Should junior doctors continue to strike?

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They won't go on with more strikes. Doctors don't like going on strike, and there doesn't seem to be much point. Hence the lower turnout this time.

If they really wanted to, work-to-rule for non-emergency work would get the point across pretty quickly.

Reply 21

JC.

Original post by Errrrm

You clearly don't understand the issue at hand.

I understand just fine, thanks. Perhaps you're confused.

Reply 22

ForestCat

Original post by Zerforax

Could you give some background/links to the NHSE and the BMA? I honestly don't know anything about it.

Well personally it feels like junior doctors are trying to hide behind safeguards but really only care about their money.

Society has moved on (with technology, transport etc) where everything is always available. MPs don't really work since they all need to be together to debate issues.

Doctors, on an individual level, (I do note they need other support from staff and equipment etc) don't need each other to do their job. Patients and illness do not work 9-5pm. There are plenty of other jobs who have shifted outside of 9-5pm schedules:

- supermarket staff can be made to work 24 hours all week (except Sunday evening/night)
- customer support staff have been pushed into working Saturdays
- retail staff at shopping centres have been pushed into working later evenings and Saturdays
- restaurant/bar staff work late on Friday and Saturdays

So it's fine for those people to lose time with their families because they have no choice or can't afford not to work those unsocial hours but it's unfair for junior doctors to work on a rota?

Please introduce me to any NHS Doctor who only works Monday-Friday 9-5. I think you'll find it quite an impossible task.
Doctors already do work on a rota, one that involves long days, evenings, weekends and nights.

Reply 23

seaholme

Original post by SMEGGGY

Too late the contract is going ahead. The doctors are being very greedy. The bastards have been given a rise of 11% yet they don't want to work a bit longer on the weekends? ****ing greedy tossers.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/12151643/Junior-doctors-have-no-one-to-blame-but-themselves.html

They say many will leave to go and work in another country, well let them **** off. Millions of good doctors from other countries will be more than thankful for such a contract.

The BMA, which represents 153,000 doctors, wants any Saturday working hours to count as overtime.

It's ALL about the MONEY! they can deny it over and over and over again, they are in it for the ****ing money not the patients.

Antisocial hours make up 30-40% of pay currently. Getting rid of 30-40% and replacing it with an 11% 'rise' is a significant net pay cut. Say what you like, but if you think any kind of pay boost is happening, your facts are so far out I don't know what to say. Pay is going down under the new contract.

Reply 24

elliemayl

I don't know all too much about the subject of why they're striking however from what I've heard I can understand their reasoning's...
However
These strikes are actually impacting lives and could cause serious harm. My teacher hasn't been in lately as his wife is seriously ill in hospital - she's pregnant. She went to the doctors about something - an easy problem which could have been solved. As she is pregnant she was sent to hospital and put on an anti-biotic drip. She had a huge allergic reaction to the drip and as they were busy they quickly put her on another different drip. This again went wrong and they done the same, going through 3 drips. AGAIN it went wrong and she now has blood poisoning all because they couldn't give her the correct level of care and attention due to rushing around as It was so busy (I'm not blaming the staff, I'm saying how they aren't able to do their jobs properly due to the circumstances they're under). Whether the baby is okay or not we do not yet know. These strikes need to stop before lives are actually lost and turned around forever.

Reply 25

ThomasPassion

Original post by elliemayl

I don't know all too much about the subject of why they're striking however from what I've heard I can understand their reasoning's...However
These strikes are actually impacting lives and could cause serious harm. My teacher hasn't been in lately as his wife is seriously ill in hospital - she's pregnant. She went to the doctors about something - an easy problem which could have been solved. As she is pregnant she was sent to hospital and put on an anti-biotic drip. She had a huge allergic reaction to the drip and as they were busy they quickly put her on another different drip. This again went wrong and they done the same, going through 3 drips. AGAIN it went wrong and she now has blood poisoning all because they couldn't give her the correct level of care and attention due to rushing around as It was so busy (I'm not blaming the staff, I'm saying how they aren't able to do their jobs properly due to the circumstances they're under). Whether the baby is okay or not we do not yet know. These strikes need to stop before lives are actually lost and turned around forever.

The level of staffing was better yesterday than a normal weekend, because a lot of juniors (not all of whom are BMA members or on this particular contract, and not all of whom would have been rostered to work today anyway) came into work, and a majority of outpatient clinics and non-urgent surgery was cancelled so lots of consultants were around.

