More sex assaults on women in Germany
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Original post by Josb
What do you suggest then?
Have you read my posts above that one you replied to ? It's not simple, but there needs to be a proper process and strategy which goes from vetting and interviewing families, ascertaining what they have lost in the situation/what they did before their lives were ripped apart, ensuring that once families are accepted there is a proper plan as to where they will be located- not just Germany but X town in Germany, proper funding for their journey and integration into European life including education on European culture- including the treatment of women and how they aren't second class citizens like they sometimes are in the ME- and how they dress here- education on alcohol consumption if they live in a place which strictly prohibits it, funding for language lessons, ensuring they can get work.
I mean this is not easy and not simple and takes a lot of time. Just because Germany has handled it so poorly that is no reason to say 'right no more Syrians or refugees ever'. There are genuine people who need refuge and our help.
But we need to recognise the problems and difficulties of accepting a load of refugees without any proper control and how that impacts the natives. For example in Germany it's really affecting the local population because women are being assaulted and raped.
The solution isn't to ban them all nor is to let everyone in. It's got to be well strategised and well funded otherwise the problems will intensify. Especially if, we feel more fear to Muslims because of this and as a result they feel oppression. The feeling of oppression is the precursor to radicalisation and that will play into the growing problem of Isis et al.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by QE2
In which case, they are economic migrants, not refugees fleeing danger.
It's not that simple.
Original post by Johann von Gauss
They make the dangerous journey to Europe so that they can find a job, and send money back to support their families
They did not 'abandon' them
They did not 'abandon' them
Thats why they end up at Germany/Sweden/Dermark which gives them the most state welfare
Original post by EtherealNymph22
Have you read my posts above that one you replied to ? It's not simple, but there needs to be a proper process and strategy which goes from vetting and interviewing families, ascertaining what they have lost in the situation/what they did before their lives were ripped apart, ensuring that once families are accepted there is a proper plan as to where they will be located- not just Germany but X town in Germany, proper funding for their journey and integration into European life including education on European culture- including the treatment of women and how they aren't second class citizens like they sometimes are in the ME- and how they dress here- education on alcohol consumption if they live in a place which strictly prohibits it, funding for language lessons, ensuring they can get work.
I mean this is not easy and not simple and takes a lot of time. Just because Germany has handled it so poorly that is no reason to say 'right no more Syrians or refugees ever'. There are genuine people who need refuge and our help.
But we need to recognise the problems and difficulties of accepting a load of refugees without any proper control and how that impacts the natives. For example in Germany it's really affecting the local population because women are being assaulted and raped.
The solution isn't to ban them all nor is to let everyone in. It's got to be well strategised and well funded otherwise the problems will intensify. Especially if, we feel more fear to Muslims because of this and as a result they feel oppression. The feeling of a oppression is the precursor to radicalisation and that will play into the growing problem of Isis et al.
I mean this is not easy and not simple and takes a lot of time. Just because Germany has handled it so poorly that is no reason to say 'right no more Syrians or refugees ever'. There are genuine people who need refuge and our help.
But we need to recognise the problems and difficulties of accepting a load of refugees without any proper control and how that impacts the natives. For example in Germany it's really affecting the local population because women are being assaulted and raped.
The solution isn't to ban them all nor is to let everyone in. It's got to be well strategised and well funded otherwise the problems will intensify. Especially if, we feel more fear to Muslims because of this and as a result they feel oppression. The feeling of a oppression is the precursor to radicalisation and that will play into the growing problem of Isis et al.
1.Any idea of the cost of such measures? Why should we spend so much money on people that aren't needed and not on natives?
2. Most refugees are not "families", but young men. What do you do when they are denied asylum? Do you think we can send them back to their country? Once they have arrived they cannot be deported to a warzone.
3. I propose: only accept women, children and known human right activists.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Josb
1.Any idea of the cost of such measures. Why should we spend so much money on people that aren't needed and not on natives?
2. Most refugees are not "families", but young men. What do you do when they are denied asylum? Do you think we can send them back to their country? Once they have arrived they cannot be deported to a warzone.
