scientific reasons for believing in god?
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Original post by Plantagenet Crown
No, the examples I gave are the traditional methods by which people say he intervenes. I didn't say miracles occur or that prayers are answered, indeed, there's no real evidence for either.
But if he answers prayers and miracles DO occur then these should be able to be scientifically and rigorously investigated and confirmed, which would validate God's existence. So why hasn't this happened yet?
But if he answers prayers and miracles DO occur then these should be able to be scientifically and rigorously investigated and confirmed, which would validate God's existence. So why hasn't this happened yet?
Why would science have to prove miracles?
miracles are normally supernatural. This is again, why it goes to belief. Some people are just sceptics. They don't believe in ghosts but there is investigative paranormal scientific equipment that aims to prove a ghost's location, and people still don't believe! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I never said it was your belief that he exists because miracles are answered, I simply used the example to point out your contradiction.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
No, the examples I gave are the traditional methods by which people say he intervenes. I didn't say miracles occur or that prayers are answered, indeed, there's no real evidence for either.
But if he answers prayers and miracles DO occur then these should be able to be scientifically and rigorously investigated and confirmed, which would validate God's existence. So why hasn't this happened yet?
But if he answers prayers and miracles DO occur then these should be able to be scientifically and rigorously investigated and confirmed, which would validate God's existence. So why hasn't this happened yet?
As far as I know, there hasn't been an extensive or rigorous investigation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer
As you can see, only a comparatively tiny amount of money is spent on testing the efficacy of prayer. Of the studies done, 7/17 showed a small but significant uptick. However, as faith is a normal requirement for both healing and to be healed, it would be tricky to track. You would have to somehow qualify the faith of those being treated as well as those doing the praying.
Much more intriguing was Southampton's study on Near-Death experiences.
http://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2014/10/07-worlds-largest-near-death-experiences-study.page
However, as this was the first and only study of this magnitude of its kind it hasn't yet been reproduced. Intriguing, if one were honestly looking for evidence. But also easily dismissed if one wanted to and were determined and not intellectually honest about it.
Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it,[1] although the term is not easily defined.[2]Traditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:[3]A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysician.[4] The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and theirproperties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into the basic categories of being and how they relate to each other. Another central branch of metaphysics is cosmology, the study of the origin, fundamental structure, nature, and dynamics of the universe
Quantum mechanics (QM; also known as quantum physicsor quantum theory) including quantum field theory, is a fundamental branch of physics concerned with processes involving, for example, atoms and photons. In such processes, said to be quantized, the action has been observed to be only in integer multiples of the Planck constant, a physical quantity that is exceedingly, indeed perhaps ultimately, small. This is utterly inexplicable in classical physics.
straight from wikipedia, but i couldn't have said it better myself?
1.
Ultimately, what is there?
2.
What is it like?
Quantum mechanics (QM; also known as quantum physicsor quantum theory) including quantum field theory, is a fundamental branch of physics concerned with processes involving, for example, atoms and photons. In such processes, said to be quantized, the action has been observed to be only in integer multiples of the Planck constant, a physical quantity that is exceedingly, indeed perhaps ultimately, small. This is utterly inexplicable in classical physics.
straight from wikipedia, but i couldn't have said it better myself?
Original post by anosmianAcrimony
No, but at the same time I didn't want to call you a bro if you weren't a bro. So I used the normal o/a Latin gender suffix syntax and made a joke out of it.
I see. Although as a Classics student, I am now bound to inform you that the most common Latin word endings are in fact us/a, which is a distinction of declension rather than gender, in the case of nouns, and it is morphology not syntax.
Original post by Good bloke
Are you sure you know what metaphysics and quantum mean?
please read my last post, thanks?
Original post by mango peeler
Why would science have to prove miracles? miracles are normally supernatural. This is again, why it goes to belief. Some people are just sceptics. They don't believe in ghosts but there is investigative paranormal scientific equipment that aims to prove a ghost's location, and people still don't believe! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I never said it was your belief that he exists because miracles are answered, I simply used the example to point out your contradiction.
miracles are normally supernatural. This is again, why it goes to belief. Some people are just sceptics. They don't believe in ghosts but there is investigative paranormal scientific equipment that aims to prove a ghost's location, and people still don't believe! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I never said it was your belief that he exists because miracles are answered, I simply used the example to point out your contradiction.
