The Student Room Group

Israel VS Gaza?

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Original post by pol pot noodles
They should have tried harder then, frankly. Buck stops at them.


Implicit in agreeing to a ceasefire is that you're supposed to be agreeing to it in good faith to stop hostilities, not to use it as a blame game.
Original post by anarchism101
Implicit in agreeing to a ceasefire is that you're supposed to be agreeing to it in good faith to stop hostilities, not to use it as a blame game.


Good faith wears thin after 18 months of failure in which dozens of rocket and mortar attacks were launched against Israel. You have to deliver results to claim to be abiding by a ceasefire, not just 'try' to.
Original post by anarchism101
Implicit in agreeing to a ceasefire is that you're supposed to be agreeing to it in good faith to stop hostilities, not to use it as a blame game.


Do you consider the building of tunnels into Israel a 'hostile ' action?
Original post by pol pot noodles
No. Recognising that Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and the group ultimately in charge over there is not the same as recognising them as legitimate.
It's the same as how the Taliban was ultimately deemed responsible for sheltering Al Qaeda even though neither the United States nor UK recognised them as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.


The responsibilities of a nation state, like that of Israel, cannot possibly be equivalent to the responsibilities of an entity that is considered a terrorist organisation.

For an entity to assume such responsibilities, Israel must explicitly confer legitimacy.

Original post by BaconandSauce
Do you consider the building of tunnels into Israel a 'hostile ' action?


A survival action given that the entire enclave is blockaded by the states hostile to the Gaza Strip.

Original post by BaconandSauce
Hamas leader in Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, on Jan. 29 Jan. 2016, acknowledged that the organization is digging new terrorist tunnels and experimenting with rockets. Speaking at the funeral of seven Hamas terrorists killed in a Gaza tunnel collapse this week, due to heavy rains and floods, Haniyeh said, "The heroes are digging in eastern Gaza, and in western Gaza are experimenting with rockets." Haniyeh's remarks constitute the first hint since the end of Operation Protective Edge by a senior Hamas official that Hamas is building offensive tunnels. "Tunnels underground, and rockets above the ground," said Haniyeh. "We are continuing on the path of jihad and towards the territories' liberation. The resistance is in a state of preparation, improvement and equipping of all its weapons in order to be ready for the any conflict with Israel." (Ynet/Arutz-7)
Vive la Gaza! Vive la Fillisteen. :pal:
Original post by TheArtofProtest

A survival action given that the entire enclave is blockaded by the states hostile to the Gaza Strip.


We are talking about tunnels into Israel so how does this 'aid' their survival?
Original post by BaconandSauce
We are talking about tunnels into Israel so how does this 'aid' their survival?


Have you looked at a map of Gaza recently? If not, allow me to refresh your memory:



They could try tunneling towards Egypt (as indeed they already have) or they could try digging the next underwater tunnel to Tripoli or Cyprus (but Israel would arbitrarily ban the necessary materials) or they could try digging deeper into Israel, ensuring that Tel Aviv carefully considers the repercussions the next time it feels like going on a carpet bombing spree or engaging in it's biennial blood letting of Gazan men, women and children.


Original post by pol pot noodles
Nothing of the sort. Any nation can have diplomatic interactions with any organisation without having to recognise it as a legitimate government. Israel interacts with Hamas as an organisation that rules over Gaza. It is not a legitimate government, being a terrorist organisation, yet nevertheless has de facto control over the Gazan people. Claiming that expecting Hamas to abide by and enforce a ceasefire is tantamount to recognising the group as 'legitimate' is a ridiculous notion.


Original post by pol pot noodles
Hamas must take actions to prevent Israeli retaliation against Hamas actions. Cool circular logic there bro.


I don't think it's prudent of me to take legitimacy lessons (or any lesson for that matter) from supporters of an authoritarian regime that exercises complete control over the lives of Gazans, by implementing a land and air blockade that has been decried as illegal and unlawful by many that are renowned in international law circles who have no vested interests in the conflict.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by TheArtofProtest
The responsibilities of a nation state, like that of Israel, cannot possibly be equivalent to the responsibilities of an entity that is considered a terrorist organisation.

For an entity to assume such responsibilities, Israel must explicitly confer legitimacy.


Nothing of the sort. Any nation can have diplomatic interactions with any organisation without having to recognise it as a legitimate government. Israel interacts with Hamas as an organisation that rules over Gaza. It is not a legitimate government, being a terrorist organisation, yet nevertheless has de facto control over the Gazan people. Claiming that expecting Hamas to abide by and enforce a ceasefire is tantamount to recognising the group as 'legitimate' is a ridiculous notion.
Original post by TheArtofProtest

They could try tunneling towards Egypt (as indeed they already have) or they could try digging the next underwater tunnel to Tripoli or Cyprus (but Israel would arbitrarily ban the necessary materials) or they could try digging deeper into Israel, ensuring that Tel Aviv carefully considers the repercussions the next time it feels like going on a carpet bombing spree or engaging in it's biennial blood letting of Gazan men, women and children.