2. Most refugees are not "families", but young men. What do you do when they are denied asylum? Do you think we can send them back to their country? Once they have arrived they cannot be deported to a warzone.
1. We spend money on foreign policy all of the time. We spend money on giving aid. We have joined, with the coalition, to bomb in Syria and Iraq. That strategy also costs money and needs to be augmented with dealing with the consequence of that decision. Part of that consequence is Syrian people losing their homes and livelihood due to war. The least we can do is to help the innocent people affected by this to have a right to a life again. The logic of bombing them and spending money on that is to reduce the risk of Isis. But do you know what the biggest risk to Isis is? Losing support of their ideology from muslims and numbers. Isis were horrified at Germany and Europe opening their arms to Muslims because it tampers with their black and white world view that it's us and them. If we don't help the people who are suffering we run the risk of them turning to extremism and radicalisation, which guess what? Is a threat to all of us through acts of terrorism. This is why bombing without strategy, ironically plays into the hands of Isis etc.
2. My whole suggestion is based around the vetting process occurring before they move to Germany/Europe. not them getting here and then dealing with it.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by EtherealNymph22
That's not the compromise I'm suggesting. Not all refugees are barbarians. Pls, think.
When you live in an echo chamber, it's hard to hear anything outside of what you've been told. Don't be too hard on him. It happens on both sides of the political spectrum.
The problem with stopping these sorts of offenses is that it's very difficult; There is a massive cultural divide and it is not reasonable to believe if someone comes from a culture where any woman walking by herself at night is fair game that they will instantly become a westernized liberal the moment they cross the border.
That said, how do we fix it? Do we block all borders, knowing that the various countries are desperate for young people to help shore up failing health care? Do we allow everyone in, knowing that these issues will and have occurred? How do we vet these people?
The safest way to handle this is to only allow the most vulnerable: Children, women and families in that order. However, given that the overwhelming majority of refugees are single men, what do we do with the remainder? Can we safely welcome them in? How do we integrate them?
Ignoring race, war-torn countries rarely have the infrastructure to provide useful schooling and skills to their populace. Not only that, but they usually don't have the education to provide the basis to allow these now-adult men and women to learn the skills when they come here. This usually dooms them to low-income jobs and poverty.
With very little money, their choices of where to settle are limited. This contributes to a kind of self-segregation where they congregate in low-income areas, creating ghettoization and stopping effective integration.
A ghettoized populace then has a tendency towards generational poverty(Which you will see if you look in the UK regardless of race.)
When you have ghettos, generational poverty and lack of integration, you have increased crime. This is true everywhere regardless of race.
That leads to the question: How do you encourage integration? How do you stop self-segregation without removing the rights and privileges of being a liberal western society? Regardless of race, how do you overcome generational poverty? We haven't figured that out for Britons and I don't know of any place in the world that has figured out an effective way to combat generational poverty.
That doesn't mean there isn't an answer; It just means I don't have the intelligence or wisdom to come up with one. It's a tricky question with no clearcut solution.
Original post by ThatOldGuy.
Spoiler
Nice post. I agree with you. Have you seen my posts in the thread about potential ways to achieve a solution on this?
The bottom line is it's hugely complex and difficult to work out the best way to deal with the situation. But to categorise the options into a) close the borders completely or b) let everyone come uncontrolledly, is so naive and I find it frustrating that this becomes about 'lefties' vs right wing when people should think about a real solution.
And I love your thought provoking questions. This situation indeed throws up more questions than it does answers. Before we focus on a solution we need to figure out all the questions and how to solve them individually.
(edited 8 years ago)
What I find most worrying is the prospect that people will just get used to this new reality and gradually sleepwalk into a situation where the position of women and other groups' liberties gets subtly and incrementally restricted and diminished until freedom as we know it today is completely gone. Who remembers today that Iranian women up until the 70s (i.e. before the Islamic revolution) were walking around in killer heels and sky-high mini-skirts and enjoyed unrestricted and unsegregated education in their own country?
