What's a fair price for uni tuition fees?
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Original post by Jammy Duel
Having done some rough calculations a bit back, the rates seem roughly set to at least break even in the long run
Well, one would hope so. Paying $9k a year is $27k for a degree. If you finish work at 65 and start when you graduate at 21 you have 44 years to recover your investment - that's $610/year. If your degree cannot earn you that much I have to wonder about it's quality and usefulness.
Original post by Jammy Duel
Germany also doesn't let anybody who wants to go to uni to keep unemployment stats down.
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Exactly. I think in Germany, if you attend university, you have earned your place there. The UK seems to simply dumb down and create ever more useless courses of study to accommodate just about anybody who can breath without a ventilator.
Original post by Reue
Everyone can afford it, you get loans which cover the costs.
Oh great even more loans to pay off
Original post by rhiannonm25
Oh great even more loans to pay off
Why should anyone else pay for something which primarily only benefits yourself?
Original post by Howard
Well, one would hope so. Paying $9k a year is $27k for a degree. If you finish work at 65 and start when you graduate at 21 you have 44 years to recover your investment - that's $610/year. If your degree cannot earn you that much I have to wonder about it's quality and usefulness.
Plus £8500 per year for living costs. That takes it up to £1200 a year roughly speaking. For some people who choose to go into careers that may not earn that much such as family support work or in SureStart services, they may not make back their investment.
You don't go into those careers for the money though. You do it for the benefit of others. You do it to help people who may face extraordinary difficulties to live their life to the full. The rewards that brings is far greater and more valuable than any amount of money.
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Original post by Katty3
Plus £8500 per year for living costs. That takes it up to £1200 a year roughly speaking. For some people who choose to go into careers that may not earn that much such as family support work or in SureStart services, they may not make back their investment.
You don't go into those careers for the money though. You do it for the benefit of others. You do it to help people who may face extraordinary difficulties to live their life to the full. The rewards that brings is far greater and more valuable than any amount of money.
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You don't go into those careers for the money though. You do it for the benefit of others. You do it to help people who may face extraordinary difficulties to live their life to the full. The rewards that brings is far greater and more valuable than any amount of money.
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And those who don't pay much because of those paths are balanced by the ones who pay their loans off with net 100pc+ of interest
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Original post by Katty3
Plus £8500 per year for living costs. That takes it up to £1200 a year roughly speaking. For some people who choose to go into careers that may not earn that much such as family support work or in SureStart services, they may not make back their investment.
You don't go into those careers for the money though. You do it for the benefit of others. You do it to help people who may face extraordinary difficulties to live their life to the full. The rewards that brings is far greater and more valuable than any amount of money.
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You don't go into those careers for the money though. You do it for the benefit of others. You do it to help people who may face extraordinary difficulties to live their life to the full. The rewards that brings is far greater and more valuable than any amount of money.
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Fair enough; it's not all about money I agree. The world needs people that put themselves out there for very little reward to make life a bit better for others. (Not just greedy bastards like me)
Original post by shooks
You're now in charge of the UK's university funding policy. Congratulations!
Your first decision is to set the ceiling for university tuition fees. So what's the new limit?
Your first decision is to set the ceiling for university tuition fees. So what's the new limit?
I think an average of 12-16000 year for social sciences (much less for economics, PPE).
Loans should also be very restricted, applying more progressively (so the lower middle class gets something based on their income, but not so much that the middle and upper middle class feels relatively disadvantaged).
University should return to being an institution for the elite. The huge waste of resources invested into educating people, at the dawn of the second machine age, when the majority of those educated will find their degrees worthless, is, in my view, not wise.
Loans should also be very restricted, applying more progressively (so the lower middle class gets something based on their income, but not so much that the middle and upper middle class feels relatively disadvantaged).
University should return to being an institution for the elite. The huge waste of resources invested into educating people, at the dawn of the second machine age, when the majority of those educated will find their degrees worthless, is, in my view, not wise.
Should be grants not fees, people who are good enough and want to go to University, should have the right to go to University.
Original post by Rock Fan
Should be grants not fees, people who are good enough and want to go to University, should have the right to go to University.
Paid for by cutting or taxing what?
University should be free, or at least considerably cheaper (no more than £1000 a year). I don't understand why Germany can do it and we can't?
Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this country who support fees because they (mistakenly) perceive students as wasteful freeloaders.
Yeah, that worked so well in America where fees have risen year on year, and quality has fallen!
Taxes are used to pay for all kind of services that don't benefit everyone. Why should HE be any different?
Not everyone has access to loans. People who already have degrees can't get a loan to do a second degree, even if they paid for their first degree themselves. Fees limit lifelong learning and make it almost impossible to retrain.
No fees would not mean less funding for universities, the funding would come directly from government.
Can you give me an example of that happening in Germany when they abolished fees?
The UK is already worse than the US. American public universities cost less than British public universities. A Californian resident would only pay $13,432 to go to Berkeley, for example.
Every state has abolished fees in Germany, actually.
