The Student Room Group

Muslims aren't the problem, Islam is

Scroll to see replies

Original post by BaconandSauce
No. but if you have to make up your own definitions of word to prove your point then knock yourself out

Just don't expect to be taken very seriously.

And with that I'll end this line of discussion.


If you've been operating under the illusion I've been making up definitions, then I can definitely see where where your inability to accept your research as flawed stems from.

Understandable - Yes
Forgivable - Yes. :wink:
Original post by Aceadria
Indeed. But the 'white' man has been made to feel guilty for his history.


But the "white man" has taken it upon himself to shoulder the responsibility and lead the world to the promised land.

The "white man" has not delivered and must bear some responsibility*.


*In the interests of impartiality, it was not exactly our fault that others refused to follow us, instead preferring to dwell in squalor and live like savages.
Original post by admonit
What sense is to believe in script, but not follow its clear instructions?


Religious script is wide open for interpretation. Hence why the religion itself is not blameless.
Original post by BaconandSauce
You need a better dictionary
disbelieverˌdɪsbɪˈliːvə(r)/nounnoun: disbeliever; plural noun: disbelievers

1.

a person who refuses to believe something or who lacks religious faith."she intends to prove the disbelievers wrong"synonyms:unbeliever, non-believer, atheist, non-theist, irreligionist, nihilist; More



PRSOM, despite his confirmation bias and obfuscation tactics, this has destroyed his argument and well and truly put it to bed. I was going to post the Oxford dictionary definition, but as you and QE2 have already done it there's no point in me doing it also.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
PRSOM, despite his confirmation bias and obfuscation tactics, this has destroyed his argument and well and truly put it to bed. I was going to post the Oxford dictionary definition, but as you and QE2 have already done it there's no point in me doing it also.


No matter how many people correct him he still won't see how he's been wrong from the start of this 'episode'

But to save my sanity I've put him on ignore so his pedantry and in this case 'made up word defanitions' can no longer distract from the topic at hand
Original post by TheArtofProtest


I have managed to differentiate, quite successfully, between a non-believer, believer, disbeliever and unbeliever .
well, undoubtedly a believer and a non-believer are not exactly one and the same thing

as to the two other categories, they are simply synonyms of non-believers

the Quran does not use those concepts : in the Quran, believers are the "moomin" (actually, the "true" believers) or the "muslims" (those who submit) or, for pre-islamic monotheists, the "hunafa"

there is no specific word for the other categories: you have the "kuffar" (those who know the truth and deny it), "the ahl ul-kitab" (people of the book : Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Sabeans), the "mushrikun" (those who associate other divinities with Allah), the "munafiqun" (hypocrites, who pretend to believe, but actually don't), and then many other definitions which are related, but do not cover the same concept - fasiq (corrupted), zalimun (oppressors - but also many other things : see here http://skeptic-mind.blogspot.be/2011/07/explanation-of-chapter-2-verse-193-in.html ) etc etc

however, language is a reality in evolution : you can use the word definitions and the categories you want, but if you are the only one using them, they have little or no value

best
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by thunder_chunky
Religious script is wide open for interpretation. Hence why the religion itself is not blameless.

Not in every religion. You are definitely right regarding christianity, because there are no strict rules in New Testament. But Islam and Judaism are different. There are several denominations in Islam, but no muslim will eat pork. There are several denominations in Judaism, but no one of them will break the Sabbath.
Original post by BaconandSauce
No matter how many people correct him he still won't see how he's been wrong from the start of this 'episode'

But to save my sanity I've put him on ignore so his pedantry and in this case 'made up word defanitions' can no longer distract from the topic at hand


Very good idea. I put him on my ignore list a few weeks ago, and it makes visiting TSR a vastly more pleasant experience. I have no idea why a notorious troll who's been banned from TSR countless dozens of times is allowed to keep posting, anyway.
Original post by admonit
Not in every religion. You are definitely right regarding christianity, because there are no strict rules in New Testament. But Islam and Judaism are different. There are several denominations in Islam, but no muslim will eat pork. There are several denominations in Judaism, but no one of them will break the Sabbath.
well, (to my knowledge) no Christian will deny the existence of God
Original post by Achaea
Very good idea. I put him on my ignore list a few weeks ago, and it makes visiting TSR a vastly more pleasant experience. I have no idea why a notorious troll who's been banned from TSR countless dozens of times is allowed to keep posting, anyway.


Same, he's on my ignore. Although I'm not actually sure if he's tsr1269 you know. The latter's posts were a lot ruder and aggressive. He has also said Islam is cancerous, something I can't imagine footstool asserting!
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Same, he's on my ignore. Although I'm not actually sure if he's tsr1269 you know. The latter's posts were a lot ruder and aggressive. He has also said Islam is cancerous, something I can't imagine footstool asserting!


