British schoolgirls who fled to join Isis in Raqqa are feared dead
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Let this be an example to other "stupid schoolgirls" (
) who want to join ISIS. Rot in hell.
) who want to join ISIS. Rot in hell.
Original post by The Epicurean
Where have I absolved people of their crimes? Point me to a post where I have defended ISIS for example. I am criticising the fact that people, especially young people, are getting radicalised in our country.
You are saying societies failed them . Excusing their actions and placing the blame onto others. Its wrong on every level
Original post by The Epicurean
So now you realise it is a problem? So, should we try and come up with solution, or simply do nothing? Surely you would opt for the former? I've offered some ideas which you have responded to further down in this post I am replying to. Is that not better than simply brushing it off and saying "not our problem"?
I realised there was a problem and we were sailing towards an iceberg long before media and politicians did. We can simultaneously try to eradicate this behaviour and ideas without absolving people of the responsibilities of their own actions.
Original post by The Epicurean
Please point out where I said it was specifically the governments issue? I have not said the word "government" once in this thread. I have said "It is our problem" and "as a society." It is a much bigger issue than simply the government, hence why I mentioned Muslim leaders and Mosques having an important role to play.
Thats even worse. Unless by society you mean muslims?
Original post by The Epicurean
Still more than you have offered.
Im not the one saying society isn't doing enough and looking to blame others lmao. Im the one who has been warning for years that non insignificant numbers of Muslims are not assimilating to our culture. You are so quick to lay the blame and offer up nothing in terms of society should be doing so that you do not blame them. Bizarre
Original post by The Epicurean
I never said the government can prevent every single person from doing such things. But we are talking about hundreds of individuals, many of whom pose a thread to our security.
Hundreds out of millions. How many have been caught? How many have been de radicilised? To act like nothing is being done and they are poor victims in the hands of a few baddies if wrong.
Original post by The Epicurean
I'm going to have to ask you to elaborate. What is you understanding here? Because I hope you realise I am not advocating the banning of all funding of mosques?
My understanding is Saudi Arabia exports its Waahibism by funding mosques (They negelected to help the migrant waves but did offer to build 200 mosques in Germany)
Original post by The Epicurean
I didn't take it out of context. If I cut and paste the bold and posted that only, then yes, that would be out of context. I highlighted the bold because of the irony. But the context is still there to be read. You list a load of reasons as to why you should be differentiated from ISIS, and thankfully criticise some awful practices, only then to go on about how actually you do disregard some human lives. Like I said, the disregard of human lives is the issue. And as you have just said, you do disregard some human lives.
No no no no. That you had the audacity to actually just bolden the words without the boldening the rest of the sentence is incredible. Yes i disregard human lives that willfully commit atrocities. That does not mean i disregard human lives like ISIS. It means i have disregard to people who commit brutal atrocities. Very simple and somehow trying to compare me to ISIS is mind blowingly stupid.
Original post by The Epicurean
In the UK, capital punishment is no longer practised. Why? Because it is barbaric and medieval like ISIS. Just because ISIS disregard human lives and use capital punishment, doesn't mean we should too. Why should we stoop down to their level?
But taking away peoples liberty and throwing them in a 6x8 cage to live the rest of their lives is great. The only issue with the death penalty is that its permanent. Convict the wrong person and there is zero recourse. There is nothing barbaric about putting somebody to sleep with drugs
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by khanpatel321
I guess you guys also have no sympathy for girls who get groomed and sexually assaulted by men?
It's all their fault right?
It's all their fault right?
Are these men on the news at 10 every night and in the papers every day hacking away at innocent peoples limbs?
Do these groomers post videos of their sex crimes before telling people to come join them on another continent?
Cool comparison Einstein. Super smart brain you got there
I do find it genuinely sad rather than seeing it as this case of poetic justice, they are just school girls who suffered a terrible thing and who were probably brainwashed even while they lived in the UK.
With 72 male virgins, you could start your own professional World of Warcraft clan.
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
There's more to life than sex smh.
Althoughhh I wouldn't mind Douglas Booth
Althoughhh I wouldn't mind Douglas Booth
With 72 male virgins, you could start your own professional World of Warcraft clan.
