Is it time Europe bans Islam &amp;amp;amp; muslim immigration?

Original post by LadyCrystal

I very seriously ask you: where do you see any difference and evolution, any change and any improvement in the Islam since the Mohamed's death?
Show me please, and make me believe it. Islam stays absolutely the same, no change, since Mohamed died. It is even based as a law in the Qur'an, don't change it.
Nobody wants to change the word of God or the word of the Messenger, but pople DO need change in their lives. It is ridiculous in 21 century to live like in a Bedouin tent in the desert.
I personally don't see sense in sticking to stupidity in a fanatical way, seriously.
And I will believe you, if Islam change idiotic stupidities like marring 4 women, making these women to obey by beating, marrying children and raping them 'legally', also the stupid burkas problem.
Show me how Muslims improved their lives living in their own religion, and make me believe it.

Islam doesn't need to change, because it didn't contain wife beating, child marriage, rape, or burqas to begin with, and polygamy was emphatically discouraged in Quran 4:169.
Wife beating is not in islam. Muhammad said (according to wasa'il al shia 14/250, which is a classical hadith collection compiled by Ibn Kulayni in the 10th century, not a modernist opinion):

The Holy Prophet said: 'I am amazed at the one who beats his wife - he is more deserving to be struck himself. Do not strike your wives with canes, because there is legislative retaliation for that. Rather, chastise them by no longer providing for them (i.e. not giving them the material benefits of marriage). Thus you shall gain felicity in this world and the next.'

The burqa is totally poinltess because the quran only refers to women having to cover their cleavage in 24:31. Hijab is not a headscarf and refers to the 'code of modesty' which involves an obligatory minimum (covering between the knees and navel, and the chest) and voluntary extra parts, like the stomach, legs, shoulders and hair for some women.

If you want evidence of the good effects of Islam upon civilisation, once upon a time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

During this period Sheikh Nasiruddin Tusi theorised evolution. From wikipedia:

In his Akhlaq-i-Nasri, Tusi put forward a basic theory for the evolution of species almost 600 years before Charles Darwin, the English naturalist credited with advancing the idea, was born. He begins his theory of evolution with the universe once consisting of equal and similar elements. According to Tusi, internal contradictions began appearing, and as a result, some substances began developing faster and differently from other substances. He then explains how the elements evolved into minerals, then plants, then animals, and then humans. Tusi then goes on to explain how hereditary variability was an important factor for biological evolution of living things:^[21]

"The organisms that can gain the new features faster are more variable. As a result, they gain advantages over other creatures. [...] The bodies are changing as a result of the internal and external interactions."

Tusi discusses how organisms are able to adapt to their environments:^[21]

"Look at the world of animals and birds. They have all that is necessary for defense, protection and daily life, including strengths, courage and appropriate tools [organs] [...] Some of these organs are real weapons, [...] For example, horns-spear, teeth and claws-knife and needle, feet and hoofs-cudgel. The thorns and needles of some animals are similar to arrows. [...] Animals that have no other means of defense (as the gazelle and fox) protect themselves with the help of flight and cunning. [...] Some of them, for example, bees, ants and some bird species, have united in communities in order to protect themselves and help each other."

Tusi recognized three types of living things: plants, animals, and humans. He wrote:^[21]

"Animals are higher than plants, because they are able to move consciously, go after food, find and eat useful things. [...] There are many differences between the animal and plant species, [...] First of all, the animal kingdom is more complicated. Besides, reason is the most beneficial feature of animals. Owing to reason, they can learn new things and adopt new, non-inherent abilities. For example, the trained horse or hunting falcon is at a higher point of development in the animal world. The first steps of human perfection begin from here."

Tusi then explains how humans evolved from advanced animals:^[21]

"Such apes live in the Western Sudan and other distant corners of the world. They are close to animals by their habits, deeds and behavior. [...] The human has features that distinguish him from other creatures, but he has other features that unite him with the animal world, vegetable kingdom or even with the inanimate bodies. [...] Before [the creation of humans], all differences between organisms were of the natural origin. The next step will be associated with spiritual perfection, will, observation and knowledge. [...] All these facts prove that the human being is placed on the middle step of the evolutionary stairway. According to his inherent nature, the human is related to the lower beings, and only with the help of his will can he reach the higher development level."

