"You'll change you mind when you get older and enter the real world."

It's a common response to angry young people/students complaining about "the Tories" or some perceived social injustice they have all the solutions to.

"Just wait until you have a proper job ans are paying national insurance. Then you will change you tune on welfare and NHS spending etc"

It;s something I have been told many times on this forum. It has dawned on me that in most cases the people telling me are other young students and are actually younger than me! I'm your elder you jumped up little squirt! :angry:

How do they know anything about the "real world"? They are just parroting what they read in the Telegraph or preferred political commentators, or their parents and so on. Just like us derided "lefties" do with our news sources of choice. They are no better.

Who do they think they are anyway? :fuhrer:

(edited 8 years ago)

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Reply 1

illegaltobepoor

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Basically Government policy is always put into the state schooling system and teachers will do the will of the ruling majority of the Government in fear of loosing their jobs.

You have the luxury of growing up while there still being a Labour Government to regulate the tone & agenda in school, When I was growing up I had to deal with the Conservative status quo. This was though the 80s and 90s. The whole school agenda was all about punishing any weakness a person had and all the school bullies picked up on this. If you where disabled, a minority or from a poor background you would literally be singled out in 1 way or another.

Now the new generation who started secondary school from about 2008 and forward are having the values of the Conservative party instilled in them and there is no surprise why they are eager to judge a disabled person as someone of lower worth and a burden to the state.

Watch this video. Your see exactly what I am talking about.

Go to the 4:05 min mark.
================================ ===================

[video="youtube;l14WDZCnz-w"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l14WDZCnz-w[/video]

Reply 2

the bear

OP in a few years you will re-read this & cringe.

Reply 3

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by the bear

OP in a few years you will re-read this & cringe.

Probably.

But not in the way you think. I'll still be more or less the same person I suspect.

I cringe rereading what I posted a day ago.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 4

pol pot noodles

In 1974 the Tories polled 24 percent in the 18-24 age group. In 1997 it was 27%.
Fast forward to 2015 and that first group is getting towards 65+ which the Tories polled 47% in, and the second group is 35-44 which the Tories scored 35% in. Stereotypes exist for a reason!

Reply 5

Zargabaath

I genuinely used to say the same thing as what you are, until i realised my views had changed. Although I do recognise that it is pretty condescending to say that to people.

Reply 6

silverbolt

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Probably.

But not in the way you think. I'll still be more or less the same person I suspect.

I cringe rereading what I posted a day ago.

No. you wont.

And how do I know? Because i live in the real world and have done for 15 years now. You will change and you will grow,

Reply 7

Architecture-er

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

There's a reason most bankers, businesspeople, lawyers etc are conservative, and most hippies, creatives, artists, actors and students support labour

Reply 8

ChaoticButterfly

@RayApparently

Didn't you move decidedly more left wing as you got older?

Reply 9

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by silverbolt

No. you wont.

And how do I know? Because i live in the real world and have done for 15 years now. You will change and you will grow,

I don;t mean that I wont change in that respect. It's more that my core values or outlook in how to think will remain more or less consistent. Like I doubt I will get to 50 and no longer refer to myself as a humanist for example. Or think the scientific method is useless. How those core values manifest certain outlooks and ideas I hold may well change.

I have changed and developed(or regressed) in that way since I was 18. I don't have a problem with that, It's the people who say you will develop in a certain way that I have the problem with. There is no reason why I am going to gravitate to a BearTM clone with my political views. Or my views on Atheism and religion. I don't tell Bear that when he gets older he will realize that the idea of a theistic God is a load of crap. Christopher Hitchens had to contend with a load of people saying he would find God when he god terminally ill.

My stance on religion and God is an example of something that has changed whilst remaining consistent with my core values. I'm much less of a New Atheist now, but not because I am no longer a humanist.

Original post by Architecture-er

There's a reason most bankers, businesspeople, lawyers etc are conservative, and most hippies, creatives, artists, actors and students support labour

Hippies originated in the 60s counter culture.... Any that are left will be old now.

I'm sure lots of them "sold out" as they got older. But so what? That time period enacted loads of social change for better or worse. We still hold a load of those values now. Young people being more progressive and old people being more conservative may just be a fact of life. A kind of cycle. That doesn't negate those young people or the impact they have.

Also I;m talking about age. Not profession.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 10

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by pol pot noodles

Stats

True. But that deosn't account for everyone. I think I count as an outlier in that I'm one of the angry "switched on" types. Loads of atavists remain activists into old age for their cause as an example.I think that counts more for people who take a less obsessive interest in politics.

Also I think I am inoculated against it. I know I am capable of getting a higher paid job and then being unhappy with the idea of paying even more in national insurance. So maybe more weary of left wing governments for selfish reasons. But then that it just gonna confirm my understanding of society in being a system that perpetrates certain ideas/ideals like a filter. Even if I did then vote for Tory government like this one (I'm more likely to turn liberal TBO) I can still recognize how I was right when I was young!

it's like my dad now. He will still agree with me on things about how unfair the world is. But he is older now and just wants to enjoy retirement and is more favorable of governments that help his pension pot (still semi votes labour though).