They choose their sides. They rather abandon their home country and attempt to aid the enemy with harming their own people. By the time they realize they won't be aiding with killing innocent people, but used as sex slaves they'll try to come back. I'm sure leaving their home country to be sex slaves is so much better than living their humdrum lives. If you know what ISIS is capable of and aware of the evil crimes they did, why take the next airplane to get to ISIS and especially if you're female? I'm not British but this is exactly how I feel about Americans who do this. You do not want a person who fled the country to join ISIS back.
Good riddance.
Moving on.....
Moving on.....
Original post by khanpatel321
I guess you guys also have no sympathy for girls who get groomed and sexually assaulted by men?
It's all their fault right?
It's all their fault right?
it is their fault, they had a family, they lived in a house, they were fed, but they left to join ISIS in a war torn hell of a country, and they know with the reputation ISIS gives their women they should know it was wrong.
3 fewer ISIS supporters so that is a result. Just because they are young and female does not mean they were brainwashed. We don't really know the reason why they went to ISIS but they weren't stupid. They managed to fly to Turkey then arranged to get into Syria. That takes a lot of planning and determination, it did not happen by accident.
I feel sorry for their families, as a parent, I would be devastated if any of my kids were hurt let alone killed. Its a reminder all parents have a duty to try harder to protect their kids whether its from ISIS, drugs or alcohol.
I feel sorry for their families, as a parent, I would be devastated if any of my kids were hurt let alone killed. Its a reminder all parents have a duty to try harder to protect their kids whether its from ISIS, drugs or alcohol.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
You are saying societies failed them . Excusing their actions and placing the blame onto others. Its wrong on every level
You can choose to simplify issues and solely blame the teenagers. I would rather take account of the multiple factors at play such as radical preachers, Islamism, indoctrination of children etc...It is only if we tackle these other issues that we can actually bring about change.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
I realised there was a problem and we were sailing towards an iceberg long before media and politicians did. We can simultaneously try to eradicate this behaviour and ideas without absolving people of the responsibilities of their own actions.
What problem? What iceberg? Talk about vague.
As of yet, we have no evidence that these girls have committed any crime, other that leaving the UK for Syria. So first of all, explain what crime I am absolving them of? Secondly, we could be talking here of years of indoctrination that started in childhood. If this is the case, then this is a huge issue that needs to be taken into account.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Thats even worse. Unless by society you mean muslims?
Saying there are multiple factors at play is "worse"? No, not just Muslims. Though the Muslim community does need to do more to tackle issues of Islamism and radicalism and such.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
'm not the one saying society isn't doing enough and looking to blame others lmao. Im the one who has been warning for years that non insignificant numbers of Muslims are not assimilating to our culture. You are so quick to lay the blame and offer up nothing in terms of society should be doing so that you do not blame them. Bizarre
What crime have the girls committed over than being most likely being indoctrinated?
Wanting to tackle issues such as Islamism is nothing? Wanting stricter measures in regards foreign funding of Mosques is nothing? We could just blame solely the young teenage girls and say they deserved to die as so many people in this thread have done.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Hundreds out of millions. How many have been caught? How many have been de radicilised? To act like nothing is being done and they are poor victims in the hands of a few baddies if wrong.
Hundreds of potential terrorists. It doesn't require millions to initiate a terrorist attack.
I never said nothing is being done. Not once did I say that. But rather I said, people are slipping through the system and obviously we aren't doing enough if that is happening.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
My understanding is Saudi Arabia exports its Waahibism by funding mosques (They negelected to help the migrant waves but did offer to build 200 mosques in Germany)
Indeed.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
No no no no. That you had the audacity to actually just bolden the words without the boldening the rest of the sentence is incredible. Yes i disregard human lives that willfully commit atrocities. That does not mean i disregard human lives like ISIS. It means i have disregard to people who commit brutal atrocities. Very simple and somehow trying to compare me to ISIS is mind blowingly stupid.
No. You listed a loan of reasons why you shouldn't be compared to ISIS, only to then say, but actually I do actually disregard some human lives. That includes a disregard for naive young girls who were mostly liked indoctrinated.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
But taking away peoples liberty and throwing them in a 6x8 cage to live the rest of their lives is great. The only issue with the death penalty is that its permanent. Convict the wrong person and there is zero recourse. There is nothing barbaric about putting somebody to sleep with drugs
Never said incarceration was great. I've criticised it many times on TSR. But at least with incarceration, there is the ability to free the person if we later finder out that they weren't guilty of the crime, which isn't the case with the death penalty.
