Apple Vs US Goverment!

OP

Original post by KungPooPanda

from a practical standpoint, i agree with apple, something like this simply sets a precedent that you dont really want

besides, with all the resources the FBI have, why the feck cant they just hack into the phone

I honestly think this could be the beginning of the End! The US goverment are essentially saying give me the key to your kingdom and you cannot question it!
It's Ridiculous

Reply 4

Indeterminate

3

I'm also with Apple on this one! :yep:

Counter-terrorism policy shouldn't require organisations like Apple to make significant compromises which would harm the interests of the general public.

Reply 5

OP

Original post by Indeterminate

I'm also with Apple on this one! :yep:

Counter-terrorism policy shouldn't require organisations like Apple to make significant compromises which would harm the interests of the general public.

I would go as far as to say this could ruin them in the EU market, these laws could open up pandoras box and the EU have their own privacy laws that companies have to abide by!

Reply 6

aamirac

20

I'm with Apple here!

They have worked together with the FBI in trying to solve crimes and offered them the information they needed in order to do so.

But to jeopardise the privacy of the innocent is unjust and a breach of privacy!

Reply 7

Unkempt_One

13

Apple are 100% right about this. Aside from being an egregiously unfair infraction on their competitiveness - encryption is one area that mobile phone manufacturers are competing on nowadays - it also betrays an absolute disregard for the consequences. If you create a single key which can open every door, once that key is leaked (which it will be), whoever it is leaked to can also access those doors. This is the real problem with governments' insistence on having special backdoor access to every device and form of encryption; the security services have no accountability, thus no incentive to properly handle information on the decryption processes involved, and thus they will eventually be leaked and every hacker on the planet from western Russia to eastern China will have a ****ing field day compromising absolutely all of Westerners' data. If you let the government in your backyard you are letting in literally everyone. It's actually simply insane security policy as well; do the government think their own institutions would be the only victims of cyber warfare?

(edited 8 years ago)

Reply 8

I agree with the FBI here.
Regardless of obtaining a 'master key', Law enforcement will still required to obtain warrants to use it in the future. There's been no change on that front.
I also don't think either 'slippery slope' or 'it could fall into the wrong hands' are valid logical arguments. But if we were to talk about slippery slopes, I'd be talking about the one of a big multinational corporation arbritarily deciding to ignore a court order because it doesn't like it.

Reply 9

OP

Original post by pol pot noodles

I agree with the FBI here.
Regardless of obtaining a 'master key', Law enforcement will still required to obtain warrants to use it in the future. There's been no change on that front.
I also don't think either 'slippery slope' or 'it could fall into the wrong hands' are valid logical arguments. But if we were to talk about slippery slopes, I'd be talking about the one of a big multinational corporation arbritarily deciding to ignore a court order because it doesn't like it.

Do you realise how massively incompetent the US goverment is? What they are asking is too much, basically asking for a master key to open any and every iphone!
And regarding this issue, Apple is probably the single biggest company in the world, it doesnt take two seconds for apple to move its HQ to a different country ie Switzerland and for the US goverment to lose billions as a result!

Reply 10

Original post by BlackSweetness

Do you realise how massively incompetent the US goverment is? What they are asking is too much, basically asking for a master key to open any and every iphone!
And regarding this issue, Apple is probably the single biggest company in the world, it doesnt take two seconds for apple to move its HQ to a different country ie Switzerland and for the US goverment to lose billions as a result!

Broad generic hyperbole isn't a logical argument either.
I know what they're asking for and I've already addressed that. Having a 'master key' doesn't suddenly mean law enforcement doesn't have to abide by already existing laws and procedures.
Not sure how your second point is relevant. The chances of Apple moving their HQ are minute. Regardless, foreign companies still have to abide by court orders, and are you saying they shouldn't have to abide by the law? That Apple is right to arbritarily decide it doesn't want to follow a court order because it doesn't like it?

Reply 11

OP

Original post by pol pot noodles

I know what they're asking for and I've already addressed that. Having a 'master key' doesn't suddenly mean law enforcement doesn't have to abide by already existing laws and procedures.

I do understand what your staying regarding the fact Apple cant choose to ignore laws, but what i am trying to stress is that wont this backdoor pave the way for hackers and other goverment to essentially spy on users with iphones! Its too much to ask for imo

Reply 12

KungPooPanda

10

Original post by pol pot noodles

Broad generic hyperbole isn't a logical argument either.
I know what they're asking for and I've already addressed that. Having a 'master key' doesn't suddenly mean law enforcement doesn't have to abide by already existing laws and procedures.
Not sure how your second point is relevant. The chances of Apple moving their HQ are minute. Regardless, foreign companies still have to abide by court orders, and are you saying they shouldn't have to abide by the law? That Apple is right to arbritarily decide it doesn't want to follow a court order because it doesn't like it?

You mean because effectively breaches the confidentiality and privacy between the customer and apple? im not sure about 'because it doesn't like it'

Or are you the type of person who is foolish enough to assume that the govt will literally use it once for this, and then get rid of it, and there is literally zero chance that this backdoor system manages to make it out of the security of their HQ? I mean, if thats the kinda person you are then fair enough, im not surprised you think the FBI is right, but if your not, then open your eyes, if you cant see that this is about much more than just this 'one phone' then your really not paying attention.

