Sexism against men
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For the love of god when will sexism stop being a competition?
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Original post by Zargabaath
How do we fix this?
We are fixing this. You, by asking that question, are helping to fix gender inequality. We fix it by having an inclusive united front for the gender equality movement, and welcoming moderates and all points of view to the discussion. It's a big question with an answer bigger than one answer, but discussions like this will help answer it.
Original post by SophieSmall
For the love of god when will sexism stop being a competition?
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Precisely
it's self indulgent to want equality now? Ok..
Why is this such an issue to you?
Saying we should forget about issues because there are bigger issues in the world is a sure fire way to stop progress. There is no reason we can't address both.
Why is this such an issue to you?
Saying we should forget about issues because there are bigger issues in the world is a sure fire way to stop progress. There is no reason we can't address both.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by scrotgrot
No, no they're not. Plus how is any of this stuff anything to do with gender roles.
Wow I cannot believe I keep having to have this conversation over and over again...
How these are influenced by gender roles that come about from a patriarchal society:
Original post by balanced
Real sexism is almost no shelters for male victims of domestic violence.
Men are presumed to be tougher than women, so less likely to be abused and less likely to need support etc. - e.g. man up
Real sexism is men getting harsher punishments for the same crime.
Men are tougher, will take more to change them. Women are softer, can't have them in prison for long - also they're caregivers and may have to get out for their children
Real sexism is countries with compulsorily military service for men.
Man strong, woman soft.
Real sexism, courts that takes children from fathers based on gender.
Women as the natural caregivers
Real sexism is numerous government departments dealing with women's issues but none dealing with men's issues.
Given that we're in a patriarchal society with more men than women in government, this one is probably down to the men to pull their fingers out, to be honest.
Male infant circumcision/genital mutilation is legal and performed widely and even completely socially accepted but female genital mutilation is not.
Firstly, they're different. The female one is done to derive a woman from getting any sexual pleasure, which is patriarchal oppression by itself. I don't think male circumcision is still completely socially accepted, but this more a religion issue than a gender one. If a standard is set completely on female mutilation, then it's not a big step for male circumcision as well.
A young boy raped by a woman can be forced to pay child support to his rapist if she gets pregnant, that's real sexism.
Because women are seen as the caregivers and men as the providers
Many countries do not even recognize female on male rape. It can maximally only amount to “sexual assault” that's real sexism.
Because men are strong and women are soft...
Real sexism is having no special laws like VAWA to protect men, even though men are the majority of victims of violent crime.
Because men are strong and should protect themselves
There are drives to fill quotas for women for the high paid roles but not in the dangerous jobs dominated by men, thats real sexism.
Because the women are too soft for the dangerous jobs
In the army, police, fire service or any other position women have to meet much lower physical standards than men.
Because women are softer than men...
Real sexism is services for men only given a fraction of the funds that services for women are given at a government and a social level.
I point back to more males in government
For the same crime, irrespective of the gender of the offender, the perpetrator gets more punishment if the victim is female rather than male.
Because men are strong and women are soft
Most divorce laws are skewed against men, men can lose half his properly, money and children to a woman who decides to leave him.He is expected to pay for this betrayal, especially if he has already provided for and supported her, this is real sexism.
Because her role is caregiver and his is provider
Real sexism is almost no shelters for male victims of domestic violence.
Men are presumed to be tougher than women, so less likely to be abused and less likely to need support etc. - e.g. man up
Real sexism is men getting harsher punishments for the same crime.
Men are tougher, will take more to change them. Women are softer, can't have them in prison for long - also they're caregivers and may have to get out for their children
Real sexism is countries with compulsorily military service for men.
Man strong, woman soft.
Real sexism, courts that takes children from fathers based on gender.
Women as the natural caregivers
Real sexism is numerous government departments dealing with women's issues but none dealing with men's issues.
Given that we're in a patriarchal society with more men than women in government, this one is probably down to the men to pull their fingers out, to be honest.
Male infant circumcision/genital mutilation is legal and performed widely and even completely socially accepted but female genital mutilation is not.
Firstly, they're different. The female one is done to derive a woman from getting any sexual pleasure, which is patriarchal oppression by itself. I don't think male circumcision is still completely socially accepted, but this more a religion issue than a gender one. If a standard is set completely on female mutilation, then it's not a big step for male circumcision as well.
A young boy raped by a woman can be forced to pay child support to his rapist if she gets pregnant, that's real sexism.
Because women are seen as the caregivers and men as the providers
Many countries do not even recognize female on male rape. It can maximally only amount to “sexual assault” that's real sexism.
Because men are strong and women are soft...
Real sexism is having no special laws like VAWA to protect men, even though men are the majority of victims of violent crime.
Because men are strong and should protect themselves
There are drives to fill quotas for women for the high paid roles but not in the dangerous jobs dominated by men, thats real sexism.
