The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap

The fact you've made a little numbered list and dismissed my argument as "invalid" unfortunately doesn't change the fact that your response is empty. The burqa and bikini are argued as being oppressive because they supposedly are imposed on women by men. The burqa is an imposition on Muslim women, imposed on them by patriarchal traditions that go back thousands of years. Wearing a burqa is not practical, comfortable, and only exists to appease men. Therefore it is oppressive. Even if they choose to wear it, it is still something worn that indicates submission to a patriachal demand. On the other hand, I have proven that without men, women would still be wearing the bikini in certain situations, or even less, so the bikini is not imposed on women, and it is therefore not oppressive.

There's so much wrong in this post that I'm not even gonna bother replying.

Good Night.

That's as close to an acceptance of defeat that one can possibly hope for in an argument on the internet.

Good job, OP.

Can't everyone just wear whatever they want . If someone doesn't feel oppressed even if you think they are being oppressed and just don't know it, I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done

So let's talk about the apocryphal Little Timmy. He has never seen sunlight, because his parents keep him locked in the basement. He's been treated that way all his life, so he doesn't know any better.

But heh, he doesn't know he's oppressed so what's the big deal!

I don't understand why you keep making references to sexual selection.

In this little scenario that you had posted earlier, there are no men so therefore, no sex is involved yet you still maintain that women will still scrutinize and criticize each other's appearance, attire and well-being.

I agree entirely, although I am too liberal to want it banned. I don't hang around in highly Muslim locales but it doesn't seem like the thing is very prevalent: I've seen it once or twice at most. There are no figures for it but the Guardian suggests a number in the thousands. If the burqa is just a confected anti-Islamic bogeyman which has very little relevance in the real world I see less need for banning it.

A. Bikini is something I'd wear when I'm really warm, swimming, sunbathing. It's a piece of clothing. Nothing more nothing less. A burqa is something a woman would wear as part of her religion. Nothing more, nothing less. People should stop overthinking so much

This thread stinks of ignorance.
So the only way to not be oppressed is to go out decorate yourself infront of men to recieve attention?

And here is the sad part you seem to be deluded in thinking that the women are forced to wear a burkah?. Sure theyre raised to dress modestly but by no stretch of definiton can that be misinterpeted as forced, what evidence do you have to claim that majority of muslims are forced to wear a burkah.
... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done

Youve proven nothing, especially since youve used hypothetical arguments. It is infact your argument that is empty.

Fallacy no.1: You're implying that I need evidence to prove this is true. Clearly this isn't the case, evidence is hardly even relevant. It's like saying you need evidence to show that 1 + 1 = 2. You don't, you can argue with critical thinking, as I have done.

Fallacy no.2: The idea that I need statistics to back this up is reliant on the idea that someone must know they are oppressed before they can be considered to be. This is clearly not the case. Examples: the captives in the Plato's cave, or a child who is kept locked in the basement by his parents. I don't need their opinions of whether they are oppressed or not to tell me if they are oppressed. They may not know they are oppressed and refute any claims that they are, but regardless of this their situation is simply compliant with the definition of oppression. A child being locked in the basement by the parents is by definition being oppressed by the parents. Therefore I don't need evidence to prove that they are oppressed, I can prove it with critical thinking.

No I don't maintain that. I'm saying that women wouldn't have a hand in the sexual selection competition if they were not around men, but I'm also saying it's also not an imposition for them to play in it, it is natural and it's an integral part of being human. Without men, women wouldn't also be able to have children, but that doesn't mean that having children is an imposition on women. This is because neither having children nor competing in the sexual selection process have been invented; they're written into our DNA. On the other hand, the burqa is an imposition; it an invention that has been imposed on womankind by a patriarchal culture. Without said patriarchal culture women would never have invented it and chosen to wear it. It is unnatural and stifles the dance with sexuality we all play in the game of men and women, and which is a very important part of ourselves.

And islamic upbringing figuratively severs the limbs of critical thinking.

"We are pure, they are filth."



"We are pure, they are filth."

I don't know why you constantly go on about sexual selection when my point had nothing to do with that. In fact, we took sex out of the game when you took men out of the equation.

So, if women will still scrutinize and criticize other women for their appearance, attire and general well-being, does the Burqa not offer a semblance of anonymity from that?

Does the Burqa not make it seem like women do not have to condition and conform their bodies to a standard so not only will they be accepted by men, but their gender comrades as well?


I happen to have read somewhere that talking ill of others, in Islam, is either frowned upon or is a sin so does the Burqa not help women, who choose to wear it, fulfill their religious obligations but not even being able to discuss such aspects, which you have confirmed will still be present, in a society that has absolutely no men?



*I'm playing devil's advocate here because I think you portray a very poor understanding, as well as a biased and blinded view towards Islam, and Muslims in general.

The bikini wearer has a choice. She can wear what she wants too. She can even wear a burka if she wants. But she wouldn't want to do that anyway would she because in Western culture, covering one's face in public is deemed macabre and nonsensical. The burka is disrespectful to all women who are fighting and sacrificing for Women's Rights. It is also disrespectful to all those women who have fought and sacrificed for Women's Rights in the past. The burka belongs to a fundamentalist, religio-political ideology, whose proponents are brought up to believe the family's honour rests in the daughters' virginity before they are married off. That is the psychology underpinning the hiding of the female body from view, where the burka is concerned. In the West there is equality. In Western culture men don't blame the woman and accuse her of being a slut who deserves it when they get raped. In Arabic countries and Muslim parts of North Africa, If the women does not dress according to what the Sharia dictates is proper, then she is fair game. That is basic Sharia. It disgusts me that the burka is deemed acceptable in such a civilised advanced country as Britain. The burka is a symbol of distain and intolerance for the tolerant freedom loving spirit of the West. If one thinks that for a women to dress modestly, she has to hide her whole body, then what is that saying about a women's body? It's sexualising it and placing an unfair psychological burden on the woman's shoulder. But then Islam is all about sex, when the man can have it, how and when he can have it. It's all very sad really. And the women who have bought into believing that the burka is a good thing, are the victims of their misogynistic belief system. I don't dislike Muslims. I feel sorry for female Muslims much more than the men.

False equivilancy. Womens' decision to wear weather-appropiate clothing is independant to the existence of men.

Do women ever wear bikinis in the Arctic circle or in the snow? A burkha isn't what a non-muslim would wear because it's cold. They'd wear a big coat.