large loaf of bread there is roughly 500g a wheat.
So you could make about 960,000 loaves of bread for the space that 100 cattle take up.

Off 100 cattle with a killing out percentage of about 70% you would get about 560,000kg of meat.

These calculations are all rough estimates.

eating meat is definitely bad for animals. no animal wants to be raised in conditions that range from ok to awful for a short time before they're driven to a slaughterhouse to meet their violent end. tremendous abuse happens within the animal agriculture industry, unimaginable suffering taking place every moment because humans like cheap, convenient meat. slaughterhouses are hell on earth and it is not ok for an animal to be murdered there. it's sickening and if one were to take a clear, rational perspective of what's really going on, they would not buy supermarket meat anymore. the clearest and most rational would not eat meat unless absolutely necessary.

eating meat is definitely bad for the environment. some facts:

- Animal agriculture is responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation. Transportation exhaust is responsible for 13% of all greenhouse gas emissions.
- Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,000 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year, or 51% of all worldwide greenhouse gas emissions.
- Methane is 25-100 times more destructive than CO2 on a 20 year time frame.
- Livestock is responsible for 65% of all human-related emissions of nitrous oxide – a greenhouse gas with 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide, and which stays in the atmosphere for 150 years.
- Emissions for agriculture projected to increase 80% by 2050.
- Energy related emissions expected to increase 20% by 2040.
- US Methane emissions from livestock and natural gas are nearly equal.
- Cows produce 150 billion gallons of methane per day.
- Converting to wind and solar power will take 20+ years and roughly 43 trillion dollars.
- Even without fossil fuels, we will exceed our 565 gigatonnes CO2e limit by 2030, all from raising animals.
- Reducing methane emissions would create tangible benefits almost immediately.
- Fracking (hydraulic fracturing) water use ranges from 70-140 billion gallons annually.
- Animal agriculture water consumption ranges from 34-76 trillion gallons annually.
- Agriculture is responsible for 80-90% of US water consumption.
- Growing feed crops for livestock consumes 56% of water in the US.
- Californians use 1500 gallons of water per person per day. Close to Half is associated with meat and dairy products.
- 2,500 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 pound of beef.
- 477 gallons of water are required to produce 1lb. of eggs; almost 900 gallons of water are needed for 1lb. of cheese.
- 1,000 gallons of water are required to produce 1 gallon of milk.
- 5% of water consumed in the US is by private homes. 55% of water consumed in the US is for animal agriculture.
- Animal Agriculture is responsible for 20%-33% of all fresh water consumption in the world today.
- Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land.
- Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land.
- Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction.
- Livestock operations on land have created more than 500 nitrogen flooded deadzones around the world in our oceans.
- Largest mass extinction in 65 million years.
- 2-5 acres of land are used per cow.
- Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to animal agriculture.
- 1/3 of the planet is desertified, with livestock as the leading driver.
- Every minute, 7 million pounds of excrement are produced by animals raised for food in the US.
- A farm with 2,500 dairy cows produces the same amount of waste as a city of 411,000 people.
- 130 times more animal waste than human waste is produced in the US – 1.4 billion tons from the meat industry annually. 5 tons of animal waste is produced per person in the US.
- In the U.S. livestock produce 116,000 lbs of waste per second
- Animals produce Enough waste to cover SF, NYC, Tokyo, etc,

keep reading here: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

i don't think anyone would argue that raising cows for meat is a sustainable use of land
like yeah, no one

It isn't unsustainable, it is inefficient. Know the difference.

ok that's true you got me there, reps you

you can raise cows sustainably but it's not happening at present in almost every situation. we need to move towards localised organic farming immediately and then eventually look at replacing meat with laboratory grown tissue until the masses embrace veganism. it cannot get worse than it is now unless we want to destroy ourselves and the planet, and i guarantee that almost all meat bought at the supermarket - which is where almost everyone gets their meat - is unsustainably produced.

eating meat is definitely bad for animals. no animal wants to be raised in conditions that range from ok to awful for a short time before they're driven to a slaughterhouse to meet their violent end. tremendous abuse happens within the animal agriculture industry, unimaginable suffering taking place every moment because humans like cheap, convenient meat. slaughterhouses are hell on earth and it is not ok for an animal to be murdered there. it's sickening and if one were to take a clear, rational perspective of what's really going on, they would not buy supermarket meat anymore. the clearest and most rational would not eat meat unless absolutely necessary.