Incarceration merely takes people out of the world, locks them away from real life and keep them secluded in an artificial environment. They are told when to wake up, eat, exercise, sleep. They are completely separated from the opposite sex. They mix with other criminals, often the worse criminals act as a bad influence upon the lesser criminals. When these prisoners leave prison, they lose the structure and no longer have someone to tell them what to do and when to do it and feel lost. They are confronted with the opposite sex who they have been separated with for so long that they are almost like another species. And worst of all, they are often psychologically affected by their experience in prison and come out as worse criminals than when they went in. Thus we see these people are often unable to fit back into ordinary life and soon enter back into the prison system. So I am willing to acknowledge that incarceration is faulty at best.
Original post by SonOfTheGun
I do find it genuinely sad rather than seeing it as this case of poetic justice, they are just school girls who suffered a terrible thing and who were probably brainwashed even while they lived in the UK.
With 72 male virgins, you could start your own professional World of Warcraft clan.
With 72 male virgins, you could start your own professional World of Warcraft clan.
Oh god yes.. I'd slay
Original post by Sgt_Haytham
They are far more than "stupid schoolgirls" - they're beyond that point.
A stupid schoolgirl will get pregnant at 15-16. A stupid schoolgirl will not do her homework and fail her exams.
They knew what ISIS stands for, what it does to women, what it does to gays and disabled children. Mainstream media, for the last couple years, has be full of pictures of how dire IS actually is.
**** me if you think they're simply "stupid schoolgirls"... how outrageous.
A stupid schoolgirl will get pregnant at 15-16. A stupid schoolgirl will not do her homework and fail her exams.
They knew what ISIS stands for, what it does to women, what it does to gays and disabled children. Mainstream media, for the last couple years, has be full of pictures of how dire IS actually is.
**** me if you think they're simply "stupid schoolgirls"... how outrageous.
Wanted to say worse but the filter would've come on..
Original post by MrsSheldonCooper
Oh god yes.. I'd slay
Your reward ma'am
Original post by The Epicurean
You can choose to simplify issues and solely blame the teenagers. I would rather take account of the multiple factors at play such as radical preachers, Islamism, indoctrination of children etc...It is only if we tackle these other issues that we can actually bring about change.
You are the sort of person who finds excuses for any undesirable behaviour and humans. "Yeah he did rape her but he was drunk!" "Yeah he stabbed that teenager for his bike but he came from a broken home!"
You are doing IT AGAIN - You say society isnt doing enough.. How does society do more to stop parents from indoctrinating their children with hate? Stop muslims having children? Cameras and microphones in Muslims homes?
Original post by The Epicurean
What problem? What iceberg? Talk about vague.
Mass rape - Hatred for the west - Poor assimilation and insular communities - Honor killings - Child marriages / forced marriages - Thousands of Britains wanting to massacre fellow British citizens who are not muslim
Original post by The Epicurean
As of yet, we have no evidence that these girls have committed any crime, other that leaving the UK for Syria. So first of all, explain what crime I am absolving them of? Secondly, we could be talking here of years of indoctrination that started in childhood. If this is the case, then this is a huge issue that needs to be taken into account.
Nah we do - Joining a terrorist organisation is a crime. They have likely posted on social media snaps of themselves with guns and severed heads as many do who go over there
Original post by The Epicurean
Wanting to tackle issues such as Islamism is nothing? Wanting stricter measures in regards foreign funding of Mosques is nothing? We could just blame solely the young teenage girls and say they deserved to die as so many people in this thread have done.
Or we could be realistic and say the horse has bolted - We will continue to try and win the propaganda war and try to prevent our muslim citizens from wanting to behead aid workers and massacre their fellow countrymen but when one invitably slips through the cracks, we will not absolve them of their actions and blame ourselves for their heinous actions
Original post by The Epicurean
Hundreds of potential terrorists. It doesn't require millions to initiate a terrorist attack.
I never said nothing is being done. Not once did I say that. But rather I said, people are slipping through the system and obviously we aren't doing enough if that is happening.
