David Cameron on UK Muslim Communities: "We won’t let women be second-class citizens"

HAHAHAHAHAHA
Oh my god, you must be a troll with this.

@Achaea get a load of this guy!!

Sexual market value? What, are women goats now, to be sold off at auction?

Look, I'll make it simple for you. Cooking is a HOBBY. It is NOT a necessary life skill, like you say. Some people like to eat out every night, and don't enjoy cooking. That's fine - it's up to them. Other people love cooking and even make a career out of it. Again, that's fine and it's up to them. But to say that a person's worth is dependant upon things like their ability to cook is ridiculous. A woman may not be able to cook a complex meal because she never enjoyed cooking so didn't bother to learn it. It doesn't make her any less of a person, or a woman, or whatever. You don't even need to be able to cook to feed yourself - you can eat fruits, make sandwiches, buy healthy or unhealthy meals, snacks such as nuts and dried fruit, etc etc. Modern living doesn't require an ability to cook to survive.

Guess what - women come in many different forms, just like men do. What some girls like, others may not.
And as for 'show me a guy who doesn't want a gf to know how to cook' or whatever it was you asked - I really don't know who you interact with, but I have never - outside of the old Muslim communities I was once a part of - come across any guy who has said to me 'if you can't cook you're not a real woman'. My ex-boyfriends never even brought it up. The conversation would usually go like this:
'Are you hungry? what do you want for dinner?' If I didn't want to cook, and he didn't want to cook, then we ate out. No-one cook-shamed anyone, in the way you're doing now.

And why for a guy, is cooking a show of independence whereas for a woman, it is merely a necessary life skill?

Why are you so sexist, Jebedee? Why do you place so much importance on traditional gender roles? Are you afraid to think for yourself, is that it? So must follow some old customs that don't even really fit anymore in modern-day Britain?

Both men and women have a sexual market value, I wasn't singling women out. That's your assumption.

Cooking is only a hobby once it reaches a certain level, and beyond that it is a career. What I am talking about is having at least 2-3 recipes you are capable of that are healthy enough for repetitive consumption without causing obesity. I don't consider that to be a mountain of expectation, do you hate women so much that you deem them incapable of such a task? It isn't about enjoyment. We all have things we need to learn, like how to dress ourselves, do the washing up, wash our own clothes. This isn't a talent but a basic skill of living your life.
Yes you can live off sandwiches, nuts and fruit. But I for one would prefer not to date a hobo.

No most men don't ask a woman if she cooks because we still assume that she does then it comes as a nasty shock when she turns out to be less use than a chocolate radiator in the kitchen. Pathetic.

If women can demand a man who works and is able to provide, why is it so egregious to expect a woman to take a couple of hours of her time to learn a valuable life skill?
Eating outside all the time is something you can do in countries like Japan, but in the west it is a sure fire way to guarantee obesity and a lighter wallet.




Because cooking does not fit into a man's gender role.

Because it takes more than a couple of slut-walks and dying your hair red to undo millions of years of civilisation and culture.

But who is saying that 'men are expected to provide' - those are your gender role ideas that you are now bringing up to defend against your own point?! Lots of women are perfectly well-functioning, financially-independent members of society. They don't 'need to be provided for'.

I feel like you are debating on behalf of men and women living in a country like Saudi Arabia, whereas I am talking about the Western world. You can't apply the same standards and principles to both.

And it's ironic you're talking about undoing years of civilisation when that is what society is always moving towards and away from the past. You seem to be looking toward the past for inspiration.

Yeah I can see it now, all those successful working women falling over themselves to drop their knickers for unemployed men, please.

Do you think the world's current state of affairs is positive? If you do then there's no point in talking to you.

No, because successful women don't want a lazy chump to father their children/be their life partner.
Like attracts like.
These women want to be with successful men - not because they need them to 'provide' - but because they want someone of an equal social standing. A successful person will have different mentality and goals in life than someone who chooses to do nothing with their life. Geez, why am I explaining this to you? Your thinking is far too black and white. (Always hazardous).

I said society is STRIVING towards civilisation all the time. Even in the more civilised countries, there are people and organisations always working on where it is failing.

The world's current state of affairs - on the whole - there are positives and negatives. Advancements in science for example are great. Wars and sectarian violence due to religion and politics, on the other hand, are not. I'm not going to go into dissecting current affairs though, I'll be here forever. What's your point?

So what you're saying is that successful women have an expectation of men within their gender roles? Why can men not demand the same? I would wager that not many successful people are completely retarded in the kitchen.

How about current state of affairs in gender relations? I would say it an an absolute abomination and a low birth rate is a bi product of that.

English is the lingua franca. You can't draw parallels to expats living in English-speaking nations and then say "because of this, we should be learning Urdu in England to appease the immigrants". That's insanity.