eating meat is definitely bad for the environment. some facts:

- Animal agriculture is responsible for 18% of greenhouse gas emissions, more than the combined exhaust from all transportation. Transportation exhaust is responsible for 13% of all greenhouse gas emissions.
- Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,000 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year, or 51% of all worldwide greenhouse gas emissions.
- Methane is 25-100 times more destructive than CO2 on a 20 year time frame.
- Livestock is responsible for 65% of all human-related emissions of nitrous oxide – a greenhouse gas with 296 times the global warming potential of carbon dioxide, and which stays in the atmosphere for 150 years.
- Emissions for agriculture projected to increase 80% by 2050.
- Energy related emissions expected to increase 20% by 2040.
- US Methane emissions from livestock and natural gas are nearly equal.
- Cows produce 150 billion gallons of methane per day.
- Converting to wind and solar power will take 20+ years and roughly 43 trillion dollars.
- Even without fossil fuels, we will exceed our 565 gigatonnes CO2e limit by 2030, all from raising animals.
- Reducing methane emissions would create tangible benefits almost immediately.
- Fracking (hydraulic fracturing) water use ranges from 70-140 billion gallons annually.
- Animal agriculture water consumption ranges from 34-76 trillion gallons annually.
- Agriculture is responsible for 80-90% of US water consumption.
- Growing feed crops for livestock consumes 56% of water in the US.
- Californians use 1500 gallons of water per person per day. Close to Half is associated with meat and dairy products.
- 2,500 gallons of water are needed to produce 1 pound of beef.
- 477 gallons of water are required to produce 1lb. of eggs; almost 900 gallons of water are needed for 1lb. of cheese.
- 1,000 gallons of water are required to produce 1 gallon of milk.
- 5% of water consumed in the US is by private homes. 55% of water consumed in the US is for animal agriculture.
- Animal Agriculture is responsible for 20%-33% of all fresh water consumption in the world today.
- Livestock or livestock feed occupies 1/3 of the earth’s ice-free land.
- Livestock covers 45% of the earth’s total land.
- Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction.
- Livestock operations on land have created more than 500 nitrogen flooded deadzones around the world in our oceans.
- Largest mass extinction in 65 million years.
- 2-5 acres of land are used per cow.
- Nearly half of the contiguous US is devoted to animal agriculture.
- 1/3 of the planet is desertified, with livestock as the leading driver.
- Every minute, 7 million pounds of excrement are produced by animals raised for food in the US.
- A farm with 2,500 dairy cows produces the same amount of waste as a city of 411,000 people.
- 130 times more animal waste than human waste is produced in the US – 1.4 billion tons from the meat industry annually. 5 tons of animal waste is produced per person in the US.
- In the U.S. livestock produce 116,000 lbs of waste per second
- Animals produce Enough waste to cover SF, NYC, Tokyo, etc,

keep reading here: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

If you want to feed everyone it cannot be done with organic systems, especially if everyone is vegan. The main fertiliser for organic systems is manure and without livestock there is no manure.

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I guess you're fine with hunting then?

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human waste can be used as fertiliser. i live on a farm and my dad's farmer and though he doesn't farm organically he has a few friends who do. one or two use human waste. the problem with human waste is that our diet is generally worse than animals' diets. in developing countries they have to use their poop else they can't grow anything. so ideally we'll move towards organic farming, remove the human waste taboo in agriculture and stop producing meat eventually.

it depends. i'm not ok with rich people going hunting for sport. anyone living in england doesn't need to go hunting unless they're cut off from civilisation, and that's extremely rare since we've become so industrialised. however, in poor regions of the world where their only option is to hunt, i'll have to be ok with it. there are alternatives such as foraging but it would probably be difficult to get all the nutrition required from an exclusively vegan diet in that part of the world. it depends on the tribe or community and their ancestral makeup.

You do realise that you cannot use sewage on organic land. It is against the rules of organic certification across the EU.

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But what happens if you get your way and animal agriculture is largely reduced? Meat will not be easily bought. Would you be against people in England going out a hunting rabbits, ducks and deer?

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