It is wrong to say that radical Islam and cultures who interfere with individual rights are simply backwards and will "catch up" with the rest of the world over time. This is not about time or progress - it is a matter of ever present, different and dangerous values that the western world should be constantly vigilant of.
It is wrong to say that radical Islam and cultures who interfere with individual rights are simply backwards and will "catch up" with the rest of the world over time. This is not about time or progress - it is a matter of ever present, different and dangerous values that the western world should be constantly vigilant of.
Original post by TunaTunnel
Thats why they end up at Germany/Sweden/Dermark which gives them the most state welfare
I disagree with the labelling of the Syrian refugees who cross the Mediterranean to Europe as 'economic migrants'. I see many people saying things like "Why can't they just stay in Turkey,Lebanon etc', but I don't think people realise the awful conditions that they're subjected to in those countries. Those in refugee camps face absolute poverty, many-even those who have degrees and were highly qualified in their country, are unable to find good work and as a result find themselves being unable to provide for their families. I know that Lebanon and the other countries have been building new schools for the refugee children, but despite this many are still out of school. Also, discrimination against them is becoming more and more common. The truth of the matter is that refugees have no future in those countries. Some of those countries have laws that mean that non-citizens cannot work, cannot attend universities,own houses etc.. You cannot blame them for wanting to make it to Europe,where they can live a much better standard of life. It's not like they're living a decent life in the 'safe' ME countries, and then choose to come to Europe.
Many of the men come first to Europe with the hope of bringing their families over once things are sorted out, so ofc they're going to go countries that have more migrant friendly policies..
Having said that, I am shocked and disgusted by the behaviour of a minority of those refugees in countries like Germany,Sweden.. but I don't think that the solution is to close all borders.
Original post by childofthesun
I disagree with the labelling of the Syrian refugees who cross the Mediterranean to Europe as 'economic migrants'. I see many people saying things like "Why can't they just stay in Turkey,Lebanon etc', but I don't think people realise the awful conditions that they're subjected to in those countries. Those in refugee camps face absolute poverty, many-even those who have degrees and were highly qualified in their country, are unable to find good work and as a result find themselves being unable to provide for their families. I know that Lebanon and the other countries have been building new schools for the refugee children, but despite this many are still out of school. Also, discrimination against them is becoming more and more common. The truth of the matter is that refugees have no future in those countries. Some of those countries have laws that mean that non-citizens cannot work, cannot attend universities,own houses etc.. You cannot blame them for wanting to make it to Europe,where they can live a much better standard of life. It's not like they're living a decent life in the 'safe' ME countries, and then choose to come to Europe.
Many of the men come first to Europe with the hope of bringing their families over once things are sorted out, so ofc they're going to go countries that have more migrant friendly policies..
Having said that, I am shocked and disgusted by the behaviour of a minority of those refugees in countries like Germany,Sweden.. but I don't think that the solution is to close all borders.
Many of the men come first to Europe with the hope of bringing their families over once things are sorted out, so ofc they're going to go countries that have more migrant friendly policies..
Having said that, I am shocked and disgusted by the behaviour of a minority of those refugees in countries like Germany,Sweden.. but I don't think that the solution is to close all borders.
Its not really a minority though. Teenage girls are too scared to leave the house now
Which when translated
Spoiler
Original post by EtherealNymph22
1. We spend money on foreign policy all of the time. We spend money on giving aid. We have joined, with the coalition, to bomb in Syria and Iraq. That strategy also costs money and needs to be augmented with dealing with the consequence of that decision. Part of that consequence is Syrian people losing their homes and livelihood due to war. The least we can do is to help the innocent people affected by this to have a right to a life again. The logic of bombing them and spending money on that is to reduce the risk of Isis. But do you know what the biggest risk to Isis is? Losing support of their ideology from muslims and numbers. Isis were horrified at Germany and Europe opening their arms to Muslims because it tampers with their black and white world view that it's us and them. If we don't help the people who are suffering we run the risk of them turning to extremism and radicalisation, which guess what? Is a threat to all of us through acts of terrorism. This is why bombing without strategy, ironically plays into the hands of Isis etc.