Hamas must take actions to prevent Israeli retaliation against Hamas actions. Cool circular logic there bro.
Original post by TheArtofProtest
Have you looked at a map of Gaza recently? If not, allow me to refresh your memory:.


They are digging into Israel

This does not, in any way shape or form, aid the survival of those in the Gaza strip

But don't complain next time Israel flattens a chunk of houses to prevent Hamas from undermining their country
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by pol pot noodles
Hamas must take actions to prevent Israeli retaliation against Hamas actions. Cool circular logic there bro.


Very circular. One could almost say 'twisted'
Original post by BaconandSauce

But don't complain next time Israel flattens a chunk of houses to prevent Hamas from undermining their country

Disgusting.
Original post by Callous Twits
Disgusting.


Just honest

You can't keep pulling the tail of the tiger then cry when it turns round and rips your arm off and the arms of a few 'innocent' bystanders

But if you cared about the families who will lose their home and the land that will be made into a no go area you might want to reserve your anger for Hamas who openly acknowledge they are building tunnels to attack Israel rather than Israel who is trying to defend itself from such attacks.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by BaconandSauce
Just honest

You can't keep pulling the tail of the tiger then cry when it turns round and rips your arm off and the arms of a few 'innocent' bystanders

I'm glad you agree that Israel has the same self-control, and reacts in the same way, as a wild beast.


Fitting analogy.
Original post by Callous Twits
I'm glad you agree that Israel has the same self-control, and reacts in the same way, as a wild beast.


Fitting analogy.


yes a wild beast that will happily sleep in its cage until idiots start pulling at its tail (you'll find this is a rather apt analogy for most countries that are currently in existence)

But I see you are still angry for Israel acting the way we all know it will rather than the idiots pulling its tail.

As I said don't come crying to me when Gaza has a few more acres of land converted into a rubble heap (but I suppose Hamas can use the rubble to build a few more tunnels and well, round and round it goes)
Original post by BaconandSauce

But I see you are still angry for Israel acting the way we all know it will rather than the idiots pulling its tail.

You speak as though breaching international law is acceptable if it is done consistently and repeatedly.


You have clearly never studied international law.
Original post by Callous Twits
You speak as though breaching international law is acceptable if it is done consistently and repeatedly.


You have clearly never studied international law.


The international law that says tunneling into a country to attack them or the one that says they can defend themselves from such attacks as both have been done consistently and repeatedly (as reported Hamas are still doing this so we can expect Israel to react in the future)

As you have studded this can you tell me which international laws Hams are breaking in preparing such attacks?

Then can you tell me which International law Israel are breaking by defending themselves from such attacks.

That is as you have studied international law.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by BaconandSauce
The international law that says tunneling into a country to attack them or the one that says they can defend themselves from such attacks as both have been done consistently and repeatedly (as reported Hamas are still doing this so we can expect Israel to react in the future)

As you have studded this can you tell me which international laws Hams are breaking in preparing such attacks?
If I educated all of your similarly-ignorant ilk I would have no time left in the day!


Then can you tell me which International law Israel are breaking by defending themselves from such attacks.

It depends how they 'defend' themselves; there is a right to self defence (Article 51 of the UN Charter) but this is not an unqualified right and can only be invoked under certain circumstances (ergo not in many of the cases where Israel argues it does).


For example, consider the advisory opinion of the ICJ in the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory:

139 ICJ, para

Article 51 of the Charter, the Court notes, recognizes the existence of an inherent right of self-defence in the case of armed attack by one State against another State. However, Israel does not claim that the attacks against it are imputable to a foreign State. The Court also notes that Israel exercises control in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and that, as Israel itself states, the threat which it regards as justifying the construction of the wall originates within, and not outside, that territory. The situation is thus different from that contemplated by Security Council resolutions 1368 (2001) and 1373 (2001), and therefore Israel could not in any event invoke those resolutions in support of its claim to be exercising a right of self-defence. Consequently, the Court concludes that Article 51 of the Charter has no relevance in this case.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by BaconandSauce


But don't complain next time Israel flattens a chunk of houses to prevent Hamas from undermining their country


Your ilk certainly wont.
Original post by Callous Twits
If I educated all of your similarly-ignorant ilk


And there you go.

To sum you know Israel are right (they are allowed to defend themselves) but you just cant bring yourself to admit Hamas are actually breaking international law buy building tunnels to launch attacks against Israel

But I suspect you'll be bleating like a little lamb when Israel is once again forced to defend its citizens with cries of 'won't someone think of the children'

and round and round it goes..................
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Your ilk certainly wont.


I certainly won't.

Perhaps if Hamas didn't keep building tunnels Israel wouldn't have this reason to defend themselves.
(edited 8 years ago)

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