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 11

newpersonage

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

As a paid postgrad I do hate getting taxed. And the National Insurance, bloody hell! The problem is the same as anyone else's problem who is independent, there just isn't enough money. It is this that makes me think "don't give them any of my pay!". I really need the cash, housemates have left because they cannot afford the rent.

So, if you say, lets increase taxes to help this or that pet cause, I am not going to be on your side. It is about survival. If I lost 10% of my income I don't think I could carry on. I would have to get a better paid job.

Reply 12

username1799249

Original post by newpersonage

As a paid postgrad I do hate getting taxed. And the National Insurance, bloody hell!

Oh - the irony from someone who has just come through 15+ years of state funded education paid for by taxes! :smile:

Reply 13

Ethereal World

I think all people should come out of their cognitive bias once in a while and think using their brains which are actually pretty powerful and amazing things.

After growing up working class and now being more middle class in terms of my financial circumstances, I will never jump on board with a conservative mindset unless it becomes a lot more centre and not so brutal. Yes, I can see how their measures might benefit me personally perhaps, which is why I believe lot of people turn Tory when they grow up even after a liberal phase in their student days- because money and the system. It makes people self-interested and ruthless in the interest of 'protecting their own'.

Most people don't identify with/support a particular political party because of their own independent thought and research using both their brain and their empathy/morals. They do because it's either been ingrained into them by their upbringing and reinforced by the types of people they socialise with and the media they pay attention to OR because they are in a position where by the policies directly benefit them, irrelevant if that's at the expense of others.

Importantly, lots of people seem to just ignore the fact that there are less jobs than unemployed people (as mentioned by scrotgrot in another thread). So if we scrap benefits for certain unemployed people, but at the same time aren't living in a society/system that has enough jobs for people to fill then these people are going to be unemployed and have nothing to live on. And guess what they're gonna do? Steal- commit crimes- do drugs. Maybe our prisons will become even more over-run and we will need increased police and security services- the money we saved on their welfare is now going into tackling crime and dealing with it thereafter.

That might sound really simplistic but it's just so short-sighted to say cut all of X people's benefits and expecting all the problems to go away, ESPECIALLY when there aren't enough jobs.

The notion that these issues are so clear-cut and the solutions are obvious is just a little bit naive in my opinion. I don't profess to have all the answers but importantly the solutions to these issues have to be part of a wider strategy and with long-term goals.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 14

Tootles

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

Look who's talking. And how old are you, might I ask?

Reply 15

ByronicHero

My ideology hasn't changed very much at all, but my pragmatic opinion of certain policies has. It doesn't have anything to do with paying tax as I pay plenty of it and would happily pay more if everyone else was - in fact I was one of only two Labour voters in my entire branch of 40+ people during the last election.

If you have transitioned to adulthood and you are still saying exactly the same things, thinking exactly the same things and acting the same way then you have made very poor use of your time. Learn. Grow. Change. This doesn't necessitate you abandoning your principles - though they might change, and that is fine too. Some people feel guilty, or like they are betraying something if they change long-held beliefs but it is a normal part of life. The only way you can hold a strong view about something is by constantly reevaluating it in light of new circumstances and sometimes this process leads you down a new path.

Reply 16

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by Tootles

Look who's talking. And how old are you, might I ask?

But I don't tell people they are wrong because of their age, whatever that may be. They do. Even when they are even younger than me!

Older than the standard undergrad :innocent:

(I'm referring to them in OP).

Also I am influenced by people like Yanis Varafoukis who is in his 50s.

Original post by ByronicHero

If you have transitioned to adulthood and you are still saying exactly the same things, thinking exactly the same things and acting the same way then you have made very poor use of your time. Learn. Grow. Change. This doesn't necessitate you abandoning your principles - though they might change, and that is fine too. Some people feel guilty, or like they are betraying something if they change long-held beliefs but it is a normal part of life. The only way you can hold a strong view about something is by constantly reevaluating it in light of new circumstances and sometimes this process leads you down a new path.

I've done exactly that though. It';s just not going in the direction it is "supposed to do" according to the "get more right wing as you get older" brigade. Which is all I am saying really. I used to think the conservatives were ok when they won in 2010. I was glad labour party who did the Irag war were out fo office. I believed the narrative that labour caused 2008 by spending too much. I even voted for a conservative in a local council election thing! I even, heaven forbid, liked Nigel Farage :tongue:

Everything you said also applies to young right wing conservatives.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 17

Ethereal World

Original post by ByronicHero

I love the second paragraph. Unfortunately in reality it's severely lacking.

:sexface:

Reply 18

Squirrel777

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

The left have a twisted view of how the world works. They think money grows on trees, they think international law can be changed by voting in someone like Corbyn, they think you can beat your enemies and defend yourself by taking away your weapons and negotiating (while the very enemies are laughing at how they have us in their pockets). The left believe the only thing stopping the world from embracing rainbows, fairy tales and elves is the evil corporations and illuminati.

There is a reason young people always phase out of the left. Left wing politics among younger generations was very popular in the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, all up to now and a mathematician would extrapolate the numbers to give a large majority left wing government for the rest of time. Yet luckily, many realise that the world is actually not as simple as they think when they finally reach adulthood (but some are late in that stage of their development). Only the left will tell you how the world works all the while still being in school, never had a real job or just moved out of mummy and daddy's house