What contradiction? I made no such contradiction.
And science doesn't have to because scientists generally aren't interested in proving God. But I'm coming from the standpoint of the thread title, that that COULD be a starting point for scientific inquiry if they were so inclined. And miracles being of supernatural origin is irrelevant, if they occur in the physical world then in theory they can be studied and verified.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
What contradiction? I made no such contradiction.
And science doesn't have to because scientists generally aren't interested in proving God. But I'm coming from the standpoint of the thread title, that that COULD be a starting point for scientific inquiry if they were so inclined. And miracles being of supernatural origin is irrelevant, if they occur in the physical world then in theory they can be studied and verified.
And science doesn't have to because scientists generally aren't interested in proving God. But I'm coming from the standpoint of the thread title, that that COULD be a starting point for scientific inquiry if they were so inclined. And miracles being of supernatural origin is irrelevant, if they occur in the physical world then in theory they can be studied and verified.
It's a contradiction if you tell me, sarcastically, he exists when such and such happens. And then I tell you, well these things have happened: miracles and prayers answered, per your examples. And then finish your post saying he must not exist.
Well give an example of a miracle that isn't supernatural...that can thus be "studied." Get me to understand what you're saying or this is pointless.
Original post by mango peeler
It's a contradiction if you tell me, sarcastically, he exists when such and such happens. And then I tell you, well these things have happened: miracles and prayers answered, per your examples. And then finish your post saying he must not exist.
Well give an example of a miracle that isn't supernatural...that can thus be "studied." Get me to understand what you're saying or this is pointless.
Well give an example of a miracle that isn't supernatural...that can thus be "studied." Get me to understand what you're saying or this is pointless.
You saying these things have happened is not evidence they've happened.
I repeat, a miracle being supernatural in origin doesn't mean it cannot be studied by virtue of it occurring in the physical world and thus leaving a physical trace. The most obvious example would be the healing of a condition which has been scientifically verified could not have happened through any other natural means.
SATAN!!!
LoL
LoL
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
You saying these things have happened is not evidence they've happened.
I repeat, a miracle being supernatural in origin doesn't mean it cannot be studied by virtue of it occurring in the physical world and thus leaving a physical trace. The most obvious example would be the healing of a condition which has been scientifically verified could not have happened through any other natural means.
I repeat, a miracle being supernatural in origin doesn't mean it cannot be studied by virtue of it occurring in the physical world and thus leaving a physical trace. The most obvious example would be the healing of a condition which has been scientifically verified could not have happened through any other natural means.
There have been claims I am aware of. I can't go to every single person of the millions who existed who get their minimal prayers answered everyday
do you understand how it works? People pray all the time for small stuff and big stuff and it happens. There need not be proof; you clearly don't understand nor do you believe. Separate understanding from agreeing.Anyway you didn't have to repeat, I got away from the supernatural and asked you specifically about something other than.
Lol yes. Could not have happened through any other natural means. Literally. Supernatural. Miracles are supernatural. And scientifically verified, lol good one. There doesn't need to be any..."studies and verification" for someone who
Spoiler
swallowed an inedible if not poisonous object did not get sick.
What scientific verification needs to go on there?
What you're getting at is that science trumps religion because things can be proven factual. So you would rather know in what is proven, than believe in what isn't. However you said God exists if miracles happen. That's what you said. And miracles like this have happened. And there doesn't need to be science to prove it.
An example of prayers getting answered would be getting into a school you prayed to get into. People "give their glory to God." Now if you're an Atheist, you will never credit this to God because you will never pray for it. You will say you did it on your own. A spiritual person will say it was God even though they didn't literally see a physical form, that calls itself God, float down and type up the acceptance letter.
Original post by TheFisherTea
The problem with the 'God Hypothesis' is that it is un-falsifiable.
I cannot definitively prove that he does not exist as much as you cannot prove that a unicorn that i can only see and detect visits me every night.
I cannot definitively prove that he does not exist as much as you cannot prove that a unicorn that i can only see and detect visits me every night.
