Feminist reaction to kesha contract trial shows why it's scary to be accused of rape.

I'm not splitting hairs, I'm asking two very simple questions that can't provide an answer to

You can't claim to have evidence of something but tell the other person they have to find it themselves.


Posted from TSR Mobile

Well like I've already said, I disagree with the methodology.Posted from TSR Mobile

This thread is not about your friend being raped nor about how scary it is to be raped we can all assume it's very scary to be raped we don't need your comments on it thank you.

Stick to the topic or do not bother posting at all.

I am not even going to bother commenting on your reasons on why people don't report rape.

But you saidSo you're saying you disagree with the methodology of something that you haven't even bothered to google How rational.

Have a read through http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/method-quality/specific/crime-statistics-methodology/methodological-notes/index.html for the notes and commentary around the methodology all changes to the CSEW (note - google CSEW methodology) and http://lmgtfy.com/?q=csew+technical+report+201415 for the most recent technical report.

So you can't answer my two questions?


Posted from TSR Mobile

You've completely ignored what I said. There is no way you reasonably expect a person with no legal education to decide when they're capable of giving consent if legal experts can't decide. There is also nothing to prevent people from lying.

Also could you post a link to the information about this restructuring


Posted from TSR Mobile

It also says 'or when you were not capable of consent'. The capacity to give valid consent is one of the most problematic areas of the criminal justice system, the courts still don't really have a consistent idea of when someone is capable and when they aren't. That means that this part of the question makes the entire question incredibly subjective.

Also I don't think its that hard to imagine that people who feel that they have been raped would read this question, realise what its about and then ignore the specific wording.

As for the lack of incentive to lie thats a very feeble point. People signed the Oregon Petition using the names of the Spice Girls and Star Wars characters, what could their motivation have been?

You haven't actually asked me any questions (see below for copies of your posts towards me)

The documentation explains the potential flaws in the survey. Your two concerns (that respondents wouldn't understand what constitutes "capable of giving consent" or would lie) are not considered to have a statistically significant impact on the survey findings.

If anything the technical documentation makes it clear that there are still concerns about under-reporting even within the survey. The section about victim/non victim rates where another adult is present during completion of the survey is particularly worrying.


I suppose that second para counts as a request - the information about the restructuring of the IPV/SSA questions is linked to in the post you just quoted.

There's one question here - was I incorrect to assume it was rhetorical?

Well one was a question: if the best legal minds in the country and indeed the world cannot definitively say when someone is capable of giving valid legal consent how can we expect someone who has no legal education to decide and answer that question accurately?

The second was more a point; I essentially said what's to stop people lying and all you've said is the restructured the survey but it doesn't really answer the question



Posted from TSR Mobile

Well one was a question: if the best legal minds in the country and indeed the world cannot definitively say when someone is capable of giving valid legal consent how can we expect someone who has no legal education to decide and answer that question accurately?

The second was more a point; I essentially said what's to stop people lying and all you've said is the restructured the survey but it doesn't really answer the question
Posted from TSR Mobile

The mystery of whether someone is capable of giving consent isn't really an issue that causes any significant statistical concerns through the methodology of the survey. It isn't something that rigorous testing has revealed causes confusion to the point where the answers would be inaccurate.

There's nothing to stop people from lying - but then there is absolutely no incentive to lie in favour of making up that you're a rape victim. By the point you get to the IPV/SSA section you're on average 35-40 minutes through filling out a survey and will have an understanding that every time they state that they're a victim of crime they're ending up spending an additional 10-20 minutes answering additional questions.

From experience completing the survey the incentive is very much still to lie through non-disclosure of IPV/SSA - which the stats on the technical report demonstrate. There's extremely strong evidence in the technical report to suggest that the CSEW is still under-reporting victim rates for IPV/SSA. And as I explained the wording of the question is strongly suggestive towards non-disclosure where the victim feels they didn't protest "enough".

Your criticisms of the survey show a very poor understanding of survey methodology, market research practice or the willingness to educate yourself about a methodology before you dismiss it.

You're really not debating in good faith

Why would they lie?
You also realize youhave used figures from the same survey to argue your point...

Posted from TSR Mobile

From what I read through on the links you provided there is nothing that says that the specific question on whether someone can determine their capability to give consent has been addressed. The simple fact of the matter is it will always be an opinion and that skews statistics.