I never said nothing is being done. Not once did I say that. But rather I said, people are slipping through the system and obviously we aren't doing enough if that is happening.
Its not obvious at all, You are living in some bizarre fantasy land where you think that without 100% success rate we are not doing enough. Its ludicrous thinking
Original post by The Epicurean
No. You listed a loan of reasons why you shouldn't be compared to ISIS, only to then say, but actually I do actually disregard some human lives. That includes a disregard for naive young girls who were mostly liked indoctrinated.
So you still maintain that because i do not value the lives of ISIS members who volunarily choose to commit the most heinous crimes against humanity that would make our ancient ancestors shudder, that i am as bad as ISIS members?
Good to know you have got my back if i decide to carry out some rape Jihad or butcher some children.
Original post by The Epicurean
Never said incarceration was great. I've criticised it many times on TSR. But at least with incarceration, there is the ability to free the person if we later finder out that they weren't guilty of the crime, which isn't the case with the death penalty.
Which is exactly what i said. Are you on drugs? This conversation is rapidly becoming tedious, round and round in circles
Its very simple - You say society failed the girls therefore its not ok to welcome their deaths. You cannot offer anything as to why its societies fault and what more we should be doing that would prevent all muslims from wanting to join ISIS
Until you can tell me why Society failed these girls we are going to go around in circles
(edited 8 years ago)
Hey, if 15 years old are expected to take responsibility for their actions, why not the consequences of fleeing their safe country to possibly becoming sex slaves? Were they toddlers lured away by ISIS with the promise of candy? They don't "deserve" to die but hey accept the consequences, right?
Teens are expected to take responsibility for pregnancy, education, and basic responsibility of life but when 15 years old flee to country to murder their own citizens, oh no!
They're babies and had no clue of the rape, and murder ISIS does everyday. Does that make sense, lol?
Teens are expected to take responsibility for pregnancy, education, and basic responsibility of life but when 15 years old flee to country to murder their own citizens, oh no!
They're babies and had no clue of the rape, and murder ISIS does everyday. Does that make sense, lol?
(edited 8 years ago)
C'mon people, all we seem to know is that contact has been lost and that doesn't necessarily mean they are dead.
Maybe they have had their gadgets confiscated, the bad guys don't like them making contact with the western world and all that... There could well be other reasons and it is amazing how well a speculative thought travels...
Who is supposed to have killed them anyway?
Maybe they have had their gadgets confiscated, the bad guys don't like them making contact with the western world and all that... There could well be other reasons and it is amazing how well a speculative thought travels...
Who is supposed to have killed them anyway?
Original post by zhog
Who is supposed to have killed them anyway?
Who is supposed to have killed them anyway?
Russians, Americans, British, French, Australians, Syrians, Iraqis, Saudis, Jordanians and probably a few more.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
You are the sort of person who finds excuses for any undesirable behaviour and humans. "Yeah he did rape her but he was drunk!" "Yeah he stabbed that teenager for his bike but he came from a broken home!"
I understand that any situation is far more complex that it appears at first sight. Which is the reason the “war on drugs” in America has failed for example. If you don’t address the root problems, you never solve the problem. That is why despite having the death penalty in America for certain crimes, those crimes still are perpetrated.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
You are doing IT AGAIN - You say society isnt doing enough.. How does society do more to stop parents from indoctrinating their children with hate? Stop muslims having children? Cameras and microphones in Muslims homes?
How can we as a society prevent childhood obesity? How can we as a society stop children smoking? These are all questions that are often asked. In this case, replace childhood obesity with childhood indoctrination. Like I said, education is one factor. Another is for Muslim community leaders and those who take a leading role in mosques to challenge these views. Another is for more people in the wider society to challenge Islamists and their ideology. There are many things we can try to do to in order to prevent further radicalisation.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Mass rape - Hatred for the west - Poor assimilation and insular communities - Honor killings - Child marriages / forced marriages - Thousands of Britains wanting to massacre fellow British citizens who are not muslim
And how do we solve this problem? I’ve not seen you offer a single solution.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Nah we do - Joining a terrorist organisation is a crime. They have likely posted on social media snaps of themselves with guns and severed heads as many do who go over there
Can you show me some evidence that the girls in question have actually held severed heads? Anyway, I doubt they have much freedom to do what they want. I imagine most things they do are under the instructions of other people.