Well, it's doctrinal for most of us. We believe in God and so we see evidence of Him in everything. If you have a hard belief that he doesn't exist, you won't see his existence anywhere.
Sure. It's unfalsifiable. If you're seeking to prove he -doesn't- exist, it isn't going to happen. If you're wondering if maybe he does, then that's a conversation that can be had.
Original post by mango peeler
Such as?
I can't go to every single person of the millions who existed who get their minimal prayers answered everyday do you understand how it works?
do you understand how it works? No they don't, as you have provided no evidence for this. To prove a prayer has been answered you must show there is no other way it could have happened. Prayers that are supposedly answered are probably just things that would have happened anyway, even if the person hadn't prayed. If you're claiming that the prayer was answered by a god then the onus is on you to prove it, something you have not done.
People pray all the time for small stuff and big stuff and it happens. There need not be proof; you clearly don't understand nor do you believe. Separate understanding from agreeing.
You have provided no evidence for prayers being answered. In fact, your claim that this happens is self-refuting. You say all these millions of people say their prayers are answered and yet they all believe in different gods, which proves that their prayers aren't truly answered, otherwise you're admitting that all of these gods are real!
Anyway you didn't have to repeat, I got away from the supernatural and asked you specifically about something other than.
Lol yes. Could not have happened through any other natural means. Literally. Supernatural. Miracles are supernatural. And scientifically verified, lol good one. There doesn't need to be any..."studies and verification" for someone whoswallowed an inedible if not poisonous object did not get sick.
What scientific verification needs to go on there?
Lol yes. Could not have happened through any other natural means. Literally. Supernatural. Miracles are supernatural. And scientifically verified, lol good one. There doesn't need to be any..."studies and verification" for someone who
Spoiler
What scientific verification needs to go on there?
You would need to actually provide a case of this happening that has been scientifically verified, not just a random anecdotal account.
What you're getting at is that science trumps religion because things can be proven factual. So you would rather know in what is proven, than believe in what isn't. However you said God exists if miracles happen. That's what you said. And miracles like this have happened. And there doesn't need to be science to prove it.
Incorrect, I have never said that if miracles happen God exists. I have said that that is one of the so-called evidences that many people give when they try to prove that their particular version of God is real. If miracles did happen then they could just as easily be the work of powerful spirits, demons, angels, even advanced aliens.
Miracles haven't happened and you haven't provided evidence of any happening.
An example of prayers getting answered would be getting into a school you prayed to get into. People "give their glory to God." Now if you're an Atheist, you will never credit this to God because you will never pray for it. You will say you did it on your own. A spiritual person will say it was God even though they didn't literally see a physical form, that calls itself God, float down and type up the acceptance letter.
Nonsense, this is confirmation bias and doesn't prove that prayers are answered. Once again, you would have to prove that there was no other way save divine intervention that this could have happened. And as we know for a fact that you don't need to pray to get into a school (people get into schools all the time without praying) this blows your entire argument out of the water.
Well exactly, unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, no one is going to consider this rigorous proof in any reasonable sense of the word. And this is precisely why anecdotal evidence is extremely weak, because anyone can say virtually anything concerning their inner experience and expect others to accept it as true.
You appear to be confusing even yourself now. You've spent a couple of pages babbling on about how faith and belief doesn't have tangible evidence and now you're asserting that miracles do happen and that prayers have been answered. Make your mind up!
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by mangala
Matching bible verses to the big bang theory does not mean they are true. Before the big bang theory existed, you would've just picked different passages or said that they meant different things.
The thing is the bible verses came first, before scientists or NASA published their discoveries.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Such as?
No they don't, as you have provided no evidence for this. To prove a prayer has been answered you must show there is no other way it could have happened. Prayers that are supposedly answered are probably just things that would have happened anyway, even if the person hadn't prayed. If you're claiming that the prayer was answered by a god then the onus is on you to prove it, something you have not done.
You have provided no evidence for prayers being answered. In fact, your claim that this happens is self-refuting. You say all these millions of people say their prayers are answered and yet they all believe in different gods, which proves that their prayers aren't truly answered, otherwise you're admitting that all of these gods are real!
