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Bill aiming to ban child marriages shot down in Pakistan as ‘anti-Islamic’.

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Original post by mil88
Yeah, you do realise that he was also 'believed' to marry a girl aged over 20. I wonder why you have only seen 1 sect, and then generalized that this must be Islam. Before making such claims, try reading more my friend.

*They read some hadiths and then all of sudden become masters of the religion*


there are far more islamic hadith that identify his bride as a child than 20, so perhaps its you that needs to expand their reading.

this is the reason why large proportion of islamically governed states set marriage age for girls low, some as low as 10, i think saudi doenst have an official minimum age.
pakistan.png
WHAAAAAAT
this world is MESSED UP
Well, looking at the bright side: there are actually attempts at the higher levels to reform such religious backwardness. So that's something, I guess. Hopefully they continue to push these ideals through.

Original post by Danny McCoyne
Why are the West trying to impose their rules on other countries?

Child marriages are a cultural thing - just because it's different to West's tradition.


"The West" doesn't own any humanist, progressive and ethical values. The racist irony in a Westerner like you telling us how our "cultures" should be is beyond belief. There are many of us from Muslim and non-Western backgrounds who do not agree with such traditions.
Reply 24
So not being a pedophile is anti-islamic? Lmao
Original post by Danny McCoyne
Why are the West trying to impose their rules on other countries?

Child marriages are a cultural thing - just because it's different to West's tradition.


And widely acknowledged as disgusting and abusive.

Just because something's cultural doesn't make it right.
So does that mean we'll have to let them have their child marriages here, because otherwise we're being "anti-Islamic".....or Islamophobic, as is the buzz word. It'll probably against their human rights or something.
Original post by Farm_Ecology
Glad you're so open you support rape and pedophilia.

Why does the information have to come from the Quran? Because you already know that she is barely mentioned, and her age isnt specified in the Quran?In any case:s-smilie:ahih al-Bukhari (5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88)
Sahih Muslim (8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915)
Sunan Abu Dawood, (41:4917)


Because the most authentic book revealed to the Muslims is the Qur'an.

Coincidence how the books that you have quoted are all from 1 sect of Islam and yet you're trying to say that this is part of the religion?
Original post by llys
Why don't you tell the Council of Islamic Ideology?


What do you mean?
Original post by NickLCFC
I.e. paedophilia and rape is a cultural thing.



I never claimed to be an expert in Islam but you're right, Prophet Muhammed was believed to have multiple wives...
Regarding Aishah;

"26 كتاب النكاح The Book of Marriage
(78)Chapter: Consummation Of Marriage With A Girl Of Nine(78) باب الْبِنَاءِ بِابْنَةِ تِسْعٍ ‏.‏
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine."
أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ سَعْدِ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ بْنِ أَبِي مَرْيَمَ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَمِّي، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ أَيُّوبَ، قَالَ أَخْبَرَنِي عُمَارَةُ بْنُ غَزِيَّةَ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ، عَنْ أَبِي سَلَمَةَ بْنِ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَهِيَ بِنْتُ سِتِّ سِنِينَ وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهِيَ بِنْتُ تِسْعٍ ‏.‏
Grade : Hasan (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3379 In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 184 English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3381 http://sunnah.com/nasai/26/184

67 Wedlock, Marriage (Nikaah)
(60)Chapter: Whoever consummated his marriage with a lady of nine years of age(59)باب مَنْ بَنَى بِامْرَأَةٍ وَهْىَ بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ
Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet (ﷺ) wrote the (marriage contract) with `Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
حَدَّثَنَا قَبِيصَةُ بْنُ عُقْبَةَ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ، عَنْ عُرْوَةَ، تَزَوَّجَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَائِشَةَ وَهْىَ ابْنَةُ سِتٍّ وَبَنَى بِهَا وَهْىَ ابْنَةُ تِسْعٍ وَمَكَثَتْ عِنْدَهُ تِسْعًا‏.‏
Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 5158 In-book reference : Book 67, Hadith 93 USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 7, Book 62, Hadith 88 http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/93

26 كتاب النكاح The Book of Marriage
(78)Chapter: Consummation Of Marriage With A Girl Of Nine(78) باب الْبِنَاءِ بِابْنَةِ تِسْعٍ ‏.‏
It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six, and consummated the marriage with me when I was nine, and I used to play with dolls."
أَخْبَرَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ آدَمَ، عَنْ عَبْدَةَ، عَنْ هِشَامٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، عَنْ عَائِشَةَ، قَالَتْ تَزَوَّجَنِي رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَأَنَا بِنْتُ سِتٍّ وَدَخَلَ عَلَىَّ وَأَنَا بِنْتُ تِسْعِ سِنِينَ وَكُنْتُ أَلْعَبُ بِالْبَنَاتِ ‏.‏
Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3378 In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 183 English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3380 http://sunnah.com/nasai/26/183"

Well done mate, isn't it an coincidence how you only quoted from 1 sect? So, what do other muslims say? Try to provide authentic hadiths from more sects, if that's not too much.
Original post by Reformed
there are far more islamic hadith that identify his bride as a child than 20, so perhaps its you that needs to expand their reading.

this is the reason why large proportion of islamically governed states set marriage age for girls low, some as low as 10, i think saudi doenst have an official minimum age.