It has nothing to do with tax, Germany's tax system is pretty comparable to our own (in fact we pay slightly more, on average). Part of the reason they can afford free higher education is because the culture is different. They don't have very small classes / lectures. There is no expectation that universities provide accommodation, most people live at home or rent. Universities are not expected to provide fashionable cafes and entertainment venues for their students. Doing a degree in Germany is treated more like a job than an experience.
If we abolished fees and at the same time improved pathways to proper vocational and technical jobs then student numbers would come down.
Stop with the assumptions, please. University entry requirements are higher in the UK than in Germany (and the rest of Europe, for that matter).
That argument can be made about every single tax-funded service / job. Why should the tax payer fund the arts when most people don’t benefit from them? Why should the tax payer subsidise a woman's choice to have children (maternity leave, childcare etc)? Seriously, I keep asking people this and I never get an answer. Come on, tell me?
Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this country who support fees because they (mistakenly) perceive students as wasteful freeloaders.
Original post by Howard
I don't think I'd be interested in establishing a ceiling. I'd allow market forces to set the fees - supply and demand.
Yeah, that worked so well in America where fees have risen year on year, and quality has fallen!
Original post by epic within
Why should the tax payer pay for someones degree, especially one that doesn't benefit our country
Original post by Reue
There shouldn't be any tax payer subsidiary for as long as places continue to be filled.
Taxes are used to pay for all kind of services that don't benefit everyone. Why should HE be any different?
Original post by Reue
Everyone can afford it, you get loans which cover the costs.
Not everyone has access to loans. People who already have degrees can't get a loan to do a second degree, even if they paid for their first degree themselves. Fees limit lifelong learning and make it almost impossible to retrain.
Original post by Spoderman14
Lower tuition fees =:
- Less funding for universities --> lower quality of pretty much everything
- Less funding for universities --> lower quality of pretty much everything
No fees would not mean less funding for universities, the funding would come directly from government.
- Less competitive --> anyone can get a degree if they're not as good because universities will be desperate to take anyone that'll pay
- Courses are more crowded because they need more people to get the same amount of funding.
- Courses are more crowded because they need more people to get the same amount of funding.
Can you give me an example of that happening in Germany when they abolished fees?
Original post by keromedic
Whatever it costs really. Doesn't make a difference to me if it is how it is now or more similar to the nordic countries or Germany as long as we don't adopt the American system of tuition fees and funding.
The UK is already worse than the US. American public universities cost less than British public universities. A Californian resident would only pay $13,432 to go to Berkeley, for example.
Original post by Howard
I think most of the German states provide free university education, but not all - it's not a universally applied Federal system.
I think France, Sweden, Denmark and a few other countries provide free or close to free university education. The problem is that in all these countries the role of the state generally is much larger than the UK's and their tax regime reflects that. So I guess it comes down to your personal position politically.
Also worth noting that Germany has 2.4 million (2.97/100) students whereas the UK has 2.6 million (4.05/100) so the UK has 36.36% more in real terms.
Therefore, if the UK want's to provide free university education it should start by being prepared to shrink its university behemoth by 36.36% (to be on par with Germany) and be prepared to raise taxes.
I think France, Sweden, Denmark and a few other countries provide free or close to free university education. The problem is that in all these countries the role of the state generally is much larger than the UK's and their tax regime reflects that. So I guess it comes down to your personal position politically.
Also worth noting that Germany has 2.4 million (2.97/100) students whereas the UK has 2.6 million (4.05/100) so the UK has 36.36% more in real terms.
Therefore, if the UK want's to provide free university education it should start by being prepared to shrink its university behemoth by 36.36% (to be on par with Germany) and be prepared to raise taxes.
Every state has abolished fees in Germany, actually.
It has nothing to do with tax, Germany's tax system is pretty comparable to our own (in fact we pay slightly more, on average). Part of the reason they can afford free higher education is because the culture is different. They don't have very small classes / lectures. There is no expectation that universities provide accommodation, most people live at home or rent. Universities are not expected to provide fashionable cafes and entertainment venues for their students. Doing a degree in Germany is treated more like a job than an experience.
If we abolished fees and at the same time improved pathways to proper vocational and technical jobs then student numbers would come down.
Original post by Howard
Exactly. I think in Germany, if you attend university, you have earned your place there. The UK seems to simply dumb down and create ever more useless courses of study to accommodate just about anybody who can breath without a ventilator.
Stop with the assumptions, please. University entry requirements are higher in the UK than in Germany (and the rest of Europe, for that matter).
Original post by Reue
Why should anyone else pay for something which primarily only benefits yourself?
That argument can be made about every single tax-funded service / job. Why should the tax payer fund the arts when most people don’t benefit from them? Why should the tax payer subsidise a woman's choice to have children (maternity leave, childcare etc)? Seriously, I keep asking people this and I never get an answer. Come on, tell me?
Original post by Snufkin
Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this country who support fees because they (mistakenly) perceive students as wasteful freeloaders.
Yeah, that worked so well in America where fees have risen year on year, and quality has fallen!/QUOTE]
Costs have gone up. True. But an in-state student can still attend a university for $6 or $7k a year. If they are savvy they can do the first two years at a community college to get their AA for even less. The numbers only start to go up if you want to study at a private university or out of state. My daughter is at the University of Central Florida so I know what it costs. It's not exactly Yale but with her scholarships it's costing me a bit under $5k a year plus books.