You've yet again left out half of the wording of the question in an attempt to strengthen your point. The question also says 'or where you lacked the capacity to consent'. If you really think people need an incentive to lie you're very naive



Why would someone sign a petition about global warming using the name of a star wars character? Who can say why people lie.

Which figures from this survey have I used?



Posted from TSR Mobile

Domestic abuse figures.

So you're implying all these women are lying with absolutely no evidence or motive for doing so.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Where did I quote domestic abuse statistics?

Not all, some will be telling the truth, others will be intentionally lying and others will be mistaken in believing they were raped.


Posted from TSR Mobile

And, as demonstrated in the technical report, a substantial number exceeding all of the above will chose not to disclose their experience of these types of crime.

The more I look at the question the more I realise it isn't fit for purpose anyway. You can penetrate, with your penis, the mouth anus or vagina of another without their consent or when they lack the ability to consent and still not be a rapist. So to use all of the people who answer yes to this question to create a number of rape victims is nonsensical


Posted from TSR Mobile

All these poor deluded men and women who weren't actually raped just feel like they were - we're so lucky you're here to explain how wrong we are

There's a straw over there that you can grab on to if you get tired of demonstrating you're bias with this one.

I'll happily support Kesha if she wishes to be free from her contract. Something about it is clearly restricting her freedom and whether that be Luke or the restrictions, she does not want to be a part of it; this is regardless of whether the rape allegations are true.
I find it slightly weird though, that someone like Zayn Malik could leave a group like One Direction without any restrictions or issues (only fans), whereas Kesha has to go through legal battles just to change producers.

I dislike the OP's thread title, what people like Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus are doing is supporting Kesha, it seems more that they can relate to the restrictions of a contract like this. Kesha's fans (if they still exist), I believe, are mostly female (the style of music etc.) and so she's obviously going to get more support from women than from men.

However, a point is made that Luke has not been convicted of any crime, and should be assumed to be innocent. People calling him a rapist are definitely just supporting Kesha without reading any facts of the case (and might want new music, I liked her latest album so it'd be nice to have music). Obviously, unlike a lot of cases, Luke cannot have privacy for his allegations, which may have been Kesha's intentions to have a legal battle over something else before bringing rape into it.

I'll happily support Kesha if she wishes to be free from her contract. Something about it is clearly restricting her freedom and whether that be Luke or the restrictions, she does not want to be a part of it; this is regardless of whether the rape allegations are true.
I find it slightly weird though, that someone like Zayn Malik could leave a group like One Direction without any restrictions or issues (only fans), whereas Kesha has to go through legal battles just to change producers.

I dislike the OP's thread title, what people like Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus are doing is supporting Kesha, it seems more that they can relate to the restrictions of a contract like this. Kesha's fans (if they still exist), I believe, are mostly female (the style of music etc.) and so she's obviously going to get more support from women than from men.

However, a point is made that Luke has not been convicted of any crime, and should be assumed to be innocent. People calling him a rapist are definitely just supporting Kesha without reading any facts of the case (and might want new music, I liked her latest album so it'd be nice to have music). Obviously, unlike a lot of cases, Luke cannot have privacy for his allegations, which may have been Kesha's intentions to have a legal battle over something else before bringing rape into it.

She brought up rape in 2011 and in the same year swore under oath that she was not raped by him. She is now being counter sued by Luke for defamation.

Posted from TSR Mobile

The point is that while being accused of rape is pretty scary, it's very rarely as scary as actually being raped. It's about perspective

I'll happily support Kesha if she wishes to be free from her contract. Something about it is clearly restricting her freedom and whether that be Luke or the restrictions, she does not want to be a part of it; this is regardless of whether the rape allegations are true.
I find it slightly weird though, that someone like Zayn Malik could leave a group like One Direction without any restrictions or issues (only fans), whereas Kesha has to go through legal battles just to change producers.

I dislike the OP's thread title, what people like Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus are doing is supporting Kesha, it seems more that they can relate to the restrictions of a contract like this. Kesha's fans (if they still exist), I believe, are mostly female (the style of music etc.) and so she's obviously going to get more support from women than from men.

However, a point is made that Luke has not been convicted of any crime, and should be assumed to be innocent. People calling him a rapist are definitely just supporting Kesha without reading any facts of the case (and might want new music, I liked her latest album so it'd be nice to have music). Obviously, unlike a lot of cases, Luke cannot have privacy for his allegations, which may have been Kesha's intentions to have a legal battle over something else before bringing rape into it.