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There are too many people on benefits

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Original post by mkap
i agree, it should be harder for people to get it or they should be encouraged more to find a job. fair enough some people really need benefits but people like my parents work hard and pay tax for people who spend the money on fags and beer.


and keep the local economy going as opposed to your middle-class parents who horde a lot of their money.
Original post by stargirl63
Good, when I have the chance I'll be doing the same.

If I'm rich enough to want to open an off-shore account, I'm not particularly interested in funding schools or NHS when my children will get private education and private healthcare.

I'd prefer a "pay as you go " approach to calling police, fire brigade etc - what's the harm in paying for what you use?

I find tax like everyone going to a restaurant with friends, and everyone ordering significantly different priced meals, and then at the end "splitting the bill equally" ... and you end up paying for your friend's 5 glasses of wine. It's BS.


It's not BS. It's like a group of friends going for a meal, but one friend orders champagne and the most expensive meal but then expects the rest of the friends to split the bill.
I was on benefits for a while due to unemployment (obviously) and the difficulty in gaining new employment. I met genuine, struggling people at my local JCP for the few weeks I was there, very few to no "spoungers" that our country loves to use as a scapegoat when we're keen on not blaming the Government.

How a minority keep managing to play the system is intriguing, I have no idea how they do it. If you don't fill the quota, you don't get your JSA or Universal Credit... well, that's how I thought it was.
Original post by bethwalker85
It's not BS. It's like a group of friends going for a meal, but one friend orders champagne and the most expensive meal but then expects the rest of the friends to split the bill.


Nope, I don't expect anyone to split the bill. If one friend orders champagne, they can pay for the champagne, if one orders tap water, they can pay nothing.

I don't expect anyone to split the bill. I don't expect anyone to pay for me, and I don't expect me to pay for anyone else.
Original post by stargirl63
Nope, I don't expect anyone to split the bill. If one friend orders champagne, they can pay for the champagne, if one orders tap water, they can pay nothing.

I don't expect anyone to split the bill. I don't expect anyone to pay for me, and I don't expect me to pay for anyone else.


Yes but I'm not asking you about your eating habits I'm talking about how rich people avoiding paying their tax are just as bad, if not worse than people who don't want to get off benefits.
Original post by mscaffrey
The harm is that the way society and the economy is set up as far as the forseeable future is concerned there will always be inequality. People cannot afford to pay for what they use, through no fault of their own. There are all kinds of reasons why people are poor, or poorer than average, from illness to redundancy to incredibly unfortunate life circumstances. I hope you never find yourself in a position where you are reliant on others. No one chooses to struggle, we would all love to have well paid jobs and access to everything we need. When the fortunate don't see their own fortune as being down to luck (mostly - some people work extremely hard and get bad luck and lose everything) it really pisses me off. If we are lucky enough to have excess money why shouldn't we help to redistribute wealth through taxes?


I'm more than happy to help people, give money to charity, spend time with kids etc - I already do. However tax isn't a choice in this country. I know a friend who wants to stay on benefits because she would get more on benefits than getting an actual job. That's not right by any means.

I agree there will be inequality. Unfortunately, that is life. It's not equal that the science lesson you bunked off when you were younger is the same lesson a poor kid in India would have sold his right leg to attend to and it's not equal that those who "just about" live above breadline HAVE to fork out x percentage of their income to those "in need" even though they are by no stretch of the imagination millionaires and have their own bills to pay, able to afford it, and it is not equal (nor fair) that the person working in a club as a cleaner is laughed at by those on benefits because "they would never do that job themselves".

The point I'm trying to make (I hope) is that a number of people who "cannot afford" certain things are due to their life style choices. Maybe that girl who back chatted teachers at school saying "I'll never use maths in my life" should have paid attention and got the grades, or that guy who would rather stay playing xbox than show up to his exams, should have realised his actions, or the guy who spends every Saturday night in A&E because he can't handle his drink. If things weren't so "readily given" then maybe there would be more respect for what we have got.
Original post by bethwalker85
Yes but I'm not asking you about your eating habits I'm talking about how rich people avoiding paying their tax are just as bad, if not worse than people who don't want to get off benefits.


I wasn't referring to eating habits, I was referring to people paying for each other.

Why rich people have a "duty" to look after the poor people is something I won't understand. I agree that it's the right thing to do, and that the world will be a better place etc, but when it's something FORCED upon you, and tax evasion is crime which could take you to jail, is something I don't agree with at all. Why don't we throw everyone in jail who doesn't volunteer and give to charity - that's basically the same thing.
Original post by stargirl63
Good, when I have the chance I'll be doing the same.

If I'm rich enough to want to open an off-shore account, I'm not particularly interested in funding schools or NHS when my children will get private education and private healthcare.

I'd prefer a "pay as you go " approach to calling police, fire brigade etc - what's the harm in paying for what you use?

I find tax like everyone going to a restaurant with friends, and everyone ordering significantly different priced meals, and then at the end "splitting the bill equally" ... and you end up paying for your friend's 5 glasses of wine. It's BS.


The harm is when your house burns down because your neighbour didn't pay for a fire brigade subscription, or when you get robbed by a guy who should be in jail but isn't because his previous victims couldn't afford to report him to the police.
Original post by Captain Haddock
The harm is when your house burns down because your neighbour didn't pay for a fire brigade subscription, or when you get robbed by a guy who should be in jail but isn't because his previous victims couldn't afford to report him to the police.


You raise a good point.

Perhaps take emergency services out of the equation. What about the public schools / public healthcare that won't be used because I can afford private school / private healthcare ?
Original post by stargirl63
You raise a good point.

