Sexism against men
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Original post by Zargabaath
@Ethereal World I'm not gonna jump on the feminist-bashing bandwagon, but remember what I told you the other night? What the default response to any male issue was?
These posts I've quoted are pretty standard responses. Look at the OP's points, I find it pretty depressing that people get rep for trivialising issues like this.
These posts I've quoted are pretty standard responses. Look at the OP's points, I find it pretty depressing that people get rep for trivialising issues like this.
Completely agree, it's a serious discussion and these are sensitive issues. It's okay to prioritise women's rights, but to sweep men's issues under the carpet completely because you associate them with sexist 'menimists' is not on. It's easy to become a knee jerk reaction when you hear 'men's rights' but sometimes there is serious substance to the issues raised.
Original post by BENJISAURUS
Well, they don't, at least not in their purest ideological forms. If people have an issue with feminism being 'anti male' then they should join and attempt to reshape the feminist movement (e.g. perhaps campaigning for less reactionary responses and more sympathetic approaches to dealing with ignorance).
Men's equality cannot exist without women's equality- the two have to coexist and so therefore so should their movements. This is why it's particularly unhelpful to bash feminism; it's probably done more for men's rights and awareness of male issues than 'menimism' has, and wherever equality is campaigned for it's important to recognise that this means equality for both the sexes. Whether someone is correct on the statistics or not, it's clear there is gender inequality in the world for both men and women, and a united movement, rather than one movement trying to smear the other, is needed.
Men's equality cannot exist without women's equality- the two have to coexist and so therefore so should their movements. This is why it's particularly unhelpful to bash feminism; it's probably done more for men's rights and awareness of male issues than 'menimism' has, and wherever equality is campaigned for it's important to recognise that this means equality for both the sexes. Whether someone is correct on the statistics or not, it's clear there is gender inequality in the world for both men and women, and a united movement, rather than one movement trying to smear the other, is needed.
I just don't see any attempt to reshape the movement as being potentially successful; it seems too dogmatic and aggressive.
What has it really done for men's rights and awareness of male issues though? I agree that a united movement is a positive thing, but the current one seems too toxic to be transformed in such a way as to effect this.
All of your examples are worse then almost any problem women in the western world face, so should we totally ignore them as well?
Also I don't see how not having domestic abuse shelters, being forced onto the frontlines, being mutilated at birth, being punished harsher by the justice system, being more likely to be a victim of violent crime, or forcing a child rape victim to pay alimony are non consequential.
Also I don't see how not having domestic abuse shelters, being forced onto the frontlines, being mutilated at birth, being punished harsher by the justice system, being more likely to be a victim of violent crime, or forcing a child rape victim to pay alimony are non consequential.
Original post by Zargabaath
@Ethereal World I'm not gonna jump on the feminist-bashing bandwagon, but remember what I told you the other night? What the default response to any male issue was?
These posts I've quoted are pretty standard responses. Look at the OP's points, I find it pretty depressing that people get rep for trivialising issues like this.
These posts I've quoted are pretty standard responses. Look at the OP's points, I find it pretty depressing that people get rep for trivialising issues like this.
The issues that happen to women in collectivist societies are minor compared to all these point.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Zargabaath
All of your examples are worse then almost any problem women in the western world face, so should we totally ignore them as well?
Also I don't see how not having domestic abuse shelters, being forced onto the frontlines, being mutilated at birth, being punished harsher by the justice system, being more likely to be a victim of violent crime, or forcing a child rape victim to pay alimony are non consequential.
Also I don't see how not having domestic abuse shelters, being forced onto the frontlines, being mutilated at birth, being punished harsher by the justice system, being more likely to be a victim of violent crime, or forcing a child rape victim to pay alimony are non consequential.
Men are less likely to be victims of domestic abuse, at least going by physical standards so it would be stupid to build more domestic abuse shelters for men when they aren't needed. Futhermore the domestic abuse suffered by women tends to be more physical and life threatening, how many times do you read in the newspaper of a woman killing the man? It happens a lot more the other way around
In which western countries are men forced onto the frontline? I was under the impression National Service was abolished years ago
Where is your proof men are more likely to be victims of violent crime? Also, men commit the majority of violent crime anyway; how else do you explain the fact that about 90% of the prison population is male. Is that fact sexist aswell?
