cant stand religion bashers

Original post by Emilia1320

Nope, I don't have faith in deities or supernatural beings and my faith in humanity is crumbling very quickly after Paris strikes.

but you do have faith. The vast majority of people do, Your faith is there, it doesnt have to be in a diety but its still there.

You want your faith in humanity restored somewhat, look at the support the world is currently giving Paris, i dont mean the politicians with their pre written and pre approved speeches but just the everyday folk. Those people who extend thier sympathies but also condemn only the terrorists and those who sent them not the entire muslim world. 7 Billion people in this world - not everyone is evil, not everyone is filled with religiously imposed hate. There are good people out there. Yes there are those who take religion and twist it, yes there are faults and indeed dangers of blind indoctrination but that is not all there is. There is nothing in this world that cannot be twisted into a bad light.

When it comes to religion i suppose mine is slightly skewed as my religion doesnt go "we are right you are wrong" - which is mostly an Abrahamic condition. But there are many many good people who follow religion no matter which one.

Reply 423

troubadour.

[QUOTE="silverbolt;60626159"]Yes there are those who take religion and twist it[/b], yes there are faults and indeed dangers of blind indoctrination but that is not all there is. There is nothing in this world that cannot be twisted into a bad light.

With all due respect, to pretend that all the negative effects of religion are due to it being twisted is to display a high degree of naivete or an obvious bias. Nobody has denied that there are good people who are religious, but let's not take such a rose-tinted view as that.

Reply 424

silverbolt

Original post by Hydeman

With all due respect, to pretend that all the negative effects of religion are due to it being twisted is to display a high degree of naivete or an obvious bias. Nobody has denied that there are good people who are religious, but let's not take such a rose-tinted view as that.

i did not mean that. I even said in that post that there are faults. I do not pretend that religion is flawless either through its followers, or its leaders or its texts.

Reply 425

Stevo F

18

Original post by StudentInSociety

... Because after all, even if influenced by religion, you still make the active choice to follow it and live a life of morality.

We do get to choose to be religious! for example the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation where you learn more about Catholicism and then decide to continue confirmation into faith. This happens when you're a teenager, so you get to be a competent individual...!

My issue is with parents who strongly indoctrinate their children at a young age when they don't have the capacity to make their own decision about whether to follow a religion, and if so which religion to follow.

As you've said, you should choose a religion because you agree with what it says, but in that case you would get, say, a Christian family bringing up a child who becomes Jewish, or Muslim and that child ends up having a child which could follow a completely different religion or none at all.

The fact that this doesn't happen, and entire families of people tend to follow the same religion from a young age proves that the religion of a person is overwhelmingly decided by indoctrination of the family rather than any conscious decision to follow a particular religion's values.

I don't have an issue with a person following a religion as long as they know why they're following it and they actually agree with what the religion says from their own judgement.

As you have said, in Catholicism you have confirmation which I think is actually a good idea, I mean obviously you're still going to have some outside pressure to confirm, but at least the person gets a choice at an age where they are capable of making that kind of decision. In contrast you hear about other people who despite going through indoctrination their entire lives decide that a religion is not for them and STILL cannot change faith for fear that their parents will kick them out of their home and/or disown them.
This, I feel, is one of the worst things about religion.

As an atheist it would be easy for me to say there's no point in religion as you can just follow your own code rather than needing a pre-existing set of guidelines, but I do understand some people's need for a religion, for having faith, guidance, and a community. And that's great, I just wish it would be the person's choice, and not determined by their environment.

P.S quoted you because of a point you made, don't feel like this is an attack on you or all of it is directed at you, I ended up writing more than I expected haha

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 426

Emilia1320

9

Original post by StudentInSociety

Interesting angle, but could you say that the active decision to base moral backbone on the will of God does involve the decision of one's self to do so? Thus causing the action to be influenced by faith, but still decided and executed by the individual. Because after all, even if influenced by religion, you still make the active choice to follow it and live a life of morality.

We do get to choose to be religious! for example the Catholic sacrament of Confirmation where you learn more about Catholicism and then decide to continue confirmation into faith. This happens when you're a teenager, so you get to be a competent individual and learn to grow peacefully in faith or otherwise.

What's wrong with saying "God wants us to live that way"? It's not like it's encouraging us to be bad people or not be normal. God is not asking us to be "dumb", he's asking us to grow in humility and acknowledge how fragile and vulnerable we are as people, and look to his power to be the best versions of ourselves we can be! This seriously cannot be seen as a "social disease"!

Or then we don't get to choose but our parents threaten us with all kind of nasty things if we dom't go to comfirmation camp. Alas, I was kicked out midway for merely expressing my atheistic worldview on the discussion excercises, so they got mad anyway.

Reply 427

Original post by Hydeman

This is all anybody needs to know about this particular individual. Wish there was some way to have this post moved to the first page so no more time is wasted on this sorry excuse of a debater.

At least I'm honest. I've never intended to debate with you as though I might be wrong. If that makes me a sorry excuse of a debater, then so be it. It doesn't bother me. The truth remains the truth.

Original post by bassbabe

Zzzzzzzz sorry what was that m8??

I'm saying that nobody has ever forced their religion on you. You're allowed to think whatever you want. Is somebody telling you their view forcing their religion on you? But I thought we all had the right to freedom of speech? If a vegan yelled in your face for you to stop eating meat and become a vegan because they thought it was evil to eat animals, would they be forcing their belief on you? Or just exercising their right to voice their views? You don't have to agree, you can think whatever you want about their views. That's what I was trying to say - you exaggerate.

Reply 428

troubadour.

Original post by Pride

At least I'm honest. I've never intended to debate with you as though I might be wrong. If that makes me a sorry excuse of a debater, then so be it. It doesn't bother me. The truth remains the truth.

I expect honesty by default in any debate -- you don't get extra brownie points for that. For somebody who seems to enjoy calling out arrogance where it doesn't exist, you seem to hold the rather arrogant view that you are in possession of the non-negotiable truth and anybody who disagrees with you isn't.

Bold part: It's not a 'debate' at all if you're not willing to be proven wrong; it's preaching. Which is rather apt because if you're anything like you've shown here, a job as a preacher is likely the only job you won't get kicked out of after a certain amount of time.

Reply 429

Original post by Hydeman

I expect honesty by default in any debate -- you don't get extra brownie points for that. For somebody who seems to enjoy calling out arrogance where it doesn't exist, you seem to hold the rather arrogant view that you are in possession of the non-negotiable truth and anybody who disagrees with you isn't.

I am only arrogant if the bible is wrong. You don't know that to be true, so you cannot be sure that I'm arrogant. I believe in the supernatural, I believe in revelation. If I didn't believe in God, then indeed, I could not be confident in that belief. How could I? But if the basis of my belief is supernatural, then I can be confident in it.

Of course, these things aren't proof that my beliefs are correct or are based on anything supernatural. I'm just pointing out where you are mistaken.

Bold part: It's not a 'debate' at all if you're not willing to be proven wrong; it's preaching. Which is rather apt because if you're anything like you've shown here, a job as a preacher is likely the only job you won't get kicked out of after a certain amount of time.

It's a matter of definitions. I'm on a forum, answering questions with answers I believe to be true. I'm also defending the validity of the bible. I actually see my inputs on this thread as helpful, but sure, you don't have to agree.

And lol, you think I should get kicked out of the workplace for spreading the gospel in discussion? I thought there were laws against that kind of discrimination... I guess I can only be glad that you don't have a say on employment legislation. Imagine the persecution.

Reply 430

StudentInSociety

1

Original post by Stevo F

My issue is with parents who strongly indoctrinate their children at a young age when they don't have the capacity to make their own decision about whether to follow a religion, and if so which religion to follow.

As you've said, you should choose a religion because you agree with what it says, but in that case you would get, say, a Christian family bringing up a child who becomes Jewish, or Muslim and that child ends up having a child which could follow a completely different religion or none at all.

The fact that this doesn't happen, and entire families of people tend to follow the same religion from a young age proves that the religion of a person is overwhelmingly decided by indoctrination of the family rather than any conscious decision to follow a particular religion's values.

I don't have an issue with a person following a religion as long as they know why they're following it and they actually agree with what the religion says from their own judgement.

As you have said, in Catholicism you have confirmation which I think is actually a good idea, I mean obviously you're still going to have some outside pressure to confirm, but at least the person gets a choice at an age where they are capable of making that kind of decision. In contrast you hear about other people who despite going through indoctrination their entire lives decide that a religion is not for them and STILL cannot change faith for fear that their parents will kick them out of their home and/or disown them.
This, I feel, is one of the worst things about religion.

As an atheist it would be easy for me to say there's no point in religion as you can just follow your own code rather than needing a pre-existing set of guidelines, but I do understand some people's need for a religion, for having faith, guidance, and a community. And that's great, I just wish it would be the person's choice, and not determined by their environment.

P.S quoted you because of a point you made, don't feel like this is an attack on you or all of it is directed at you, I ended up writing more than I expected haha

No worries! Indoctrinating is common in every sense of the word for all things. It's just life. I said it in another post before, but people parent on the values they grew up with themselves e.g. a CEO having a successful child in a similar business because of the financial and educational enrichment they grew up with, or even the poverty cycle whereby a child living in poverty is more likely to stay in poverty (all of which is subject to change). It's completely up to the environment they so happened to be born with.

But the point of the matter is that yes some people may grow up to not like the faith they grew up in, but people have a choice. I feel for the people who feel pressured to stay in their faith, so my advice would be communication and knowledge! Talk to the people who they feel pressure from, and back up their thoughts with real and troubling concern. If this doesn't work, then maybe outside help is needed i.e. an understanding family member, or a fair and partial person of their religion who will consider the concern of the individual. Because after all, parents with strong faith only want what's best for their children. No one's going to force a child to pray and believe in God out of malice and intent to disadvantage their child. If they do, then I have no idea WHAT these people are! :confused:

It's unfortunate if someone falls out of faith, for us it's like losing a brother or sister who doesn't experience the same joy we feel anymore. But never the less, it's their choice. I just post on here to show people that Christianity and religion in general isn't a dictatorship or a life sentence to a life of "rules". It's about introducing someone to this amazing being called God and making active decisions to be the best people we can be.

Reply 431

troubadour.

Original post by Pride

I am only arrogant if the bible is wrong. You don't know that to be true, so you cannot be sure that I'm arrogant. I believe in the supernatural, I believe in revelation. If I didn't believe in God, then indeed, I could not be confident in that belief. How could I? But if the basis of my belief is supernatural, then I can be confident in it.

Incorrect premise. You are arrogant if you hold a belief to be unquestionably true (which you do -- hence my certainty in your arrogance), regardless of whether it is in fact true. If there is nothing that will convince you that you are wrong, then you are arrogant.

That is not to say that one has to have the time to entertain any and all outrageous beliefs but there's a fine line between not having the time to sit down and have a debate and digging one's heels in the ground and declaring that you won't budge even if all the evidence in the universe turned against your view, as you do.

Underlined: Then presumably the reverse is true and you believe that simple belief allows you to be confident in that belief? Nice -- a belief as its own evidence. I'll leave you ponder the futility of that approach to determining truth.

Of course, these things aren't proof that my beliefs are correct or are based on anything supernatural.

You just contradicted what you said a few lines previously...

I'm just pointing out where you are mistaken.

Still waiting for that long list of things I'm mistaken about so this is clearly a false claim.

It's a matter of definitions. I'm on a forum, answering questions with answers I believe to be true. I'm also defending the validity of the bible. I actually see my inputs on this thread as helpful, but sure, you don't have to agree.

That's not quite the complete truth. If you were only answering questions, you wouldn't have made the inordinately large number of claims that aren't in response to a question -- you've even told somebody on previous pages that, for every claim they make, you can show them why its misguided. Based on my own experience, I think I can safely conclude that that offer is hyperbolic rather than literal.

And lol, you think I should get kicked out of the workplace for spreading the gospel in discussion? I thought there were laws against that kind of discrimination... I guess I can only be glad that you don't have a say on employment legislation. Imagine the persecution.

*sigh* Same old Pride, deliberately changing little words to get the meaning he needs to make a false point against his opponent. Here's what was actually said:

Original post by Hydeman

Which is rather apt because if you're anything like you've shown here, a job as a preacher is likely the only job you won't get kicked out of after a certain amount of time.

I'll leave you to think about why you bothered to change 'won't get kicked out' to 'should get kicked out.' Not to mention that I was referring to your status as a person who arrogantly pushes religion in people's faces as being the likely cause of your being unable to hold onto non-preacher jobs for long, not simply discussing it.