Because the women are too soft for the dangerous jobs
In the army, police, fire service or any other position women have to meet much lower physical standards than men.
Because women are softer than men...
Real sexism is services for men only given a fraction of the funds that services for women are given at a government and a social level.
I point back to more males in government
For the same crime, irrespective of the gender of the offender, the perpetrator gets more punishment if the victim is female rather than male.
Because men are strong and women are soft
Most divorce laws are skewed against men, men can lose half his properly, money and children to a woman who decides to leave him.He is expected to pay for this betrayal, especially if he has already provided for and supported her, this is real sexism.
Because her role is caregiver and his is provider
Apart from the ones that are to do with a male dominated government not supporting men in the same way that they are women, they're all to do with gender roles.
Patriarchy and these oppressive gender roles causes 99% of problems for both men and women (along with a hell of a lot of problems for non-binary or trans* individuals), and this is what feminists are against - the unfair roles that society tells us we have no choice but to fill.
Original post by SophieSmall
For the love of god when will sexism stop being a competition?
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
I'm literally writing a blog post on this right now. I'm sick of having this conversation and not the conversation about what we're going to do about it to help men and women and those who check the 'other' box.
Genuine question: What is patriarchy in your eyes @minimarshmallow
Not asking you to justify your point, just to explain what patriachy is in your sense of the word.
best regards!
Not asking you to justify your point, just to explain what patriachy is in your sense of the word.
best regards!
Original post by minimarshmallow
Wow I cannot believe I keep having to have this conversation over and over again...
How these are influenced by gender roles that come about from a patriarchal society:
Apart from the ones that are to do with a male dominated government not supporting men in the same way that they are women, they're all to do with gender roles.
Patriarchy and these oppressive gender roles causes 99% of problems for both men and women (along with a hell of a lot of problems for non-binary or trans* individuals), and this is what feminists are against - the unfair roles that society tells us we have no choice but to fill.
How these are influenced by gender roles that come about from a patriarchal society:
Apart from the ones that are to do with a male dominated government not supporting men in the same way that they are women, they're all to do with gender roles.
Patriarchy and these oppressive gender roles causes 99% of problems for both men and women (along with a hell of a lot of problems for non-binary or trans* individuals), and this is what feminists are against - the unfair roles that society tells us we have no choice but to fill.
Just so stories. Just make women and men equal before gender blind sentencing guidelines, funding guidelines etc.
In theory none of it should ever mention men or women, just people.
Plus feminists don't actually campaign about any of this stuff even if they do go with the gender roles explanation. More concerned about writing articles about manspreading, making websites to shame the way men flirt with them on Tinder, etc.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by BENJISAURUS
We are fixing this. You, by asking that question, are helping to fix gender inequality. We fix it by having an inclusive united front for the gender equality movement, and welcoming moderates and all points of view to the discussion. It's a big question with an answer bigger than one answer, but discussions like this will help answer it.
I agree, I think when the rational moderates on both sides of the argument start to call out the views of the bigots on their own sides we'll be able to discuss these issues properly with minimal s**t-flinging.
But I think everyone needs to understand that there are multiple theories on what causes these problems, the one they happen to hold isn't necessarily the correct one.
I like you Benjisaurus.
Original post by scrotgrot
Just so stories. Just make women and men equal before gender blind sentencing guidelines, funding guidelines etc.
In theory none of it should ever mention men or women, just people.
Plus feminists don't actually campaign about any of this stuff even if they do go with the gender roles explanation. More concerned about writing articles about manspreading, making websites to shame the way men flirt with them on Tinder, etc.
In theory none of it should ever mention men or women, just people.
Plus feminists don't actually campaign about any of this stuff even if they do go with the gender roles explanation. More concerned about writing articles about manspreading, making websites to shame the way men flirt with them on Tinder, etc.
So if you focus on what your issues are and formulate a campaign from your perspective, is that not a better use of your time than attacking feminists because you don't think what they're doing is worthwhile?
I'm not saying feminists are perfect and you won't get some of them attacking you for it as well, but why can't you just rise above it knowing that your campaigning is helping people?
Manspreading, and aggressive flirting on tinder and other sites, to use the examples you have used are due to gender roles too - men as the dominant gender and women as the subservient. Which is fine if that's what you like, but not fine if you don't, and the choice should be there rather than it being something that is reinforced on us by society.
Original post by minimarshmallow
So if you focus on what your issues are and formulate a campaign from your perspective, is that not a better use of your time than attacking feminists because you don't think what they're doing is worthwhile?
I'm not saying feminists are perfect and you won't get some of them attacking you for it as well, but why can't you just rise above it knowing that your campaigning is helping people?