Islam's laws can change with changing circumstances in order to best adhere to Islamic principles. Islamic principles do not change.

Reply 602

Original post by LadyCrystal

I seriously believe it.

The Middle East is messy for the last 14 centuries, do you see any impact or difference in religious sense?
If you don't see results, that only means that no Muslim wanting results. They only wave around Qur'an and shout, kill each other and achieve nothing.

See how the Vatican evolved for these centuries and think what I describe.

So Muslims don't want change, they only want domination. No more.

Completely false. You may be unaware that ISIS are being fought mainly by muslims - Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, Kurds, Houthis, and others.

Reply 603

Original post by LadyCrystal

Show me how Muslims improved their lives living in their own religion, and make me believe it.

Things that used to happen in pre-islamic Arabia that muhammad ended:

1. Burial of female newborns out of shame for having produced a female.
2. Oppression of slaves and the taking of free people as slaves.
3. Women not being allowed to own property
4. Women not being allowed to have careers
5. Flagrant racism towards non-arabs
6. Oppression of the poor and support for the rich

And more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_social_changes_under_Islam

Reply 604

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

Things that used to happen in pre-islamic Arabia that muhammad ended:

3. Women not being allowed to own property
4. Women not being allowed to have careers

And more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_social_changes_under_Islam

Wasn't old mo's first wife a successful business women.

Reply 605

Original post by BaconandSauce

Wasn't old mo's first wife a successful business women.

Her kind of story was unknown in her time. Khadija was a first of many things, including the first woman in Mecca to start an orphanage of sorts, taking in girls who would otherwise have been killed by their fathers by live burial. She was also an apostate to arab paganism, having refrained from keeping or worshiping idols, which was atypical for the time without conversion either to Christianity or Judaism.

Reply 606

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

Her kind of story was unknown in her time. Khadija was a first of many things, including the first woman in Mecca to start an orphanage of sorts, taking in girls who would otherwise have been killed by their fathers by live burial. She was also an apostate to arab paganism, having refrained from keeping or worshiping idols, which was atypical for the time without conversion either to Christianity or Judaism.

You very much tell me the 1003 Islamic nights and days.

Really such an effort, I am impressed.

I only wanted to know how Muslims had improved their life living in that particular religion.

You are explaining me who beats who, who fights who, who said what.

I don't need that, I don't need words, Muslim don't need words too.

Muslims need improvements. I do believe many of them seek just that improvement in the West which they cannot ever have in the Islam.

Your own people run away or betray Islam, to seek what they cannot find in Islam, even they deny it fanatically.

Show me please how Islam improved the everyday life of its followers, that is what I want to know.

Followers of Islam still live in degradation, wars, conflicts and hate. How happen that only Islam has a serious problem with hate and bloodsheds? it is not in any other religion, not at all, all around the world.

That is the answer which all the world seeks, answer how nobody else was able to answer the true answer and you will be honoured to be the most respected man in the whole world.

Reply 607

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

Her kind of story was unknown in her time. Khadija was a first of many things, including the first woman in Mecca to start an orphanage of sorts, taking in girls who would otherwise have been killed by their fathers by live burial. She was also an apostate to arab paganism, having refrained from keeping or worshiping idols, which was atypical for the time without conversion either to Christianity or Judaism.

You Muslims are so mistaken to deny history.

In Rome many women had professions and they were earning better than men even. It is historically proven fact.

Greece has examples ot very educated women practicing medicine, science, art and all sort of such stuff, many records, proven historical fact, remember Egypt and even Mesopotamia.

And Islam dares to deny all the human history and to claim that the first wife ot Mohamed was the first woman to do it????

Clearly, you give me a good laugh, honestly.

Who tell you these 1009 Arab night stories and you believe it? the Qur'an? ah, I couldn't catch the hint how Qur'an cannot be objected, history and science mean nothing and people mean nothing too.

It is so nice to see how ABSOLUTELY EVERY MUSLIM fails down in the same trap.....who brainwashes you so well?

Reply 608

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

Her kind of story was unknown in her time.

Not really. There are plenty of other examples.

All you are saying is he changed these things for a minority group of people

But to say it was the 'first time' is rather dishonest give we have example who mo actually knew of and only relevant to a minority of people and not unique in the slightest.

Reply 609

Original post by LadyCrystal

You very much tell me the 1003 Islamic nights and days.

