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What argument do liberals and greens have for not voting for Corbyn?

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Original post by Squirrel777
The liberal democrats are left wing and the sort of policies they desire are what Jeremy Corbyn is offering


Once again, they do not hold a monopoly on liberalism. One can be a liberal without being a Liberal Democrat, either as a term or the party, just as they do not even have to be left wing. Liberalism is defined by ideals, not by a party that takes its name (we'll ignore the actual liberals for the time being.
Original post by TheDefiniteArticle
the absence of a state quickly degenerates into the purest form of capitalism, as does anything which strips back state power (assuming you don't mean 'oh yeah lets add lots of economic regulation but remove the minor state interference in social matters').


Capitalism did not exist for the vast majority of human existence, throughout which humanity lived in stateless societies. Capitalism is only a few centuries old and in that time the state has held the function of protecting, enforcing and/or managing the capitalist system. It is far from the natural order of things.
Original post by Captain Haddock
Capitalism did not exist for the vast majority of human existence, throughout which humanity lived in stateless societies. Capitalism is only a few centuries old and in that time the state has held the function of protecting, enforcing and/or managing the capitalist system. It is far from the natural order of things.


I disagree. Many older societies which seem not to be capitalist due to what actually happened were, since they contained the fundamental elements of non-mandatory distribution of wealth and freedom of contract.
Original post by TheDefiniteArticle
I disagree. Many older societies which seem not to be capitalist due to what actually happened were, since they contained the fundamental elements of non-mandatory distribution of wealth and freedom of contract.


Those are not, by any stretch, the fundamental elements of capitalism. 'Mandatory' wealth redistribution is a way for the state to address the inequalities caused by capitalism, or, as I put it, to 'manage' it. A purely anarchist or communist society would not have such measures, either. The key principals of capitalism are private ownership of land and the means of production, wage labour, and the free market. You could put in an argument for the existence of the free market, but the former two emerged relatively recently in the history of humanity.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Captain Haddock
Those are not, by any stretch, the fundamental elements of capitalism. 'Mandatory' wealth redistribution is a way for the state to address the inequalities caused by capitalism, or, as I put it, to 'manage' it. A purely anarchist or communist society would not have such measures, either. The key principals of capitalism are private ownership of land and the means of production, wage labour, and the free market. You could put in an argument for the existence of the free market, but the former two emerged relatively recently in the history of humanity.


What if I told you we could have a free market without having capitalism?
Original post by James Milibanter
What if I told you we could have a free market without having capitalism?


As a market socialist, I'd give you a high-five.
Original post by The Reality
He is everything you guys want. He is left wing and supports a left wing system of governence. Why would you not vote for him. He voices the same concerns as you people?


You can be left wing and disagree with someone whom is also left wing. If you couldn't there would be no point in the party whips because everyone in the party would automatically vote the same way. You can also have the same concerns as someone but disagree on how to solve it.

Up until recently if I'd disagreed with some of Corbyn's policies, I could acknowledge validity in his arguments and could respect the opinion (something that pretty much never happens when I hear what comes out of Camerons mouth). I can respect questioning the status quo and a lot of what he's done is trying to get more people voting (like PMQs he asks questions the public suggest), that doesn't mean all the left will agree with him. That's like suggesting everyone whose right wing supports Donald Trump.

Then I heard his views on having nuclear subs with no warheards, and his view on Argentina and the Falklands. Baffling views as far as I'm concerned.
This isn't about left wing or right wing. Corbyn is too controversial to gain the support of the public, as many lefties have already said on this thread.
I'll continue to vote SNP. Labour have proven time and time again (especially in Scotland) to say that they will do one thing then do the complete opposite once they get into power. Corbyn seems like a step in the right direction but he is seriously going to have to prove his words before he will win back my vote and I assume the votes of my fellow SNP voters.
Original post by CAElite
I'll continue to vote SNP. Labour have proven time and time again (especially in Scotland) to say that they will do one thing then do the complete opposite once they get into power. Corbyn seems like a step in the right direction but he is seriously going to have to prove his words before he will win back my vote and I assume the votes of my fellow SNP voters.


I agree with Corbyn on very little, but I respect him a lot. Yes, he's very left wing (I'm a tory), yes, he's very controversial, but there's been no signs of his views changing in the last 30 years in order for him to gain power. 30 years ago, he got into office on a set of principles and last year he got to leadership on those same principles. I think it's disgraceful the lack of respect he's got, though I do disagree with him. So to say that he has to "prove his words", just look at his record over the last 30 years.
Original post by Lime-man
I agree with Corbyn on very little, but I respect him a lot. Yes, he's very left wing (I'm a tory), yes, he's very controversial, but there's been no signs of his views changing in the last 30 years in order for him to gain power. 30 years ago, he got into office on a set of principles and last year he got to leadership on those same principles. I think it's disgraceful the lack of respect he's got, though I do disagree with him. So to say that he has to "prove his words", just look at his record over the last 30 years.