You would need to actually provide a case of this happening that has been scientifically verified, not just a random anecdotal account.
Incorrect, I have never said that if miracles happen God exists. I have said that that is one of the so-called evidences that many people give when they try to prove that their particular version of God is real. If miracles did happen then they could just as easily be the work of powerful spirits, demons, angels, even advanced aliens.
Miracles haven't happened and you haven't provided evidence of any happening.
Nonsense, this is confirmation bias and doesn't prove that prayers are answered. Once again, you would have to prove that there was no other way save divine intervention that this could have happened. And as we know for a fact that you don't need to pray to get into a school (people get into schools all the time without praying) this blows your entire argument out of the water.
Well exactly, unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, no one is going to consider this rigorous proof in any reasonable sense of the word. And this is precisely why anecdotal evidence is extremely weak, because anyone can say virtually anything concerning their inner experience and expect others to accept it as true.
You appear to be confusing even yourself now. You've spent a couple of pages babbling on about how faith and belief doesn't have tangible evidence and now you're asserting that miracles do happen and that prayers have been answered. Make your mind up!
No they don't, as you have provided no evidence for this. To prove a prayer has been answered you must show there is no other way it could have happened. Prayers that are supposedly answered are probably just things that would have happened anyway, even if the person hadn't prayed. If you're claiming that the prayer was answered by a god then the onus is on you to prove it, something you have not done.
You have provided no evidence for prayers being answered. In fact, your claim that this happens is self-refuting. You say all these millions of people say their prayers are answered and yet they all believe in different gods, which proves that their prayers aren't truly answered, otherwise you're admitting that all of these gods are real!
You would need to actually provide a case of this happening that has been scientifically verified, not just a random anecdotal account.
Incorrect, I have never said that if miracles happen God exists. I have said that that is one of the so-called evidences that many people give when they try to prove that their particular version of God is real. If miracles did happen then they could just as easily be the work of powerful spirits, demons, angels, even advanced aliens.
Miracles haven't happened and you haven't provided evidence of any happening.
Nonsense, this is confirmation bias and doesn't prove that prayers are answered. Once again, you would have to prove that there was no other way save divine intervention that this could have happened. And as we know for a fact that you don't need to pray to get into a school (people get into schools all the time without praying) this blows your entire argument out of the water.
Well exactly, unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, no one is going to consider this rigorous proof in any reasonable sense of the word. And this is precisely why anecdotal evidence is extremely weak, because anyone can say virtually anything concerning their inner experience and expect others to accept it as true.
You appear to be confusing even yourself now. You've spent a couple of pages babbling on about how faith and belief doesn't have tangible evidence and now you're asserting that miracles do happen and that prayers have been answered. Make your mind up!
I know you can find research for and against any and everything but this was 'for' prayer working.
http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/
Original post by john2054
please read my last post, thanks?
So you are now aware that metaphysics isn't a science and that time cannot travel backwards or forwards in a quantum.
Original post by Racoon
I know you can find research for and against any and everything but this was 'for' prayer working.
http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/
http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/
Well that's the point. If there are also studies that prove prayer doesn't work, which there are, then it cannot be conclusively proven that prayer works, otherwise it would work in all cases.
Original post by Racoon
I know you can find research for and against any and everything but this was 'for' prayer working.
http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/
http://www.newsmax.com/Health/Headline/prayer-health-faith-medicine/2015/03/31/id/635623/
That doesn't show prayer working. It shows that the devout suffer less from stress and live longer as a result, presumably because they have delusions of comfort.
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
Well that's the point. If there are also studies that prove prayer doesn't work, which there are, then it cannot be conclusively proven that prayer works, otherwise it would work in all cases.
We can't say prayer doesn't work in all cases, obviously but we are to still ask God to heal. If God answered all our prayers then there would be no God believing people in hospitals or in graves. We pray, God knows.
It is difficult to know sometimes what exactly is going on but that's what faith is all about, 'let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven', we don't know it all.
Original post by Good bloke
That doesn't show prayer working. It shows that the devout suffer less from stress and live longer as a result, presumably because they have delusions of comfort.
Ridiculous.
Original post by Racoon
Ridiculous.
Says the person who cannot even accurately represent what his own sources say.
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