Hmmm, maybe, though maybe he's just trying to pretend that he's not tsr1269 by seeming to criticise Islam on occasion. In other posts he's defended it vociferously, and in at least one post has refused to answer another member's question if he's Muslim or not, which is very tsr1269-like.
This is a University Professor, apparently.

It pretty much blew my mind, and I can't really decide now whether Islam is the problem or Muslims!

Watch it and you tell me. Absolutely incredible...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f74_1452606016
Original post by mariachi
well, (to my knowledge) no Christian will deny the existence of God

You consider this as a strict rule?
Anyway it is a bad example. God in Christianity is an abstract container, which includes three persons and every of them is considered as God..
Original post by mariachi
well, undoubtedly a believer and a non-believer are not exactly one and the same thing

as to the two other categories, they are simply synonyms of non-believers

the Quran does not use those concepts : in the Quran, believers are the "moomin" (actually, the "true" believers) or the "muslims" (those who submit) or, for pre-islamic monotheists, the "hunafa"

there is no specific word for the other categories: you have the "kuffar" (those who know the truth and deny it), "the ahl ul-kitab" (people of the book : Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, Sabeans), the "mushrikun" (those who associate other divinities with Allah), the "munafiqun" (hypocrites, who pretend to believe, but actually don't), and then many other definitions which are related, but do not cover the same concept - fasiq (corrupted), zalimun (oppressors - but also many other things : see here http://skeptic-mind.blogspot.be/2011/07/explanation-of-chapter-2-verse-193-in.html ) etc etc

however, language is a reality in evolution : you can use the words and the categories you want, but if you are the only one using them, they are of little use

best


Linguistically, the term "Kufr" means to cover, to deny.

Logically, it is absurd for someone to cover or deny a concept of which they were unaware or even have some semblance of what it means.


Furthermore, the term disbelief has cropped up in the Quran with reference to "clear proofs/evidence" (whatever they may be, I do not care to dwell on) so evidentially, one can hold that from a Quranic perspective:

Disbelief = Message + Clear proof/evidence + Rejection

That is the exact same definition as given by dictionaries.

Take away the "Rejection" and you find yourself treading on the lines of non-belief.


Furthermore, your assertions that disbelief, in the Quran, covers both non-belief and disbelief (from a definition perspective) is rendered invalid by Surah 98 which contains verses that distinguish between Kufr and Ahl-lul-Kitab, by stating that they can be mutually exclusive -

"Those who disbelieve among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters could not have left off (erring) till the clear proof came unto them" - Verse 1

"Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings." - Verse 6



Either way, it is clear that the Quran does indeed distinguish between non-belief and disbelief and simply saying that the Quran does not have a word for distinguish non-belief (without even considering what constitutes disbelief) is to express cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty.

Unlike you (and the others who have quibbled greatly over this), I have no vested interest in taking one side or the other, for it benefits me in no way but I do have an issue with people making blanket statements which they are unable to prove, going to extreme lengths, resorting to pedantry and being completely disingenuous when they do try to convolute the meaning without exercising any rationale or logic.


I have made my points very clear and I simply can't be bothered carrying on explaining the same points over and over again, simply because some people don't like what I am saying.

best.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TheArtofProtest
saying that the Quran does not have a word for non-belief (without even considering what constitutes disbelief) is to express cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias and intellectual dishonesty etc etc.
have a nice day

best
Original post by mariachi
have a nice day

best


You too.

best :smile:
Yh it's alwayz the Muslamic laws init
Bottom line:

language is a tool of communication. It changes over time, and acquires nuances and subtle shifts in meaning, according to geographical, social, literary context. Is a "wicked" singer marvelous, or perverted ? did a "terrific" holiday scare you, or thrill you ?

In practice, you can also innovate : you can use and define words as you want, but if you are the only one using them that way, they are of no value whatsoever for their main purpose : which is to communicate with other people.
Original post by QE2
If you read the Quran and sunnah, you will see that it is not "misinterpretation", but just a "different interpretation" to the one you favour. Islamic scripture in ambiguous, contradictory and therefore open to interpretation. The "extremists" take a literalist, unedited approach, probably closer to the Islam that was practiced by Muhammad. The "moderates" thake a more modern, revisionist approach, closer to the Islam practiced by modern moderates.

I agree that the latter is far more desirable, but it is not necessarily more legitimate from a scriptural sense.


Well that's right, however people do misinterpret what the Quran says and do take an extreme view.
Faith is incredibly dated for people in the 21st century. Sure the holy scriptures contain some good moral values to follow but they also contain things considered barbaric for present time. For someone to be considered a follower of a religion in the eyes of god they need to obey ALL the rules set out in their holy book. Such people who follow their holy book to the letter are commonly referred to as extremists due to some of the teachings being inappropriate for this day and age. It is this reason why I think faith has no place anymore, it has nothing to do with people twisting the words of their holy book.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending