Why is being a feminist considered to be so bad?
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It seems that some men are threatened by feminism and it's rise and others are just sexist or ill-informed.
Original post by cookiemonster15
Ok, so I know that there are an extreme group of females (radical feminists) who want to overpower men and all that stuff but that does not necessarily mean all feminists are like that!
I am a feminist myself and pride myself in being one. I would class myself as being under the dictionary meaning of a feminist 'someone who want equal rights for both sexes'
No I do not want to see the elimination of all males. I am not anti-male and I doubt many of the feminists are.
However all I see on here is people blaming feminists for everything. I can barely even utter the fact that I am a feminist without people cowering away from me. It seems to be especially bad on this site where I see irrelevant things being blamed on feminists or seeing crap how the first thing a guy looks for is a girl who is not a feminist and has to 'make them a sandwich whenever they feel like it'
Well, sorry, I'm not going to sit here and make you a sandwich for the pure reason that you demanded one.
So why is it overblowing and made to be seen as if it is the worst thing anyone could be? What is so bad about wanting to have equal rights for males and females?
People are just being so blinded by the media lately and I really don't see why something so small needs to be blown up into such proportion that people end up disliking feminists altogether.
Any Thoughts?
I am a feminist myself and pride myself in being one. I would class myself as being under the dictionary meaning of a feminist 'someone who want equal rights for both sexes'
No I do not want to see the elimination of all males. I am not anti-male and I doubt many of the feminists are.
However all I see on here is people blaming feminists for everything. I can barely even utter the fact that I am a feminist without people cowering away from me. It seems to be especially bad on this site where I see irrelevant things being blamed on feminists or seeing crap how the first thing a guy looks for is a girl who is not a feminist and has to 'make them a sandwich whenever they feel like it'
Well, sorry, I'm not going to sit here and make you a sandwich for the pure reason that you demanded one.
So why is it overblowing and made to be seen as if it is the worst thing anyone could be? What is so bad about wanting to have equal rights for males and females?
People are just being so blinded by the media lately and I really don't see why something so small needs to be blown up into such proportion that people end up disliking feminists altogether.
Any Thoughts?
because it's boring
achieve something if you want to be taken seriously
Original post by ZoëC
I'm sure there are many aspects of masculinity that you don't conform to, or wish you didn't have to, hence the gender spectrum - feminine ideals state that I should care ridiculously about my appearance, seek male companionship, be a 'domestic goddess', I find these to be fairly stupid, I mean, play sports, to like things I'm not supposed to, masculinity and femininity are very restricting.
There will always be people taking advantage of any favoured feature of their identity, rich people use their money, smart people (hopefully) use their brains. Attractive people use their looks - we need to remember that if that's all people value them for, of course they'll express it further. Women have been sexualised by society to the point that they now have decided to manipulate this and throw it back in the faces of the people who sexualise them. It is also important to note that men are capable of this too. This is not the case for everyone, and we cannot put a gender/sex on abuse, dominance, or seduction, because in the case of heterosexuals, there is an attraction, which can be manipulated either to simply 'help a relationship' or indeed to abuse someone's trust.
You have just explained why we need more male feminists. Just like a government, if you want to be represented, make it happen, just like women have by creating feminism. I have never met a man who feels he has no power over his own life simply because women now have a louder voice in society, and I'm sorry to hear that your experience is so disempowering to men.
There are more women than men in western society (compared to the world average) where you are most likely to find more people in higher education. Women have been identified as less advantaged in education and the workplace, so the government has chosen to use university to tackle this. This is slightly unfair, as it works on the premise that male students are more likely to be successful regardless of their education which is very presumptuous, the main aim was to encourage female representation in STEM subjects, because we have been pushed out of them, more so in historical settings. Status plays a large role in this too, higher status people are more likely to gain employment through connections, so university has become more middle class, and then the other issue is our school system, where male students as I know from experience, are profiled far more, and so ate tolerated less, and so schools do fail them, to the point where many also fail to even get into university. It is important to take into account the factors that influence statistics too.
"And surprise surprise, after being put through the feminist wringer it turns out all the stuff that sucks for men always turns out to be the fault of men, and to fit seamlessly into the patriarchy/pathological masculinity narrative."
I understand how you feel this way, and women suffer the same fate. Society is best kept when people are too busy with superficial competition over who looks best etc. If we take gender ideals as an example, men/women do contribute to their own suffering, by reinforcing these ideals, which they were unfortunate enough to have drilled into them, at no fault of their own. What needs to happen, is for people to question these ideals because why should we conform to them when they make us hate ourselves? the other issue, is a lack of communication between us all - if a man/woman is told that the group they desire sexually, as well as their peers, likes, or believes is acceptable, of course we will feel pressured to please them, no matter how little we actually care about them - its a game of conformity.
(sorry this is so long :s)
There will always be people taking advantage of any favoured feature of their identity, rich people use their money, smart people (hopefully) use their brains. Attractive people use their looks - we need to remember that if that's all people value them for, of course they'll express it further. Women have been sexualised by society to the point that they now have decided to manipulate this and throw it back in the faces of the people who sexualise them. It is also important to note that men are capable of this too. This is not the case for everyone, and we cannot put a gender/sex on abuse, dominance, or seduction, because in the case of heterosexuals, there is an attraction, which can be manipulated either to simply 'help a relationship' or indeed to abuse someone's trust.
You have just explained why we need more male feminists. Just like a government, if you want to be represented, make it happen, just like women have by creating feminism. I have never met a man who feels he has no power over his own life simply because women now have a louder voice in society, and I'm sorry to hear that your experience is so disempowering to men.
There are more women than men in western society (compared to the world average) where you are most likely to find more people in higher education. Women have been identified as less advantaged in education and the workplace, so the government has chosen to use university to tackle this. This is slightly unfair, as it works on the premise that male students are more likely to be successful regardless of their education which is very presumptuous, the main aim was to encourage female representation in STEM subjects, because we have been pushed out of them, more so in historical settings. Status plays a large role in this too, higher status people are more likely to gain employment through connections, so university has become more middle class, and then the other issue is our school system, where male students as I know from experience, are profiled far more, and so ate tolerated less, and so schools do fail them, to the point where many also fail to even get into university. It is important to take into account the factors that influence statistics too.
"And surprise surprise, after being put through the feminist wringer it turns out all the stuff that sucks for men always turns out to be the fault of men, and to fit seamlessly into the patriarchy/pathological masculinity narrative."
I understand how you feel this way, and women suffer the same fate. Society is best kept when people are too busy with superficial competition over who looks best etc. If we take gender ideals as an example, men/women do contribute to their own suffering, by reinforcing these ideals, which they were unfortunate enough to have drilled into them, at no fault of their own. What needs to happen, is for people to question these ideals because why should we conform to them when they make us hate ourselves? the other issue, is a lack of communication between us all - if a man/woman is told that the group they desire sexually, as well as their peers, likes, or believes is acceptable, of course we will feel pressured to please them, no matter how little we actually care about them - its a game of conformity.
(sorry this is so long :s)
I disagree with a lot of what you said because I happen to see gender differently (I'd say that what defines masculinity and femininity comes from what men and women typically prefer, rather than the other way around), but that's by the by. The bit you said about STEM subjects is the bit I have a real issue with though.
Women have absolutely not been 'pushed out' of STEM subjects. In fact, it's rather the opposite. A huge scale study was done in the US, which tracked the number of women who wanted to work in STEM fields across the world. And the results showed two things. Firstly, the results said that there was absolutely no difference between the number of women who wanted to enter STEM fields across any of the 50-odd countries they surveyed. And secondly, they showed that the number of women in STEM fields actually decreased as the country became more gender equal. Now, this clearly suggests (I would go so far as to say more or less proves) that women, on some more fundamental level, have less of an interest in STEM fields than men do. Another example I'd give is Norway. According to some study (not really sure how they measured it tbh) Norway is the most gender equal society in the world. And yet, men and women choose exactly the same professions as they do in countries like Iraq of India.
There are vast swathes of evidence that clearly suggest that men and women make fundamentally different choices about profession, so I personally do not buy the 'women are pushed out of STEM fields' argument. I think it deserves to be put in the same box as the gender pay gap and rape culture, as a myth.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
I disagree with a lot of what you said because I happen to see gender differently (I'd say that what defines masculinity and femininity comes from what men and women typically prefer, rather than the other way around), but that's by the by. The bit you said about STEM subjects is the bit I have a real issue with though.
Women have absolutely not been 'pushed out' of STEM subjects. In fact, it's rather the opposite. A huge scale study was done in the US, which tracked the number of women who wanted to work in STEM fields across the world. And the results showed two things. Firstly, the results said that there was absolutely no difference between the number of women who wanted to enter STEM fields across any of the 50-odd countries they surveyed. And secondly, they showed that the number of women in STEM fields actually decreased as the country became more gender equal. Now, this clearly suggests (I would go so far as to say more or less proves) that women, on some more fundamental level, have less of an interest in STEM fields than men do. Another example I'd give is Norway. According to some study (not really sure how they measured it tbh) Norway is the most gender equal society in the world. And yet, men and women choose exactly the same professions as they do in countries like Iraq of India.