Manspreading, and aggressive flirting on tinder and other sites, to use the examples you have used are due to gender roles too - men as the dominant gender and women as the subservient. Which is fine if that's what you like, but not fine if you don't, and the choice should be there rather than it being something that is reinforced on us by society.
I'm not saying feminists are perfect and you won't get some of them attacking you for it as well, but why can't you just rise above it knowing that your campaigning is helping people?
Manspreading, and aggressive flirting on tinder and other sites, to use the examples you have used are due to gender roles too - men as the dominant gender and women as the subservient. Which is fine if that's what you like, but not fine if you don't, and the choice should be there rather than it being something that is reinforced on us by society.
Please don't tell me you think campaigning against men sitting with their legs apart on the tube and bullying men with linguistic traps on Tinder and then posting them online while not even erasing their profile info is as worthy a cause as what is in the OP. It astounds me that you seem to believe in these things as genuine issues.
Men are not very good at working together as they have more empathy for women than for other men. The thing is whenever a men's rights group or opinion does get in the media, it is instantly attacked by feminists as being a vanguard for a reactionary traditionalist movement with all its proponents secretly wanting rape legalised etc.
What feminists always say is that men's issues are best left to feminists to work out. They know what's best for men, and they will find some way to fit it into their pet sociological theories if it's the last thing they do.
Original post by minimarshmallow
Wow I cannot believe I keep having to have this conversation over and over again...
How these are influenced by gender roles that come about from a patriarchal society:
Apart from the ones that are to do with a male dominated government not supporting men in the same way that they are women, they're all to do with gender roles.
Patriarchy and these oppressive gender roles causes 99% of problems for both men and women (along with a hell of a lot of problems for non-binary or trans* individuals), and this is what feminists are against - the unfair roles that society tells us we have no choice but to fill.
How these are influenced by gender roles that come about from a patriarchal society:
Apart from the ones that are to do with a male dominated government not supporting men in the same way that they are women, they're all to do with gender roles.
Patriarchy and these oppressive gender roles causes 99% of problems for both men and women (along with a hell of a lot of problems for non-binary or trans* individuals), and this is what feminists are against - the unfair roles that society tells us we have no choice but to fill.
Circumcision on males is the same as on females, it reduces pleasure dramatically and was a religious/tribal practice.
Also your idea that men are abused less is wrong, men are abused more than women, both domestically and much more on the streets (physical violence etc).
Women vote the men into government, there are more women than men (especially in the elderly who vote the most)
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by balanced
You're right, and how does that influence my point?
My point is that you are making a few relatively minor issues seem important over the vast majority of much more severe human rights abuses that occur in the world on pretty much daily basis. There are more pressing matters at hand if you want to pick some and actually fight for a meaningful cause instead of molly coddled privileged white western males.
Some of the points you bring up are valid; for example, the rape case which really should have been handled better, but some of your points are ridiculous.
I'm staying out of the whole male-female debate here. And instead focusing on your point about pursuing more 'important' issues.
How can we as a nation prove to be a bastion of equality and egalitarianism if we ourselves are not a suitable example?
I mean i could apply your example fifty years ago too and say "Why should homosexuality be legalised in Britain when in Pakistan they're murdering people for homosexuality." A simplistic analogy, i know. But what i mean by this is that i feel we need to focus on our issues over here first, or we're simply being hypocritical, a priest preaching to the choir: the pot calling the kettle black...
Finally trivialising any issue is bad. When i had depression and was feeling low i only felt worse when i read about people stating how white men have it so easy in this country, despite them as a demographic killing themselves more than anyone else. Whilst women attempt suicide more than anyone else. Both these issues are perfectly news-worthy and i feel that they both need the immediate attention and awareness of everyone in order to help solve it.
TLDR: We can't expect foreign nations to listen to us about gender equality/LGBT rights/democratic freedoms if we ourselves are not a perfect utopian example of these virtues.
Sorry for the long-post!
Best regards to ya!
POST-EDIT: In a perfect world gender politics one day will itself become redundant as genders will be irrelevant. Only useful in pursuing one's sexuality.
How can we as a nation prove to be a bastion of equality and egalitarianism if we ourselves are not a suitable example?
I mean i could apply your example fifty years ago too and say "Why should homosexuality be legalised in Britain when in Pakistan they're murdering people for homosexuality." A simplistic analogy, i know. But what i mean by this is that i feel we need to focus on our issues over here first, or we're simply being hypocritical, a priest preaching to the choir: the pot calling the kettle black...
Finally trivialising any issue is bad. When i had depression and was feeling low i only felt worse when i read about people stating how white men have it so easy in this country, despite them as a demographic killing themselves more than anyone else. Whilst women attempt suicide more than anyone else. Both these issues are perfectly news-worthy and i feel that they both need the immediate attention and awareness of everyone in order to help solve it.