I agree about the child rape thing; the woman in this situation should certainly be punished. It's practically paedophilia on top.
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
I just don't see any attempt to reshape the movement as being potentially successful; it seems too dogmatic and aggressive.
What has it really done for men's rights and awareness of male issues though? I agree that a united movement is a positive thing, but the current one seems too toxic to be transformed in such a way as to effect this.
What has it really done for men's rights and awareness of male issues though? I agree that a united movement is a positive thing, but the current one seems too toxic to be transformed in such a way as to effect this.
Just identify (you probably already are) as a moderate feminist
there's a big spectrum- unfortunately the aggressive and inflammatory feminists (who may be right in principle but help nobody with their attitudes) are the only ones really given large coverage. I would argue the only reason this discussion is being had now is because of feminism- two sides of the same coin! The feminist movement taught us to question convention, and here we are 
Original post by scrotgrot
Convenient that, so western women get theirs, but when it comes to injustice against western men suddenly there are more important things to sort out.
That's because historically men have not been oppressed. Men have never been oppressed and never will be as they compose the dominant ruling class and hold most of the power in the world
I'll be honest, I skimmed this because it's the same list of things I've seen over and over. The problems are caused by patriarchal gender roles. Feminists are fighting against these oppressive patriarchal gender roles that harm both (and indeed ALL) genders.
FEMINISM, gender equality, whatever you want to call it- it's the answer to all gender inequality! Don't argue against feminists when you're fighting for the same thing! I'm out...
Original post by minimarshmallow
I'll be honest, I skimmed this because it's the same list of things I've seen over and over. The problems are caused by patriarchal gender roles. Feminists are fighting against these oppressive patriarchal gender roles that harm both (and indeed ALL) genders.
You have put this so perfectly!
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
I think I remember some thread on such an instance here, but anyway, a quick google yields an article on one case and mentioning a couple of others http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/05/nick-olivas-alleged-rape-victim-_n_5773532.html
If that actually happened, then yes, I agree that it is disgusting that he is being financially punished for, in effect, being a victim of rape. She certainly should have been the one getting punished in this situation, not the other way around
Original post by scrotgrot
The usual conspiracy theory ********...
Do you or do you not agree that the vast majority of world leaders, CEO's, law makers etc are male? Do you or do you not agree that people in these positions wield massive power, influence and responsibility?
Original post by minimarshmallow
I'll be honest, I skimmed this because it's the same list of things I've seen over and over. The problems are caused by patriarchal gender roles. Feminists are fighting against these oppressive patriarchal gender roles that harm both (and indeed ALL) genders.
No, no they're not. Plus how is any of this stuff anything to do with gender roles.
Original post by Zargabaath
How do we fix this?
@Ethereal World Although what's also pretty depressing, is that no one's (from either side) replied to this comment. You were definitely right about that side of things.
Original post by scrotgrot
That patriarchy eh?
Okay, so maybe a couple of isolated cases in the western world compared to the suffering that still goes in developing and third world countries. My point is not that sexism against men doesn't happen or that it isn't wrong; I just think it's a little self indulgent (aside from the heinous example above) when there are millions of more severe human rights violations going on in the world
Right, and that means little Jimmy who lives next door to you is part of the oppressor class, does it?
It's not because they're men, it's because they have power. Women are just as bad in power, if not worse.
Just because our society is ultimately founded on war, which men do better than women, and therefore those holding the power end up being mostly men, doesn't mean a 14 year old boy raped and forced to pay alimony is an oppressor.
You assume men in power work in political caucus with men who are lesser than them. Only women have that kind of gendered empathy, and even then yoi don't see much of it in power. Men are more likely to just send less powerful men down the mines or to the front lines while extending protections to women.
It's not because they're men, it's because they have power. Women are just as bad in power, if not worse.
Just because our society is ultimately founded on war, which men do better than women, and therefore those holding the power end up being mostly men, doesn't mean a 14 year old boy raped and forced to pay alimony is an oppressor.
You assume men in power work in political caucus with men who are lesser than them. Only women have that kind of gendered empathy, and even then yoi don't see much of it in power. Men are more likely to just send less powerful men down the mines or to the front lines while extending protections to women.
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