The entry-point to a culture is through the common language. If you can't speak English you can't learn our customs, you cannot assimilate in the slightest. Those old people in Spain who don't learn a word of Spanish? They have their own money and don't need to assimilate. They're also not raping local women. On the other hand, the expats who are still of working age DO speak Spanish, unless they want to lock themselves to only working within the small expat marketplace or as a mediocre English teacher.

You're trying to bait-and-switch by guilting the British who are, in your opinion, incompetent. What you need to understand is that English people abroad reflect very little of what English people who have remained in their homeland actually want. All countries can fight to maintain their culture, some succeed and others fail. But they should all *try*. You don't want to try.

As I said to you previously, individual preferences and expectations are perfectly understandable. What turns you on, may not be someone else's cup of tea.
So applied here, yes I would say that successful people probably get turned on more by other successful people than those who choose not to work. Sometimes you get a successful person with a not so successful person for whatever reason. But I don't think its unreasonable to have a preference for a successful guy if you are successful (and vice versa). What you were doing though, is something different. You weren't just saying 'my personal preference is that my partner enjoys cooking'. You were pitting a woman's worth against her ability to cook - which is sexist. It's like me saying a man isn't a real man if he has a job such as binman and doesn't aspire to anything else. It's sexist and disrespectful.

Gender relations? In which country? In what context? I really don't know how that is relevant or where you are going with this.

If by sexist you mean it recognises that there are social and biological differences between the sexes then you're damn right it is sexist. Most women wouldn't consider a bin man to be a real man and you know it.

By gender relations I guess I mean most developed countries. Men and women have never hated each other so much and the marriage/birth rate has never been so low so I'd say it was a bit of a shambles tbh.

By gender relations I guess I mean most developed countries. Men and women have never hated each other so much and the marriage/birth rate has never been so low so I'd say it was a bit of a shambles tbh.

What part of being a bin man takes away from being a 'real man'? Actually, a lot of bin men, and other men in any other working class profession, are married/settled and have a loving family. I consider them men. I very much like and appreciate what they do to keep the streets clean and free from diseases. You're projecting your own views onto me, please don't do that - I can speak for myself. One of my relatives is a lazy pothead who does nothing all day and complains about his rubbish life - that's someone I wouldn't respect. I'd have far more respect for him if he got up at the crack of dawn everyday, left his comfy bed and went out in the cold to dispose of people's rubbish. Bin men contribute to the society in which they live - how is that not worthy of respect?

You're sexist, classist and hugely disrespectful. You must have some major insecurities you're trying to cover up with all these notions of what a 'real man' and 'real woman' is.

I think the low birth rate is a good thing. We're overpopulated as a species anyway, and what is the need to have 5, 6, 7 kids as is so commonly seen amongst Pakistani families, for example? As parents, you need the resources to provide for your kids in a world that is only getting more competitive and complicated, and these resources include that of time, wisdom, financial, patience, etc. Churning out kids like a log chute with no consideration for the practicality of it, and real-life, is reckless and selfish. A child is more than just a mini-human you bring into the world, who will happily flourish by himself. Parenthood is a painstaking process that involves a lot of sacrifices and children have huge amounts of needs as they grow up - to enable them to reach their maximum potential, you need to be able to provide for their needs. If people are now being more cautious about having kids and thinking ahead before plunging into it, then that is a very progressive thing and I am hugely in favour of this. A lot of humans are so entitled and self-righteous, somehow thinking they have a right to deplete more and more of the earth's - and society's - resources as though they are infinite and handed down magically. No they are not.

As for men and women hating each other so much - this statement is more of a reflection on YOU and YOUR experiences rather than society. It is easy to make negative statements like that when it is all you are exposed to. I would suggest surrounding yourself with healthier people and avoiding those toxic friendship/family links that show you examples of such toxic dynamics. I certainly don't see hatred amongst the sexes. I see a bit of everything, like in any society. You get healthy people, unhealthy people, bad people, annoying people etc. Mostly I choose to associate with healthy people so for the large part, I see men and women treating each other nicely and with respect and having functional relationships when they choose to couple up.

Who are you trying to convince? I don't have issues with bin men, but I don't make up for any of the overwhelming majority of women who would not regard a bin man as a real man. Why don't you go and explain to some of these women?

Must I?




We may be overpopulated as a species but racially we are heading for severe underpopulation. Yes Pakistanis are having roughly 6 kids per couple, but would you really want to live in a Britain where Pakistani men outnumber British men? That'll be the day gang-rape is accepted as an official Olympic sport.

You don't see hatred among the sexes really? Maybe if you're still in your teenage years it is all you've ever known but not so long ago we had some really good days where women weren't accusing everyone of rape, it was ok to be a man and ok to be a woman and women weren't shamed for picking a traditional role.

women weren't shamed for picking a traditional role.