I'm sorry about your teacher's wife. It sounds horrible. But it's a stretch to blame it on the strike - the hospital should do a proper investigation and say whether it was preventable or not. That's proper accountability.

Reply 26

endzone123

Original post by seaholme

even the BMA isn't trying to peddle this rubbish any more!

Reply 27

username1208193

Whilst I think striking is beneficial for the workforce in that they get to have their say and be vocal (literally), I feel that if it continues for much longer the general public will pretty much have had enough. Junior doctors get paid less than teachers (to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong?) within the first 1-3 years of their career, however wages suddenly start to fly up in huge amounts as they progress with more experience. Anyways that's my opinion.

Reply 28

Rakas21

Nay.

While doctors should certainly be angry that Hunt has not tied these reforms to a plan to increase the supply of junior doctors, they are being entirely unreasonable in striking over pay in this instance.

I support their right to bargain collectively but i will not support their striking (extorting) given the legal protections they have.

Reply 29

AceViva

Original post by JC.

No.Plenty of other folk work weekends. what makes them special?Stuff em. It's a pity it's not legal to sack 'em and replace them with others folk.

Yeah because the job of someone working in retail is definitely the same as a doctor. Communism<

Reply 30

TeeEm

definitely
I m in full support !

Reply 31

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by Zerforax

They don't work 9-5.

Supermarket staff should be paid more for working unsociable hours. Why do you want a race to the bottom? Maybe supermarket staff should unionist and strike so they can be paid more for working weekends etc,.

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 32

JC.

Original post by AceViva

Yeah because the job of someone working in retail is definitely the same as a doctor. Communism<

I take you're only ill on week days then? :rolleyes:

Reply 33

That Bearded Man

Original post by Zerforax

"The Government is determined not to yield ground on its plans reclassify Saturdays as normal working hours, as it would set a precedent for contract negotiations with other NHS staffing groups, including nurses, who are expecting to enter negotiations about new contracts later this year.

Sources familiar with the Government’s approach to the junior doctor contract negotiations have told The Independent that one of ministers’ priorities is to reduce the cost of NHS staffing bill by bringing contracts into line with many in the private sector which make no distinction between weekend and weekday pay rates."

Taken from your article. Tbh I agree with Hunt on that point.

It's a fair enough point, but as stated, the net result will be that everyone will just want weekends off, so they'll have to rotate, the current system in place rewards the people who work the awful hours. It will also target specialties such as ED which already have shortages, and encourage over-application for "nicer" specialties with less anti-social hours. Although I follow the logic, it won't address IMO the problems.

Reply 34

That Bearded Man

Original post by Rakas21

What legal protection?

Reply 35

Rakas21

Original post by That Bearded Man

What legal protection?

Striking workers and unions have a variety of legal protections that allow them to persist in acting as an oligopoly in the labour market.

Reply 36

That Bearded Man

Original post by Rakas21

Striking workers and unions have a variety of legal protections that allow them to persist in acting as an oligopoly in the labour market.

But they have legal obligations as well in terms of emergency action and advanced notice, so to say they have protections isn't a reflection when they have more obligations than protections.

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Reply 37

scrotgrot

Original post by elliemayl

The thing is the new contract itself is dangerous to patients as doctors will never get any rest.

Reply 38

username1221160

I'm sure offering them crappy working conditions and running their morale into the ground is a great way to encourage an in demand and highly mobile group of workers to stay with their current employer. I mean this wouldn't incentivise them to emigrate to a country where their abilities are more appreciated after the British taxpayer has sank hundreds of thousands of pounds into their training. Well played Mr Hunt.

Reply 39

Captain Crash

Original post by Zerforax

Doctors, on an individual level, (I do note they need other support from staff and equipment etc) don't need each other to do their job. Patients and illness do not work 9-5pm. There are plenty of other jobs who have shifted outside of 9-5pm schedules:

- supermarket staff can be made to work 24 hours all week (except Sunday evening/night)
- customer support staff have been pushed into working Saturdays
- retail staff at shopping centres have been pushed into working later evenings and Saturdays
- restaurant/bar staff work late on Friday and Saturdays

So it's fine for those people to lose time with their families because they have no choice or can't afford not to work those unsocial hours but it's unfair for junior doctors to work on a rota?