Reply 432

StudentInSociety

1

Original post by Emilia1320

Or then we don't get to choose but our parents threaten us with all kind of nasty things if we dom't go to comfirmation camp. Alas, I was kicked out midway for merely expressing my atheistic worldview on the discussion excercises, so they got mad anyway.

Well I don't know what you were expecting! Of course they would kick you out if you were saying things to undermine their teachings, it's rude! There's a time and place, and you full-well know that wasn't it! You could have just left quietly and went on with your life if you did not like what you were hearing.

Reply 433

Original post by Hydeman

That's not quite the complete truth. If you were only answering questions, you wouldn't have made the inordinately large number of claims that aren't in response to a question -- you've even told somebody on previous pages that, for every claim they make, you can show them why its misguided. Based on my own experience, I think I can safely conclude that that offer is hyperbolic rather than literal.

This is the only thing I have read in your post that I think is a good point, so I'll just approach this. I would only retype my answers if I were to reply to the rest.

Granted, I haven't only answered people's questions. But I have also expressed my views. I have replied to people I feel have been misguided. I have offered to delineate how I think they are wrong. I have defended the validity of the bible. All these things I am perfectly entitled to do. It's only arrogance if the bible isn't true. Bear in mind that it makes claims of the supernatural where convictions are concerned (e.g. John 16:8) - if it didn't then sure, it would be arrogant to be confident of the validity of my reasoning.

Reply 434

skunkboy

11

Original post by Pride

He was directly quoting the bible. 'The love of money is the root of all evil.

The Bible is like a map. who made the map? the maker has ever seen God,do you think?

Reply 435

Emilia1320

9

Original post by StudentInSociety

Well I don't know what you were expecting! Of course they would kick you out if you were saying things to undermine their teachings, it's rude! There's a time and place, and you full-well know that wasn't it! You could have just left quietly and went on with your life if you did not like what you were hearing.

The point on those excercises was to express viewpoints and discuss. They asked us to speak out and discuss, exchnage opinions. They just didnt happen to like mine.

Reply 436

Original post by skunkboy

The Bible is like a map. who made the map? the maker has ever seen God,do you think?

The bible is a collection of 66 books, written by a number of people in different locations over thousands of years. They all coincide, and lead up to the story of Jesus and the early church. Christians believe that each writer was inspired by God. The four gospels for example are eye-witness accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. Genesis was written by Moses, one of the forefathers of the Jews.

I think people should read the books and consider what Jesus claimed, because that's what persuaded me. But then there's also all the historical research that has been done as well. Where did the Torah come from? How come Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies told in the Torah? How reliable are the various books? Lots of stuff people do research on.

Reply 437

bassbabe

14

Original post by Pride

At least I'm honest. I've never intended to debate with you as though I might be wrong. If that makes me a sorry excuse of a debater, then so be it. It doesn't bother me. The truth remains the truth.

I'm saying that nobody has ever forced their religion on you. You're allowed to think whatever you want. Is somebody telling you their view forcing their religion on you? But I thought we all had the right to freedom of speech? If a vegan yelled in your face for you to stop eating meat and become a vegan because they thought it was evil to eat animals, would they be forcing their belief on you? Or just exercising their right to voice their views? You don't have to agree, you can think whatever you want about their views. That's what I was trying to say - you exaggerate.

I know what you were trying to say, I was just bored by it. Please don't be offended, just exercising the right to voice my views :smile:

Zzzzzzz

Reply 438

skunkboy

11

Original post by Pride

The bible is a collection of 66 books, written by a number of people in different locations over thousands of years. They all coincide, and lead up to the story of Jesus and the early church. Christians believe that each writer was inspired by God. The four gospels for example are eye-witness accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. Genesis was written by Moses, one of the forefathers of the Jews.

I think people should read the books and consider what Jesus claimed, because that's what persuaded me. But then there's also all the historical research that has been done as well. Where did the Torah come from? How come Jesus fulfilled hundreds of prophecies told in the Torah? How reliable are the various books? Lots of stuff people do research on.

Jesus might have been just a human, not the son of God , don't you think? He probably discovered the supernatural power inside of him.

Reply 439