Apple do this ONCE, and from this point on, all the FBI need to do is very simply identify someone as a terrorist (or potential) threat to national security and just like that, they are in their phones, you really think thats the way to go?

Reply 13

Original post by BlackSweetness

I do understand what your staying regarding the fact Apple cant choose to ignore laws, but what i am trying to stress is that wont this backdoor pave the way for hackers and other goverment to essentially spy on users with iphones! Its too much to ask for imo

From what I understand the FBI want Apple to produce software that overrides the auto wipe that happens after ten failed attempts, so they can attempt to physically hack the passcode of the phone by sheer volume of attempts. This isn't some all encompassing virtual spyware that allows them to access all phones remotely.

Reply 14

KungPooPanda

10

And lets not forget, technically if apple does this they are liable to be sued by the phone's owner (or his lawyer or whatever)

The agreement between him and apple for them to keep his information confident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the govt and apple, and 'in theory', is just as legally concrete as the court order apple are about to fight

As they have put, this is really more than just about gaining access to this one specific phone, Apple are probably the losers either way, they open the phone and, well.. stress. They dont open the phone, and they go on the US govt's shitlist for a long time to come

Reply 15

Original post by KungPooPanda

You mean because effectively breaches the confidentiality and privacy between the customer and apple? im not sure about 'because it doesn't like it'

That's the given reason as to why they don't like it. The fact remains that whatever the reason, the FBI have a valid court order and Apple must abide by it.
As for the 'reason', law enforcement is already allowed to breach many aspects of confidentiality and privacy under certain circumstances. Tap your phones, put surveillance on you etc.

Original post by KungPooPanda

Or are you the type of person who is foolish enough to assume that the govt will literally use it once for this, and then get rid of it, and there is literally zero chance that this backdoor system manages to make it out of the security of their HQ? I mean, if thats the kinda person you are then fair enough, im not surprised you think the FBI is right, but if your not, then open your eyes, if you cant see that this is about much more than just this 'one phone' then your really not paying attention.

Paranoia isn't a logical argument, nor is 'slippery slope'. I don't care whether the FBI keep hold of the software for future use. They're still not allowed to arbitrarily use it at will. You'll notice they obtained a court order for this, and they'll have to do so to use it in the future too.

Original post by KungPooPanda

Apple do this ONCE, and from this point on, all the FBI need to do is very simply identify someone as a terrorist (or potential) threat to national security and just like that, they are in their phones, you really think thats the way to go?

After following the correct procedure by convincing a judge and obtain a court warrant.

Reply 16

Original post by KungPooPanda

And lets not forget, technically if apple does this they are liable to be sued by the phone's owner (or his lawyer or whatever)

The agreement between him and apple for them to keep his information confident has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the govt and apple, and 'in theory', is just as legally concrete as the court order apple are about to fight

No they aren't. Law enforcement investigations pretty much trump everything else legally. At most the lawyer can try and sue the FBI or US Government but I can't see that getting anywhere, considering they'd be representing a dead terrorist and the FBI investigation is valid.

Reply 17

KungPooPanda

10

Original post by pol pot noodles

That's the given reason as to why they don't like it. The fact remains that whatever the reason, the FBI have a valid court order and Apple must abide by it.
As for the 'reason', law enforcement is already allowed to breach many aspects of confidentiality and privacy under certain circumstances. Tap your phones, put surveillance on you etc.

Paranoia isn't a logical argument, nor is 'slippery slope'. I don't care whether the FBI keep hold of the software for future use. They're still not allowed to arbitrarily use it at will. You'll notice they obtained a court order for this, and they'll have to do so to use it in the future too.

After following the correct procedure by convincing a judge and obtain a court warrant.

they probably have only obtained a court warrant because they attempted to get in and couldn't. If they were to use information from this cracked phone they would have to be able to show they obtained it legally, they have had the phone for at least a while now, yet have only recently stated request that apple crack into it for them. This idea of coming out publicly and letting the world know they have asked for a cracked IOS is probably political, this is the FBI, as you say, they can pretty much do whatever they want, I doubt they are asking for apple to do this because they 'cant get into' the phone.

Original post by pol pot noodles

No they aren't. Law enforcement investigations pretty much trump everything else legally. At most the lawyer can try and sue the FBI or US Government but I can't see that getting anywhere, considering they'd be representing a dead terrorist and the FBI investigation is valid.

Yes, actually they are. If the police come to my house today and take my phone and then APPLE unlock it for them, i have a case, its really that simple.

'This was for the purpose of a law enforcement investigation' will not get you out of trouble in court when the lawyer is asking ' So what about the confidentiality between you (apple) and your customers? Does that no longer count for anything? Is it fair to assume that this could happen again? That a customer who buys a product from you is not safe from having that product unlocked against their will by the same people who he trusted to buy that product from?'

Its like them asking microsoft to allow access to passwords for accounts they think are terror related

Reply 18

OP