Stop projecting. Who are these women who don't consider bin men 'real men'? What is a 'real man' as opposed to a not so real man? Bitter little boys tend to come out with 'girls are bitches who just want a guy for his wallet' - maybe you are one of these boys who can't handle rejection well and then go home to make theories on just why these 'nasty evil' women rejected them - usually theories that take the blame away from themselves. Little fragile egos. Now THAT'S what I wouldn't call a real man, since you're so keen to define this.

Who are all these women accusing everyone of rape?
I don't think you have a good grasp of what how rape has been viewed by society over the years. If you mean that recently we have seen a surge in the numbers of rapes being reported about and spoken about in the media, this is because for a long time, rape was a taboo subject that people found very difficult to talk about. Add that to the fact that rape victims can feel an awful lot of shame and guilt and so it goes underreported. Just because in the past it has been underrepprted, doesn't mean it wasn't happening...it just means it wasn't getting reported! And that could be due to a number of factors - victims could be living in a society that shuns the subject, or they may feel worried about their family's reactions...etc etc. You sound really disgruntled that victims of rape are getting more of a platform to be heard - and when you follow it up with 'when men could be real men' - it's almost - almost - as if you are implying that the good ol' days where men could do whatever they wanted and women were second-class citizens should just put up and shut up. Not anymore, sweetheart, the times have changed. Get used to it.

You should go study sociology and psychology with all your limited and ignorant beliefs.

No-one is shaming any woman for picking a traditional role.The problem is you are shaming those who don't pick traditional roles.I'm advocating informed choice and free will, and you're a advocating backwards, oppressive attitudes towards females.

Why are you so desperate to turn every word I say into some conspiracy against my character? I'd say you are the disrespectful one here.

Have I been asleep this whole time and not noticed the hordes of women clambering over their front fences to get that hunky bin man? No, it never happened and it never will...regardless of your utopian mindset. I'm not a bin man and I have a long term partner so why do you think this is some sort of projection? I'm just telling it how it is. Go and date a bin man yourself and then talk to me about this subject.

Yes it has become more talked about but along with that came the parasites who are intentionally conflating rape with minor grievances such as men saying hi in the street, getting too drunk and blaming the guy they willingly got with..etc. Those are doing the real disservice to rape victims. No actually I would love the rape victims in Germany and Sweden to be given a platform. They are far more deserving than the ones given a platform in recent years like Lena Dunham, the self-confessed child abuser who met Obama instead of the inside of a prison cell, plus that Amber Amour who is the most vile rape liar the world has ever seen. Unfortunately it seems that feminism doesn't give a toss about the real victims and I'm sure you don't either.




So feminists haven't been shaming women who don't identify as feminists and are happy staying at home raising kids? O.K.

Show me the statistics that bin men are disproportionately long-term single men. Women aren't 'clambering over their front fences' to get to them because no reasonable woman clambers over anything to get to a man. There are doctors in my hospital who have been single for a long time and can't get a girlfriend despite their efforts - if you're saying profession is what defines a 'real man' then by your logic, this shouldn't happen. But it does. Because mostly it comes down to compatibility and personality - you get awful, unattractive people in every profession. I told you before, like attracts like. Working class males are more likely to date working class females. Do you think a female cleaner for example, would care if the guy she is attracted to is a bin man? How is that in any way a utopian idea? Jesus, you must have a very embittered and negative mindset to think such a simple thing is in any way 'utopian'.

Stop reading celebrity gossip magazines - the people you cite are in the minority. And no-one knows the ins and outs of their cases anyway, we all know the media likes to sensationalise and pick out the worst bits of any story and exaggerate it.

Do you know the true definition of feminism? You make references to females who shame women that choose to stay at home - that's nothing to do with feminism. Feminism is simply equality for both sexes. Simple as that.

No that is wrong, a female cleaner would be just as likely to date a doctor as a bin man because the deciding factor for her is not her job but her attractiveness. I challenge you to find a woman over a 7 who is dating a bin man. I'm not going to entertain your ridiculous request for statistics on why women aren't fighting tooth and nail for bin men.

"no reasonable women clamber over anything to get a man". Sounds like you view men as something you scrape off your shoe if you ask me.

P.S feminism does not mean equality of the sexes. It used to when women had less rights and privileges than men. However now the term for equality for the sexes is an egalitarian while the feminist label is for people who want to adorn women as higher than men as now they have more rights and privileges than men.

Oh, so the only other option for a woman in how she conducts herself around a man is to 'scrape a man off her shoe' if she doesn't want to clamber over herself to get to him?

Obviously you are very bitter and immature. No point justifying anymore of your responses with a reply. Good luck to you in gaining perspective!