Really such an effort, I am impressed.

I only wanted to know how Muslims had improved their life living in that particular religion.

You are explaining me who beats who, who fights who, who said what.

I don't need that, I don't need words, Muslim don't need words too.

Muslims need improvements. I do believe many of them seek just that improvement in the West which they cannot ever have in the Islam.

Your own people run away or betray Islam, to seek what they cannot find in Islam, even they deny it fanatically.

Show me please how Islam improved the everyday life of its followers, that is what I want to know.

Followers of Islam still live in degradation, wars, conflicts and hate. How happen that only Islam has a serious problem with hate and bloodsheds? it is not in any other religion, not at all, all around the world.

That is the answer which all the world seeks, answer how nobody else was able to answer the true answer and you will be honoured to be the most respected man in the whole world.

People leave the islamic religion because they're not exposed to the original, pure islam that was revealed. Instead they're exposed to a barbaric, hateful, intolerant and oppressive, poisoned version of the religion.

'the islam' - what do you mean by this? You compared 'the islam' with the west which makes you sound like you think that islam is a... place?
Islam is not a place.

Followers of Islam live in different situations, just like Christians do. Christians used to live in just as much hate and conflict as muslims do now, and it took them nearly 2000 years. We've only had just over half that time, and it was only a few years ago that the IRA were murdering protestants.

Muslims in Iran live in a stable country despite being a theocratic democracy, in a much better situation than in Saudi Arabia (theocratic monarchy), which is stable but where minorities and women have no rights.
Muslims in Turkey live in a relatively stable country, with the exception of the threat of the PKK kurdish terrorist group.
Muslims in Algeria and Morocco live in stability, with little to no 'hate, degradation and bloodshed'. The same goes for Oman.

Azerbaijan lives under an anti-islamic dictatorship where the people have almost no freedom.

All the good things that the West has, original Islam teaches, but muslims do not practice. All of the things what you hate about 'islam' are no in the Quran, I can guarantee that. They have been introduced after Muhammad - negative changes have been made.

Reply 610

Original post by LadyCrystal

You Muslims are so mistaken to deny history.

In Rome many women had professions and they were earning better than men even. It is historically proven fact.

Greece has examples ot very educated women practicing medicine, science, art and all sort of such stuff, many records, proven historical fact, remember Egypt and even Mesopotamia.

And Islam dares to deny all the human history and to claim that the first wife ot Mohamed was the first woman to do it????

Clearly, you give me a good laugh, honestly.

Who tell you these 1009 Arab night stories and you believe it? the Qur'an? ah, I couldn't catch the hint how Qur'an cannot be objected, history and science mean nothing and people mean nothing too.

It is so nice to see how ABSOLUTELY EVERY MUSLIM fails down in the same trap.....who brainwashes you so well?

I said she was the first in Mecca. Not the first in the world.

Reply 611

Original post by BaconandSauce

Not really. There are plenty of other examples.

All you are saying is he changed these things for a minority group of people

But to say it was the 'first time' is rather dishonest give we have example who mo actually knew of and only relevant to a minority of people and not unique in the slightest.

It was the first for the people of the society in which he lived. Again, I never claimed that it was the first in the world. Rather, Islam incorporated many good ideas that had come about all over the world in one place. A welfare system, women's rights, a system by which slavery (should) be gradually abolished, an end to racism, the non-aggression principle, republicanism, and many other things came about in one place in one time - despite that many of these things were strangled out of islam after muhammad's death.

Reply 612

Original post by LadyCrystal

You Muslims are so mistaken to deny history.

In Rome many women had professions and they were earning better than men even. It is historically proven fact.

Greece has examples ot very educated women practicing medicine, science, art and all sort of such stuff, many records, proven historical fact, remember Egypt and even Mesopotamia.

And Islam dares to deny all the human history and to claim that the first wife ot Mohamed was the first woman to do it????

Clearly, you give me a good laugh, honestly.

Who tell you these 1009 Arab night stories and you believe it? the Qur'an? ah, I couldn't catch the hint how Qur'an cannot be objected, history and science mean nothing and people mean nothing too.

It is so nice to see how ABSOLUTELY EVERY MUSLIM fails down in the same trap.....who brainwashes you so well?

You say that I'm denying history, but you're denying the islamic golden era, where history and science were of paramount importance to muslim society?

