"We need to talk about anonymity for rape suspects."

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How do you prove it's a false accusation though? I mean if the accused has solid alibis etc. then fair enough but what if it's just an acquittal due to lack of evidence, not conclusive proof of innocence if that makes sense?

Huh, I never actually stopped to consider point that in its entirety.

The very nature of an acquittal being a presumption through lack of prosecuting evidence makes it inherently illogical for a false allegation to itself be prosecuted... there'd be a complete contradiction of the two presumptions of innocence from both cases...

Reply 41

Jebedee

Original post by rachel x

That is a good point, but the stress of an accusation and trial should still be considered whether they are found guilty or not. I personally don't believe it's a good idea, because of the amount of other things there are for these people to worry about - the chance they could be criminally charged for a false accusation, not just non-criminally accused (the claim that a rape accusation is false is far more common than a true false accusation), is just another thing to add. I do see where you're coming from though.

This applies to "false accusers" as well. If an accused rapist is found not guilty, it doesn't mean the accusation was false. It means that you couldn't prove it was true.

If they are criminally charged with falsely accusing, who gives a damn about how stressful it is for them?

Reply 42

Twinpeaks

Original post by Mactotaur

It's really not. If you accuse someone of rape with the intention of destroying their life, why should you get off lightly?

I'm not saying they should get off lightly. They should be punished. But anyone who believes the pain and stress suffered by someone falsely accused of rape is equal to that suffered by an actual victim of rape is unfit to even discuss the topic. End of. I've said it on here before and I'll say it again, 3% of rapes end up with the rapist punished for their crime. There is something disturbing about the wealth of men in society rn who deem the issue of false rape accusations a greater concern. Saying this in no way whatsoever diminishes the importance of the need to prevent and punish false rape accusations. I am merely pointing out that the gulf of concern by the majority of men on tsr is with false accusations, very little concern shown for the crime itself. Disturbing.

Reply 43

a noble chance

Original post by rachel x

This applies to "false accusers" as well. If an accused rapist is found not guilty, it doesn't mean the accusation was false. It means that you couldn't prove it was true.

The presumption of innocence applies to the defendant only. It would equally apply to a defendant accused of making a false rape allegation. I am sure there are plenty of cases of someone unsuccessful in convicting another of rape being cleared in a subsequent trial of making a false rape allegation, but the fact that their alleged rapist was acquitted previously must surely not help their defence in a trial for defamation.

Original post by Nununu

Not guilty could meab there was reasonable doubt.

And therefore the presumption that the accused is innocent

Reply 44

a noble chance

Original post by Twinpeaks

How can anyone possibly provide evidence for this?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 45

JRM3PM

Original post by Bornblue

There was an official investigation into it by the CPS who found no evidence whatsoever of widespread false allegations. Yet on the back of no evidence at all, you think you know better.

If you are asserting that there are vast numbers of false allegations then let's see your evidence. You have to back up your claim.

If you are arguing that they are widespread, the onus is on you to prove it. So go on, the floor is yours.

Due to the nature of false allegations, it's almost impossible to get a reliable source. Most studies show that the figure for malicious false rape allegations lie between 4-8%. While the average for other crimes lies around 2%. As for baseless accusations, studies show that for 25-50% of rape allegations, no crime was committed.
You also have to realise that a lot of baseless allegations and malicious false allegations are stopped before anything becomes official.

I can't help but feel that this is largely driven by angry feminists and their 'rape culture' culture.

Reply 46

rachel x

Original post by Jebedee

If they are criminally charged with falsely accusing, who gives a damn about how stressful it is for them?

You are talking about a person who has possibly been through a very traumatic experience, having to defend themselves for reporting the person that put them through said traumatic experience.

"Criminally charged" =/= guilty

Reply 47

Twinpeaks

Original post by a noble chance

How can anyone possibly be able to provide evidence for this?

It is an impossible task. But my tutor at university has studied it for over a decade, published numerous articles on the matter and is pretty much considered an authority on the matter. He works with the prison system as well as research.

Reply 48

a noble chance

Original post by Twinpeaks

It is indeed an impossible task. The figure can have no good basis.

Reply 49

Claire461

This is the subject of my next assignment.

Reply 50

rachel x

Original post by Twinpeaks

In addition to this, the accusation that a legitimate rape was a "false accusation" can't be a good experience for a survivor either.

I'm not a huge one for statistics, as they can be misleading, but here I'm going to point out that a girl was gang raped and more media coverage went to how she had "ruined the lives" of the men she reported than to the trauma she had gone through. She is not alone in having an experience like this - too many women report similar, and too many people are afraid to report their rape at all because of things like this. People care more about rapists than rape victims, and that's something that definitely needs to change.

Reply 51

username1723547

Original post by Twinpeaks

The crime itself is horrible, I'm not denying that.

Reply 52

a noble chance

Original post by rachel x

but here I'm going to point out that a girl was gang raped and more media coverage went to how she had "ruined the lives" of the men she reported than to the trauma she had gone through. She is not alone in having an experience like this - too many women report similar, and too many people are afraid to report their rape at all because of things like this. People care more about rapists than rape victims, and that's something that definitely needs to change.

I think the bold is frankly ridiculous, but I would like to see a link to this story if you have one

Reply 53

Twinpeaks

Original post by Mactotaur

The crime itself is horrible, I'm not denying that.

Do you think the 'horribleness' of the crime is equal to that of a false accusation?

Reply 54

username1723547

Original post by Twinpeaks

Do you think the 'horribleness' of the crime is equal to that of a false accusation?

They are different. One involves a violation of perhaps the highest degree, while the other suggests extremely malicious intent.

Reply 55

rachel x

Original post by a noble chance

I think the bold is frankly ridiculous, but I would like to see a link to this story if you have one

It's actually a well known case:

CNN's Poppy Harlow stated that it was "Incredibly difficult, even for an outsider like me, to watch what happened as these two young men that had such promising futures, star football players, very good students, literally watched as they believed their lives fell apart...when that sentence came down, [Ma'lik] collapsed in the arms of his attorney...He said to him, 'My life is over. No one is going to want me now.'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case

More info can be found at:

http://mashable.com/2014/08/13/steubenville-rape-football/#iJXunrsZ7Gq8

http://www.thewire.com/national/2013/01/steubenville-high-football-rape-crew/60554/

EDIT: as for being "frankly ridiculous" - my statement is true. I didn't say all people. I didn't quality how many people at all. Maybe I phrased it in a way that suggests a majority, and maybe I should have put "some people" or something like that. But honestly, as long as some people still care about rapists more, I will phrase it like that, because that is an issue that needs to be addressed. Caring about murderers more than their victims would be viewed as disgusting by all but a very small minority. Caring about rapists more is still borderline acceptable - enough for that opinion to be voiced by a reporter of a well-known US news channel.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 56

a noble chance

Original post by Twinpeaks

Sure. This man who has dedicated the majority of his life's work to the subject, who has a massive amount of influence and respect among academics and has introduced techniques and tests used by law enforcement today is speaking out of his arse. It is an impossible task to get an exact number, yes. But not an solid estimate

And how do you arrive relably at this 'solid estimate' exactly?

I notice that you have yet to name who you are talking about or cite any of your sources.

And here we have an example of the type of man I mentioned in my post. He refuses to accept that many rapes do not end up in punishment, for him the most urgent concern is false accusations. He will discuss this while showing very little regard for the actual existence of rape in society. In discussing rape he will never concede to it's importance, he will never show any disturbance or upset over the act of rape. Overall, a worrying attitude to rape.

This is an unwarranted and offensive series of accusations and I have reported them accordingly. No one is suggesting that rape is not a terrible crime, but I do not believe that the answer consists of destroying our judicial safeguards and making up statistics seemingly out of thin air. I see no benefit to waxing lyrical about how awful rape is; that is a given. I am simply trying to be practical about this.

I think it is likely that many rapes do not end in convictions. I see no way of resolving this as a justice system without destroying everything that is good about it. What exactly do you propose we do to ensure that more rapes end in convictions, and how do you propose we go about this in such a way that will avoid convicting innocent people?

Reply 57

Twinpeaks

Original post by Mactotaur

They are different. One involves a violation of perhaps the highest degree, while the other suggests extremely malicious intent.

Please, answer my question. Is not the intent of the rapist monstrous? His violation the result of intention that goes beyond maliciousness. This isn't even about the intent. This is about the act, the crime itself, as experienced by the victim. The violation of rights. The harm done. The brutality. The pain suffered. Are. they. equal. ?

Reply 58

username1723547

Original post by Twinpeaks

The act is different, and so is the intent. They are equal in that they both have the potential and likelihood to destroy a person's life.

Reply 59

llys

Of course boys are more concerned about false allegations of rape than about actual rape. They think that the former could affect them, and that the latter could not, and quite naturally that steers the discussion (they do not yet have daughters). For girls it is exactly the same, just the other way around.