By comparison, I went to university in the UK and it cost ZERO. It now apparently costs 9k ($14kUS'ish) a year so I think the UK has a bigger problem in terms of fee increases than the US.
As for quality? Well, look at a list of the top 20 universities in the world - eight out of the top ten are still American. The real quality problems that US universities have in quality terms are are in their graduate programs - particularly in JD programs.
Original post by Howard
Costs have gone up. True. But an in-state student can still attend a university for $6 or $7k a year. If they are savvy they can do the first two years at a community college to get their AA for even less. The numbers only start to go up if you want to study at a private university or out of state. My daughter is at the University of Central Florida so I know what it costs. It's not exactly Yale but with her scholarships it's costing me a bit under $5k a year plus books.
By comparison, I went to university in the UK and it cost ZERO. It now apparently costs 9k ($14kUS'ish) a year so I think the UK has a bigger problem in terms of fee increases than the US.
As for quality? Well, look at a list of the top 20 universities in the world - eight out of the top ten are still American. The real quality problems that US universities have in quality terms are are in their graduate programs - particularly in JD programs.
By comparison, I went to university in the UK and it cost ZERO. It now apparently costs 9k ($14kUS'ish) a year so I think the UK has a bigger problem in terms of fee increases than the US.
As for quality? Well, look at a list of the top 20 universities in the world - eight out of the top ten are still American. The real quality problems that US universities have in quality terms are are in their graduate programs - particularly in JD programs.
Yes, I know about in-station tuition at public universities. My point was that out-of-state and private college tuition costs have soared, so clearly the market doesn't work. I realise that America has a lot of high ranked universities, but quality in community colleges and 'normal' universities is nowhere near as high.
Original post by Snufkin
Yes, I know about in-station tuition at public universities. My point was that out-of-state and private college tuition costs have soared, so clearly the market doesn't work. I realise that America has a lot of high ranked universities, but quality in community colleges and 'normal' universities is nowhere near as high.
You may be right. I'm appalled at the standard of education my daughter is receiving at UCF - a bog standard, state uni. Whether it's any worse that she would get at UCLan (my alma mater- a British bog standard) I couldn't say - I suspect it is though.
Privates do cost a fortune. She has a friend who is shelling out $20k a year to study some complete bollox at a private in Orlando. Rollings College. It's a place for dumb kids with parents that have more money than sense.
Some communities are pretty good though. (Well, good enough anyway) Dirt cheap and will get you two years (AA/AS) that you can transfer.
The real scam is the graduate JD programs. These schmucks pay $50k a year for a law degree that is so bad they can't even pass the State bar. It's a national disgrace that these places keep their doors open.
If we lowered fees, where would the extra money come from? You've already had some 13 years of free education, why is it so wrong to expect you to now pay for your education? As a graduate, you generally earn more than someone who goes straight from college to work.
It's one of the cheapest loans with one of the best deals you'll ever get.
Someone mentioned something about going into jobs for the benefit of others - I disagree. Haven't you chosen to study and go into those jobs?
It's one of the cheapest loans with one of the best deals you'll ever get.
Someone mentioned something about going into jobs for the benefit of others - I disagree. Haven't you chosen to study and go into those jobs?
I enrolled at university in the last academic year before the new tuition fees were enforced. I thought £3375 was reasonable but didn't recognise any improvement in the 'customer service' when the new fees came in (so I felt really sorry for those students), lecturers still read off their 2+ year old Powerpoint slides, still late/overdue when it came to giving feedback for assignments etc. Paying £5000 for a postgraduate course has been reasonable so far as the tuition there are very much geared towards getting you to succeed rather than an 'I get paid regardless' mindset.
Those on the £9000 tuition fees will be unlikely to get paid back so it defies logic really why they were increased in the first place, surprised it hasn't taken its toll on the SLC yet.
Those on the £9000 tuition fees will be unlikely to get paid back so it defies logic really why they were increased in the first place, surprised it hasn't taken its toll on the SLC yet.
You shouldn't have to pay anything, you don't pay for SATS, GCSE's or A-Levels so why all of a sudden you have to pay thousands of pounds for a degree...? seriously, how random is that? You gotta remember universities are making over 1 billion pounds annually off of us, and I don't mean that in terms of totality, I mean individual universities are making over 1 billion pounds annually off us...now...is that really necessary...?
(edited 8 years ago)
The annual incomes of universities could end world poverty lol
Original post by MoniqueBubbles
You shouldn't have to pay anything, you don't pay for SATS, GCSE's or A-Levels so why all of a sudden you have to pay thousands of pounds for a degree...? seriously, how random is that? You gotta remember universities are making over 1 billion pounds annually off of us, and I don't mean that in terms of totality, I mean individual universities are making over 1 billion pounds annually off us...now...is that really necessary...?
Because university is a choice, not a right. You still would have to pay for all those things over the age of, I think, 19.
But yes, the amount of money universities earn is stomach churning.
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