Reply 613

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

Completely false. You may be unaware that ISIS are being fought mainly by muslims - Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, Kurds, Houthis, and others.

Vatican really evolved and improved a lot, refusing to fight savages for no good reason.

That is something to impress me really.

Islam will be always a savage religion until Islam doesn't establish better rules for the followers to follow. Islam proclaims only hate and war, this is why followers cannot escape wars and hate.

When Muslims understand how their lives are wasted after a false and hatred religion, they themselves will want to change something.

That religion is twisting the real word of God in many ways, this is why Islam cannot find peace in God.

The real proof for finding God is when God bless you with peace, inner and outer. Muslims cannot enjoy that, they follow a false word of God.

Reply 614

Original post by LadyCrystal

Vatican really evolved and improved a lot, refusing to fight savages for no good reason.
That is something to impress me really.
Islam will be always a savage religion until Islam doesn't establish better rules for the followers to follow. Islam proclaims only hate and war, this is why followers cannot escape wars and hate.
When Muslims understand how their lives are wasted after a false and hatred religion, they themselves will want to change something.
That religion is twisting the real word of God in many ways, this is why Islam cannot find peace in God.
The real proof for finding God is when God bless you with peace, inner and outer. Muslims cannot enjoy that, they follow a false word of God.

What rules exactly do you have a problem with? What 'hate and war' does islam proclaim?

Reply 615

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

I said she was the first in Mecca. Not the first in the world.

That says so much.

So, isolated in Mecca, an Arab tribal, not knowing civilisation, claims to civilize the world with their own desert tent religion?

You know, somehow you can impress a Bedouin or a savage, but how you can impress a Christian, having civilisation developed and joyful for centuries all across 3 continents: Asia, Europe, Africa. Far back in the history.

Somehow you all Muslims fall down in the same mental trap. How you do it? how you pick it up to brainwash you and to stop thinking, analysing and ruling your own lives?

What is better for you?

Many of you choose it, being in denial. You even don't admit what really leads you in Europe, do you?

It is a real proof how much you cannot live in your own religion, how anti-human is that religion.

Don't you understand how that converts you, to see normal people having fun in a normal way, normal life, normal earnings and normal family being happy not beating the wife.

I cannot sympathize your dilemma, it is the Tantalus' dilemma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantalus

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 616

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

What rules exactly do you have a problem with? What 'hate and war' does islam proclaim?

Under the wing of Islam, was developed a very dark culture of twisting the God's word.
Beating women, raping children etc is NOT the God's word really, even Muslims admit it.

Why than that exists to such extend in the Islamic culture only? no other culture having that to such extend.

Until you realize how that exposes you as violators and aggressors, you won't find peace from God.

Reply 617

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

You say that I'm denying history, but you're denying the islamic golden era, where history and science were of paramount importance to muslim society?

For you only I will admit, I was exploring Islam and Qur'an for a while.

Qur'an has many good findings.

I don't know the reason why (I am not born in Islam) but Muslim people twist the God's word and perform it badly in their lives. It is not enough to know it, you need to perform it. That is why Qur'an asks you to pray 5 times a day - not to repeat versus for hate, but to learn how to perform God's Love in your lives. Shouting versus is not helpful. What makes difference is to perform God's word - to Love.

It is a very powerful word - God proclaims only love. Only. Jesus never proclaimed hate or war, or revenge, as the words of Mohamed were twisted. Jesus agreed to be hanged on the Christ to defend the Divine Love.

Mohamed took the God's word for Love and performed it in war, defence and hate. Remember how many wars Mohamed had to fight.
Who ever heard Jesus to fight and make war, or to keep a war ongoing?

Jesus' words were twisted too, but he succeeded to put a mainstream of the main message - God is Love, Divine Love.

Where you don't follow that Divine Love, you twist God's word openly and raise against God itself.

Muslims will be punished for that, remember Sodom and Gomorrah. Don't underestimate God.

Islam and Muslims fail in following the God's word.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 618

BaconandSauce

5

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

It was the first for the people of the society in which he lived. Again,

A few villages yes but given it's contact with the outside world these ideas as you acknowledged already existed

Original post by Hasan_Ahmed

I never claimed that it was the first in the world.

and I acknowledged that

Reply 619

TheArtofProtest