So what? If there's a majority that believe something, then that doesn't mean it's correct. Trust me, I know a lot regarding hadiths. Anyway, are you seriously saying that the sole reason why you ignored the age of Aisha being 20 or above simply because it's a minority view. (And apparently theists are irrational and illogical).

Regarding Saudi Arabia, I'm not sure whether that's really a country which represents all muslims. Anyway, we do not follow countries, rather we aim to follow authentic hadiths that agree with the most authentic source of all, The Quran.
Original post by mil88
Because the most authentic book revealed to the Muslims is the Qur'an.



Yet it is also likely to the most biased. If you suspect someone of being a pedophile, why would your primary source be their memoirs?

Original post by mil88
Coincidence how the books that you have quoted are all from 1 sect of Islam and yet you're trying to say that this is part of the religion?


It also happens to be the largest sect.

I'm not saying it's part of the religion, I'm saying it's a historical occurrence.

Another point - Aisha was present at the Battle of Uhud (and thus married) which occurred in 625. Aisha was born in 613 at the earliest. Meaning they were married when she was 12 at the latest.

in any case, what age would you argue her age was?
Original post by Farm_Ecology
Yet it is also likely to the most biased. If you suspect someone of being a pedophile, why would your primary source be their memoirs?



It also happens to be the largest sect.

I'm not saying it's part of the religion, I'm saying it's a historical occurrence.

Another point - Aisha was present at the Battle of Uhud (and thus married) which occurred in 625. Aisha was born in 613 at the earliest. Meaning they were married when she was 12 at the latest.

in any case, what age would you argue her age was?

Are you saying that simply because they are majority, they are correct?


Why the 'and thus married'. I'm not sure why she had to be married at Ohod.

My belief is that she was atleast 19/20 from what I have seen currently.
Original post by mil88
Are you saying that simply because they are majority, they are correct?


No. But it might be an indicator.

Original post by mil88
My belief is that she was atleast 19/20 from what I have seen currently.


What do you base that on?
The minimum age girls can get married in Pakistan is 16, and for boys it is 18.

This bill aimed to increase it to 18 for girls, and it also was supposed to punish anyone harshly who was caught marrying their children. While it's pathetic it was rejected, it's not like it's legal for kids to get married there.
Reply 35
Sometimes I feel ashamed to be Muslim ¬_¬
Reply 36
Original post by Danny McCoyne
Why are the West trying to impose their rules on other countries?

Child marriages are a cultural thing - just because it's different to West's tradition.


Are you really defending marrying children?

Posted from TSR Mobile
Reply 37
Original post by simon_g
yet, if you state that he was in fact a paedophile you may get a warning because of some idiots.
The use of the word "paedophile" is introducing 21st century context to 7th century behaviour. I avoid using it because it adds nothing, is deliberately provocative, and often derails discussion that is very difficult for the apologist, allowing them to play the "Islamophobe/bigot" card and consider themselves vindicated.

The whole point of raising the issue of Muhammad's sexual relationship with a child is to highlight the clear contradiction and inconsistency in Islamic doctrine and the nature of Muhammad's "perfect example", not to simply condemn him for a practice that would not necessarily draw censure in 7th century Arabia.

To be accurate, he would be a paedophile now, he was not then. Without Muslims claiming that he was "the best of creation" and the perfect moral and practical example for all humanity, he should be viewed no differently from any other brutal, medieval warlord, behaving the way that brutal, medieval warlords did.
Reply 38
Original post by mil88
Firstly, do you mind providing evidence for the Prophet marrying an female aged 9? (ideally from the Quran)

My prediction is that you're going to using books from 1 sect of the religion, and then claim that this is the true and absolute Islam. Anyway, we'll find out...
No. It is merely accepted by the vast majority of Muslims, so it makes sense to use accepted scriptures of the 90% when discussing a theological issue.

We are discussing the issue on the basis of the evidence of the Sunni sahih hadith. If you reject these as evidence, feel free to start a thread dealing with the issue in the context of Shia scripture.

It's like a Mac user turning up at a class on Microsoft Office for Windows and complaining that everyone is using the wrong operating system.
Reply 39
Original post by Farm_Ecology
Glad you're so open you support rape and pedophilia.

Why does the information have to come from the Quran? Because you already know that she is barely mentioned, and her age isnt specified in the Quran?In any case:s-smilie:ahih al-Bukhari (5:58:234, 5:58:236, 7:62:64, 7:62:65, 7:62:88)
Sahih Muslim (8:3309, 8:3310, 8:3311, 41:4915)
Sunan Abu Dawood, (41:4917)
Mil88 is a Shia and thus rejects the contents of sahih hadith like Bukhari and Muslim, as lies.

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