TLDR: We can't expect foreign nations to listen to us about gender equality/LGBT rights/democratic freedoms if we ourselves are not a perfect utopian example of these virtues.
Sorry for the long-post!
Best regards to ya!
POST-EDIT: In a perfect world gender politics one day will itself become redundant as genders will be irrelevant. Only useful in pursuing one's sexuality.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Francis Urquhart
I'm staying out of the whole male-female debate here. And instead focusing on your point about pursuing more 'important' issues.
How can we as a nation prove to be a bastion of equality and egalitarianism if we ourselves are not a suitable example?
I mean i could apply your example fifty years ago too and say "Why should homosexuality be legalised in Britain when in Pakistan they're murdering people for homosexuality." A simplistic analogy, i know. But what i mean by this is that i feel we need to focus on our issues over here first, or we're simply being hypocritical, a priest preaching to the choir: the pot calling the kettle black...
Finally trivialising any issue is bad. When i had depression and was feeling low i only felt worse when i read about people stating how white men have it so easy in this country, despite them as a demographic killing themselves more than anyone else. Whilst women attempt suicide more than anyone else. Both these issues are perfectly news-worthy and i feel that they both need the immediate attention and awareness of everyone in order to help solve it.
TLDR: We can't expect foreign nations to listen to us about gender equality/LGBT rights/democratic freedoms if we ourselves are not a perfect utopian example of these virtues.
Sorry for the long-post!
Best regards to ya!
How can we as a nation prove to be a bastion of equality and egalitarianism if we ourselves are not a suitable example?
I mean i could apply your example fifty years ago too and say "Why should homosexuality be legalised in Britain when in Pakistan they're murdering people for homosexuality." A simplistic analogy, i know. But what i mean by this is that i feel we need to focus on our issues over here first, or we're simply being hypocritical, a priest preaching to the choir: the pot calling the kettle black...
Finally trivialising any issue is bad. When i had depression and was feeling low i only felt worse when i read about people stating how white men have it so easy in this country, despite them as a demographic killing themselves more than anyone else. Whilst women attempt suicide more than anyone else. Both these issues are perfectly news-worthy and i feel that they both need the immediate attention and awareness of everyone in order to help solve it.
TLDR: We can't expect foreign nations to listen to us about gender equality/LGBT rights/democratic freedoms if we ourselves are not a perfect utopian example of these virtues.
Sorry for the long-post!
Best regards to ya!
I understand the point you're trying to make but using your own example focusing on ourselves hasn't really worked out for the people suffering in other nations, has it? We have legalised gay marriage but in Pakistan homosexuals are still being executed, aren't they? Therefore your argument that we have to be perfect to be influential is false because homosexuals are still executed in other parts of the world.
We need to act on issues such as child trafficking, homophobia in those other parts on the world if we want to make a difference.
Original post by BENJISAURUS
Feminism is the pursuit of equality of the sexes- it encompasses both male and female equality. I believe both fighting for women's equality and fighting for men's equality are two sides of the same coin, and neither should contradict nor interrupt the other.
That is FAR from how its playing out in reality.
Original post by Zargabaath
@Ethereal World Although what's also pretty depressing, is that no one's (from either side) replied to this comment. You were definitely right about that side of things.
Thanks for quoting me in and yes this is an issue.
I take two issues with how the OP has started this off though.
'Real sexism' implies pretty obviously that the sexism woman are complaining about is not 'real' and what men have is worse, so automatically it is advocating for male issues in the same breath as insulting woman's so called issues.
What I said to you is that talking about men's issues should be a positive-only force. It should be inclusive and respectful of woman's but different and equally important issues. Straight away this has gone in at the wrong side of things and it only serves to create the battle with which sex is worse off and ruins the whole mission of achieving equality on both sides.
Oh and talking about woman's issues or what we seem to be now referring to as feminism should be exactly the same but there are some Instances where men have to be exposed for the resolution of female equality because of the natural dynamic of oppression in the system.
Both sides should also take into account biological determinism which is something feminism, in general, seems very unaware of.
I have said recently that I believe that what feminism promotes will create a female version of emasculation where women who do want to carry out their biological role of breeding and investing in children will feel judged and as though they haven't made it in life because they didn't do everything and take on the world and try to be a man. We just need to be respectful of everyone's choices, work together and reduce the real issues that face both sides.
Most importantly there should be space for men to speak up and I would support them entirely to that measure but speak up and take the upper hand. Don't bitch about feminism and woman to advocate what you're fighting for.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by SophieSmall
For the love of god when will sexism stop being a competition?
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Being hostile and bashing either side helps no one, we need to come together as men and women to tackle these issues rather than make enemies out of each other inevitably making the divide stronger. It's common sense, how people don't see this is astounding to me.
Seconded. Everything I feel in such a compact way. Stolen for future use and will always credit.
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