2. My whole suggestion is based around the vetting process occurring before they move to Germany/Europe. not them getting here and then dealing with it.
2. My whole suggestion is based around the vetting process occurring before they move to Germany/Europe. not them getting here and then dealing with it.
a. How do you know they are innocent? Many people have come here to start a new life because they had been convicted at home. They destroy their papers and claim to be Syrians. "Vetting" immigrants with false papers is extremely difficult when they come from stateless areas.
b. Germany has scheduled to spend €17 billion on refugees this year.
This is the equivalent of a £6,500 grant for 2,000,000 students. This is also much more than what the coalition have spent bombing Syria. This money would have been enough to re-build a good part of Syria.
Money doesn't grow on the trees, you have to use it efficiently. Germany has made a terrible choice and is going to spend a fortune to integrate all these refugees, with mixed results to say the least. This money would been better spent on refugee camps around Syria; it would have been cheaper, less dangerous for us, with fewer long lasting consequences on our societies.
Importing low-skilled migrants from backward cultures, then housing, feeding, educating them from scratch is just madness. I would prefer to see this money spent on natives.
c. Syria was already destroyed before we started to (coyly) bomb them. Saying the refugees come here because their country have been destroyed by the coalition is ridiculous. They come here because they have been told that they will all receive benefits and that white women can be shagged for free.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Josb
a. How do you know they are innocent? Many people have come here to start a new life because they had been convicted at home. They destroy their papers and claim to be Syrians. "Vetting" immigrants with false papers is extremely difficult when they come from stateless areas.
b. Germany has scheduled to spend €17 billion on refugees this year.
This is the equivalent of a £6,500 grant for 2,000,000 students. This is also much more than what the coalition have spent bombing Syria. This money would have been enough to re-build a good part of Syria.
Money doesn't grow on the trees, you have to use it efficiently. Germany has made a terrible choice and is going to spend a fortune to integrate all these refugees, with mixed results to say the least. This money would been better spent on refugee camps around Syria; it would have been cheaper, less dangerous for us, with fewer long lasting consequences on our societies.
Importing low-skilled migrants from backward cultures, then housing, feeding, educating them from scratch is just madness. I would prefer to see this money spent on natives.
c. Syria was already destroyed before we started to (coyly) bomb them. Saying the refugees come here because their country have been destroyed by the coalition is ridiculous. They come here because they have been told that they will all receive benefits and that white women can be shagged for free.
b. Germany has scheduled to spend €17 billion on refugees this year.
This is the equivalent of a £6,500 grant for 2,000,000 students. This is also much more than what the coalition have spent bombing Syria. This money would have been enough to re-build a good part of Syria.
Money doesn't grow on the trees, you have to use it efficiently. Germany has made a terrible choice and is going to spend a fortune to integrate all these refugees, with mixed results to say the least. This money would been better spent on refugee camps around Syria; it would have been cheaper, less dangerous for us, with fewer long lasting consequences on our societies.
Importing low-skilled migrants from backward cultures, then housing, feeding, educating them from scratch is just madness. I would prefer to see this money spent on natives.
c. Syria was already destroyed before we started to (coyly) bomb them. Saying the refugees come here because their country have been destroyed by the coalition is ridiculous. They come here because they have been told that they will all receive benefits and that white women can be shagged for free.
I didnt say that the country has been destroyed by the coalition. But bombing is contributing to the destruction, as is Assad and Isis and lots of other reasons. Please don't take my posts out of context and make sweeping statements.
It's not about how much each thing costs, it's about doing the right thing to protect ourselves and do the right thing for humanity. The best way to help support Isis is to leave people with no other alternative and to oppress them by stereotyping them as all coming here for benefits and 'shagging white women'. So congrats on your part of playing into their world view and not being a bigger person about it.
Original post by Lacesso
I'm sure Merkel was horrified.
Oh wait, she sees none of this. And none of them.
Oh wait, she sees none of this. And none of them.
Merkel has her own private swimming pools and hot tub
Original post by childofthesun
It's not that simple.