I mean labour as a whole, not just their leader. Corbyn is a step in the right direction but he can spout anything and it wont mean anything if he doesnt get the "new labour" right wing under control. Although I must admit I have witnessed him taking steps in that direction, its too early too fully make up my mind for the next UK election yet, pretty much set on who im voting for during the next Scottish election though.
Original post by CAElite
I mean labour as a whole, not just their leader. Corbyn is a step in the right direction but he can spout anything and it wont mean anything if he doesnt get the "new labour" right wing under control. Although I must admit I have witnessed him taking steps in that direction, its too early too fully make up my mind for the next UK election yet, pretty much set on who im voting for during the next Scottish election though.


The New Labour "right wing" is still left wing. The support capitalism as much as your scot nats do.
Original post by Lime-man
The New Labour "right wing" is still left wing. The support capitalism as much as your scot nats do.


Scottish National Party MPs don't abstain from voting against tory cuts
Scottish National Party MPs don't vote for extreme military action
Scottish National Party does not support the actions of war criminals
Scottish National Party MPs do not vote to maintain nuclear weapons in areas against the will of the local electorate.
Scottish National Party is currently the only party pushing for democratic reform in the UK

I don't fully agree with the SNP, they are by no means perfect and their reactionary policies in Holyrood are a blight on Scotland but until labour makes some serious changes I will continue voting for them as I still believe they are the lesser evil.

In all honesty if it wasn't for their party being in shambles after the previous coalition I would vote Lib Dem. I support libertarian freedoms before left wing economics. But as it stands at the moment a vote for Lib Dem is a wasted vote, especially up here.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by CAElite
Scottish National Party MPs don't abstain from voting against tory cuts
Scottish National Party MPs don't vote for extreme military action
Scottish National Party does not support the actions of war criminals
Scottish National Party MPs do not vote to maintain nuclear weapons in areas against the will of the local electorate.
Scottish National Party is currently the only party pushing for democratic reform in the UK

I don't fully agree with the SNP, they are by no means perfect and their reactionary policies in Holyrood are a blight on Scotland but until labour makes some serious changes I will continue voting for them as I still believe they are the lesser evil.

In all honesty if it wasn't for their party being in shambles after the previous coalition I would vote Lib Dem. I support libertarian freedoms before left wing economics. But as it stands at the moment a vote for Lib Dem is a wasted vote, especially up here.


You should vote Tory. Ruth Davidson is a brilliant Tory and one of my favourites in all honesty.
Original post by Lime-man
You should vote Tory. Ruth Davidson is a brilliant Tory and one of my favourites in all honesty.


You taking the mick?
Original post by CAElite
You taking the mick?


Not at all, her policy on lowering business rates to raise the minimum wage was a very sensible, pragmatic and one-nation policy. One-nationism is about the UK, and all of its inhabitants working together.
Original post by Lime-man
Not at all, her policy on lowering business rates to raise the minimum wage was a very sensible, pragmatic and one-nation policy. One-nationism is about the UK, and all of its inhabitants working together.


I dont know what part of my previous posts would imply that I would ever consider voting tory (Scots Tory or otherwise) but OK ill bite.

A. Voting for tory in Scotland is a lost vote unless you are in one of two constituencies (niether of which I am in)
B. Tories time and time again have voted against libertarian values, instead opting for increased survailance and reduction to civil liberties
C. Tories have time and time again voted in favour of multinational business which I believe is slowly damaging the work force of the UK by lowering the quality of jobs being created
D. Tories are staunch defenders of keeping weapons of mass destruction 8 miles from the town I grew up in
E. Tories have time and time again used UK taxpayer money to prop up failed business's
F. Tories continue to make cuts that effect the poorest in society whilst aiding those at the top, I believe this will eventually lead to increased crime and civil unrest which will be used to justify more of the changes stated in B.
G. Tory MPs have time and time again proven to be disconnected from the lives of normal people
H. University Fees
I. Further privatisation of public services which I believe should be in the hands of the state (water, leccy, rail etc etc)

If anything I find myself more inclined to tactically vote for any party which will keep a tory MP, MSP or MEP out.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by CAElite
I'll continue to vote SNP. Labour have proven time and time again (especially in Scotland) to say that they will do one thing then do the complete opposite once they get into power. Corbyn seems like a step in the right direction but he is seriously going to have to prove his words before he will win back my vote and I assume the votes of my fellow SNP voters.


That is kinda the way politics works, and I would be incredibly surprised if it is not the case for the SNP. Of course, the funny thing about the SNP is how they take credit for everything they see as good, even when they have nothing to do with it, and then blame everything they see as bad on Westminster, even when it is 100% the fault of the SNP (as it often is). To be totally honest, I'm surprised they haven't tried blaming Westminster for the crash of oil prices.
Original post by Captain Haddock
Those are not, by any stretch, the fundamental elements of capitalism. 'Mandatory' wealth redistribution is a way for the state to address the inequalities caused by capitalism, or, as I put it, to 'manage' it. A purely anarchist or communist society would not have such measures, either. The key principals of capitalism are private ownership of land and the means of production, wage labour, and the free market. You could put in an argument for the existence of the free market, but the former two emerged relatively recently in the history of humanity.


Private ownership of land and the means of production has been around since at least the dawn of the Roman era.

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