There is no evidence that these girls have killed anyone or committed any such crime. What they have done is be naïve and fled to Syria, which they most likely now regret. It is also questionable to what extent they might have been indoctrinated.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Or we could be realistic and say the horse has bolted - We will continue to try and win the propaganda war and try to prevent our muslim citizens from wanting to behead aid workers and massacre their fellow countrymen but when one invitably slips through the cracks, we will not absolve them of their actions and blame ourselves for their heinous actions
But that is the problem. If someone slips through the cracks, questions must be asked as to how that happened. Why did they slip through the cracks? For example, if a house has burned down, we don’t shrug our shoulders after the fire has been put out, but rather investigate how the fire started. What caused the fire and how can we prevent a similar fire occurring again. One solution is to educate people to prevent such a situation from happening again. Sure the people who started a house fire probably done something silly which resulted in a fire, but their actions can harm other people. Fires can spread. We have a duty to prevent innocent people dying in fires as a result of another person’s foolish actions.
Likewise, when someone becomes radicalised, we have to ask how and why this happened. These radicalised people can harm others. How many attacks have we seen these past years committed by radicalised individuals? How many more innocent people must be killed? If people are slipping through the cracks, we are failing to stop radicalisation. The question must always come back to how and why they became radicalised and what we could have done to prevent it.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Its not obvious at all, You are living in some bizarre fantasy land where you think that without 100% success rate we are not doing enough. Its ludicrous thinking
You live in a bizarre world of complacency where you don’t think we should improve or try better.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
So you still maintain that because i do not value the lives of ISIS members who volunarily choose to commit the most heinous crimes against humanity that would make our ancient ancestors shudder, that i am as bad as ISIS members?
Good to know you have got my back if i decide to carry out some rape Jihad or butcher some children.
Good to know you have got my back if i decide to carry out some rape Jihad or butcher some children.
I regard any disregard of human life as immoral. I asked how I can differentiate you from ISIS when you disregard human lives. Your response was to say that you do disregard some human lives.
Ancient ancestors? Considering the ancient world was probably far more brutal than our modern world, they might not find it such a shock.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Good to know you have got my back if i decide to carry out some rape Jihad or butcher some children.
Well, considering I am opposed to such a disregard of human life, I obviously wouldn’t support such acts. I’m quite clearly opposed to such acts. But I would defend your human rights to a fair trial and I would oppose the death penalty as I don’t support eye for eye morality. I would also question your sanity and would consider whether you might actually need to go to a psychiatric ward as normal people do not carry out such crimes against humanity with such nonchalance. I would also ask how somebody could commit such crimes and whether we could have prevented such an incident from happening. Maybe you should have been receiving psychiatric treatment long ago. If you slipped through the cracks, we have failed, and thus many people have had to suffer.
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Which is exactly what i said. Are you on drugs? This conversation is rapidly becoming tedious, round and round in circles
With comments such as “long before it had likely even entered the universe of your mind”, you would seem to think I am an imbecile. Then you also made the remark “But taking away peoples liberty and throwing them in a 6x8 cage to live the rest of their lives is great.”
Based on your previous comments, I felt it necessarily to inform you that I am fully aware of the problems of incarceration and that such thoughts have already permeated through “the universe of my mind.”
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Its very simple - You say society failed the girls therefore its not ok to welcome their deaths. You cannot offer anything as to why its societies fault and what more we should be doing that would prevent all muslims from wanting to join ISIS
I have stated a number of reasons. But you don’t accept those reasons. I have mentioned some actions that can be taken, but you don’t accept those actions. You surely recognise there is a problem with radicalisation. What do you think is the solution? Afterall, you have already stated how you are light years ahead of everyone else. Surely you must have something to contribute?
Original post by Betelgeuse-
Until you can tell me why Society failed these girls we are going to go around in circles
I have offered reasons, but you don’t accept them. You don’t have to accept my reasons. That’s fine, I don’t expect everyone to agree with me. But to ask me to present reasons when I have already presented reasons will only lead to a circular debate. It reminds me of Richard Dawkins debating a creationist where he showed her evidence, yet she kept saying “show me the evidence.”
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