Original post by childofthesun
I disagree with the labelling of the Syrian refugees who cross the Mediterranean to Europe as 'economic migrants'. I see many people saying things like "Why can't they just stay in Turkey,Lebanon etc', but I don't think people realise the awful conditions that they're subjected to in those countries. Those in refugee camps face absolute poverty, many-even those who have degrees and were highly qualified in their country, are unable to find good work and as a result find themselves being unable to provide for their families. I know that Lebanon and the other countries have been building new schools for the refugee children, but despite this many are still out of school. Also, discrimination against them is becoming more and more common. The truth of the matter is that refugees have no future in those countries. Some of those countries have laws that mean that non-citizens cannot work, cannot attend universities,own houses etc.. You cannot blame them for wanting to make it to Europe,where they can live a much better standard of life. It's not like they're living a decent life in the 'safe' ME countries, and then choose to come to Europe.
Many of the men come first to Europe with the hope of bringing their families over once things are sorted out, so ofc they're going to go countries that have more migrant friendly policies..
Having said that, I am shocked and disgusted by the behaviour of a minority of those refugees in countries like Germany,Sweden.. but I don't think that the solution is to close all borders.
Many of the men come first to Europe with the hope of bringing their families over once things are sorted out, so ofc they're going to go countries that have more migrant friendly policies..
Having said that, I am shocked and disgusted by the behaviour of a minority of those refugees in countries like Germany,Sweden.. but I don't think that the solution is to close all borders.
I dont think anybody is blaming these migrants for going to high welfare states ike Germany and Sweden, who wouldnt want free house, free car, free healthcare, free education?
The people are angry at the EU and Merkel for inviting them and allowing it
Original post by Yellow 03
What I find most worrying is the prospect that people will just get used to this new reality and gradually sleepwalk into a situation where the position of women and other groups' liberties gets subtly and incrementally restricted and diminished until freedom as we know it today is completely gone. Who remembers today that Iranian women up until the 70s (i.e. before the Islamic revolution) were walking around in killer heels and sky-high mini-skirts and enjoyed unrestricted and unsegregated education in their own country?
It is wrong to say that radical Islam and cultures who interfere with individual rights are simply backwards and will "catch up" with the rest of the world over time. This is not about time or progress - it is a matter of ever present, different and dangerous values that the western world should be constantly vigilant of.
It is wrong to say that radical Islam and cultures who interfere with individual rights are simply backwards and will "catch up" with the rest of the world over time. This is not about time or progress - it is a matter of ever present, different and dangerous values that the western world should be constantly vigilant of.
The most striking example is Afghanistan:
Kabul, 1960s:
Spoiler
These pictures make me sad.
Original post by EtherealNymph22
The best way to help support Isis is to leave people with no other alternative and to oppress them by stereotyping them as all coming here for benefits and 'shagging white women'. So congrats on your part of playing into their world view and not being a bigger person about it.
Well, multiple evidences around Europe show that this is what they do and think; you can bury your head deeper in the sand, but it won't make them better.
Original post by Josb
Well, multiple evidences around Europe show that this is what they do and think; you can bury your head deeper in the sand, but it won't make them better.
I'm not doubting that it isn't happening- I know it is. My point of contention is the logic that because a few of them are doing this and every single time it's making the news here through the channels of media it means the majority. It's just being presented like it's a majority. It's naive to lump every Syrian refugee has benefit scrounging rapists when that really isn't the real picture. And a consequence of your naivety is creating the culture of mistrust which leads to oppression and as I've said before, this leads to radicalisation.
If everyone is to be identified with the worst crimes that their race is committing in a variety of contexts then we are all rapists, paedophiles, and murderers
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Aceadria
Î'm guessing it's racist, bigoted, sexist, etc... to lock them up?
Oh yeah because everyone says that about criminals...
Oh wait no sorry it's a (usually right wing) fantasy
Original post by TunaTunnel
Its not really a minority though. Teenage girls are too scared to leave the house now
Which when translated
Which when translated
Spoiler
I can't lie, I did find that a tad dramatic.
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