Perhaps take emergency services out of the equation. What about the public schools / public healthcare that won't be used because I can afford private school / private healthcare ?


Everybody benefits from having a healthy, educated populace. Especially wealthy business owners.
Original post by stargirl63
Good, when I have the chance I'll be doing the same.

If I'm rich enough to want to open an off-shore account, I'm not particularly interested in funding schools or NHS when my children will get private education and private healthcare.

I'd prefer a "pay as you go " approach to calling police, fire brigade etc - what's the harm in paying for what you use?

I find tax like everyone going to a restaurant with friends, and everyone ordering significantly different priced meals, and then at the end "splitting the bill equally" ... and you end up paying for your friend's 5 glasses of wine. It's BS.


eloquently put.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Captain Haddock
Everybody benefits from having a healthy, educated populace. Especially wealthy business owners.


I 100% agree. Now how about those who abuse the NHS system by staying in A&E every saturday because they can't handle their drink, straining the NHS resources? Or those who would rather bunk off school, back chat teachers etc making teaching a less than favourable career for many, not to mention the number of kids in the world who would give their right arm to sit in a lesson ?

What I'm trying to get at, is, if we are paying for the less fortunate to have a free ride, how are we ever going to instill that they should not take things like education for granted?
Original post by stargirl63
I 100% agree. Now how about those who abuse the NHS system by staying in A&E every saturday because they can't handle their drink, straining the NHS resources? Or those who would rather bunk off school, back chat teachers etc making teaching a less than favourable career for many, not to mention the number of kids in the world who would give their right arm to sit in a lesson ?

What I'm trying to get at, is, if we are paying for the less fortunate to have a free ride, how are we ever going to instill that they should not take things like education for granted?


If this guy is in the A&E every week for alcohol poisoning he'll probably die before he becomes too much of a burden. Besides, why should healthcare be taken away from everyone else just because a handful of people 'abuse' the system?

Bad pupils should be dealt with internally. Anyway, the solution to truancy and delinquency isn't to provide less education, it's to provide more and better education.
Reply 33
Avatar for Comus
Comus
10
Original post by TSRFT8
The rich dont OWE you their money, this is the problem with the working class, until this mindset that the rich OWE them something is removed nothing will change. The rich are being FORCED to hand over their money (yes its the moral thing etc) but they arent your slaves for them to be working 40 hour weeks and for you to be playing the xbox. Yes people have disabilities and im not saying people should not get benefits, but this whole thing that the rich have too much money and should share is the stupidest thing i have heard.

What about those whose wealth is derived from wage exploitation - Why is it okay for them to take the lion's share of the benefit from the things produced by the working classes? A few concessions made to the working classes is peanuts.

Oh and by the way - the snobbery is really unbecoming.
Original post by Comus
What about those whose wealth is derived from wage exploitation - Why is it okay for them to take the lion's share of the benefit from the things produced by the working classes? A few concessions made to the working classes is peanuts.

Oh and by the way - the snobbery is really unbecoming.


Im guessing you are talking about those who work for others? Well the people who own these companies/businesses did not just get them sitting on their arse. Is it fair? Why the hell not, if someone worked their socks off to start up a business they now reap the rewards, why should they split their earnings with people who are working for them? This whole communism debate is through envy and nothing else, if you owned a business and made £1million profit you arent going to give the workers £950,000 youre living in a world of fantasy. Its all good when you are telling others to share but if the roles were reversed would you do the same? Would you ****, you just want others to do it.
(edited 8 years ago)
Reply 35
Avatar for mkap
mkap
20
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
and keep the local economy going as opposed to your middle-class parents who horde a lot of their money.


what makes you think my dad hordes his money. he pays a mortgage, council tax, pays for bills, home insurance, car insurance and he's paying off another house. He provides for a family of six. it is my dad who pays back into the economy as he pays taxes.
Original post by mkap
what makes you think my dad hordes his money. he pays a mortgage, council tax, pays for bills, home insurance, car insurance and he's paying off another house. He provides for a family of six. it is my dad who pays back into the economy as he pays taxes.


He might not and he certainly spends a lot of it but are probs going to have savings like most middle class people. People with less and on benefits tend to spend almost everything they are given because they have to and there is more of culture of living in the now rather than saving. There is no point saving when it would take a life time to save anything. So when they do get a temp job from the job centre that new income goes on a PS3 (I've done this basically with my PC). Your family is unusually large however.

So if you tax and redisubtute some money from the savers and give it to the spenders that can have positive effects on the economy as it increase consumer spending. This is called marginal propensity to consume. Since we are in a recession etc that is what we need, people buying crap. Generally speaking giving money to poor people is good for the economy which is the only unit of measurement everyone only talks about anyway. So who cares?

There is also no reason why we can not enact progressive pacts between the middle and lower classes that reduce tax and expenses for middle class families l;ike yours. When the mega rich don't pay thier share it's families like yours that have to foot the bill.
Solution= forced labour for people unemployed after a certain period of time.
Original post by 0123456543210
Solution= forced labour for people unemployed after a certain period of time.


That exists for many people on benefits. Especially people on JSA.
Original post by mkap
i agree, it should be harder for people to get it or they should be encouraged more to find a job. fair enough some people really need benefits but people like my parents work hard and pay tax for people who spend the money on fags and beer.


Nobody on £72 a week spends their £72 a week budget on fags and beer. Ok maybe they can afford cheap smartprice beer. Do you know how much 20 cigarettes cost? (Of which all goes back into the purse anyway)

Meanwhile the government is making the unemployed work at multi million £ companies like Tesco for free

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