There are vast swathes of evidence that clearly suggest that men and women make fundamentally different choices about profession, so I personally do not buy the 'women are pushed out of STEM fields' argument. I think it deserves to be put in the same box as the gender pay gap and rape culture, as a myth.
Women have absolutely not been 'pushed out' of STEM subjects. In fact, it's rather the opposite. A huge scale study was done in the US, which tracked the number of women who wanted to work in STEM fields across the world. And the results showed two things. Firstly, the results said that there was absolutely no difference between the number of women who wanted to enter STEM fields across any of the 50-odd countries they surveyed. And secondly, they showed that the number of women in STEM fields actually decreased as the country became more gender equal. Now, this clearly suggests (I would go so far as to say more or less proves) that women, on some more fundamental level, have less of an interest in STEM fields than men do. Another example I'd give is Norway. According to some study (not really sure how they measured it tbh) Norway is the most gender equal society in the world. And yet, men and women choose exactly the same professions as they do in countries like Iraq of India.
There are vast swathes of evidence that clearly suggest that men and women make fundamentally different choices about profession, so I personally do not buy the 'women are pushed out of STEM fields' argument. I think it deserves to be put in the same box as the gender pay gap and rape culture, as a myth.
They have less of an interest because of societies sexism? It is sexist to suggest rape culture doesn't exist towards women, that is absolutely vile. As a man, you can't decide what isn't offensive/damaging towards women.
Original post by scrotgrot
OK, good so far...
Hot damn, you ruined it.
Hot damn, you ruined it.
are you really so ignorant as to not know that men traditionally have always held more power than women? women weren't even allowed to work or vote, for gods sake.
I agree that it is debatable whether there is currently a patriarchy (I don't really think there is) but I have no doubt about whether there traditionally was one. women were either subordinates or sexual prizes/trophies, to be honest.
not even seeing your own privilege is the definition of having privilege.
Original post by JackEDeakin
They have less of an interest because of societies sexism? It is sexist to suggest rape culture doesn't exist towards women, that is absolutely vile. As a man, you can't decide what isn't offensive/damaging towards women.
Genuinely can't decide if this is a joke or whether I'm being accused of sexism. Fingers crossed for the formed, if not I fear for the world
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Genuinely can't decide if this is a joke or whether I'm being accused of sexism. Fingers crossed for the formed, if not I fear for the world
You're a man. If anyone is joking here, I hope it's you. I don't understand how you get off thinking that you can decide what isn't damaging to women? Yes, I am accusing you of sexism because you're exploiting your privilege to decide that a woman isn't hard done by due to her gender.
Original post by samharrison
because it's boring
achieve something if you want to be taken seriously
achieve something if you want to be taken seriously
what a lazy response. feminism has achieved plenty but we still have 95% of the journey to go. what has complaining about feminism achieved? apart from trying to trigger people on the Internet.
anti-feminists are forever whining about how feminism isn't doing anything for men's rights. I've already explained why and how we ARE campaigning for men's rights too but, even if you think we aren't doing enough, why not be useful and try to do something for men's rights yourself?
don't sit back and complain that feminists aren't doing what you want, whilst saying they haven't achieved anything, and ignoring the fact that you're hardly achieving much for men either.
Original post by thermometer
what a lazy response. feminism has achieved plenty but we still have 95% of the journey to go. what has complaining about feminism achieved? apart from trying to trigger people on the Internet.
anti-feminists are forever whining about how feminism isn't doing anything for men's rights. I've already explained why and how we ARE campaigning for men's rights too but, even if you think we aren't doing enough, why not be useful and try to do something for men's rights yourself?
don't sit back and complain that feminists aren't doing what you want, whilst saying they haven't achieved anything, and ignoring the fact that you're hardly achieving much for men either.
anti-feminists are forever whining about how feminism isn't doing anything for men's rights. I've already explained why and how we ARE campaigning for men's rights too but, even if you think we aren't doing enough, why not be useful and try to do something for men's rights yourself?
don't sit back and complain that feminists aren't doing what you want, whilst saying they haven't achieved anything, and ignoring the fact that you're hardly achieving much for men either.
how do you know what i'm achieving?
it's not lazy
genuinely
achieve something
do something
anything
it's similar to poor people in general voting for socialist parties rather than bettering themselves
Original post by samharrison
how do you know what i'm achieving?
it's not lazy
genuinely
achieve something
do something
anything
it's similar to poor people in general voting for socialist parties rather than bettering themselves
it's not lazy
genuinely
achieve something
do something
anything
it's similar to poor people in general voting for socialist parties rather than bettering themselves
how do you propose poor people (ie people who have barely any MONEY) "better themselves" without trying to obtain better govt support/in the community...?
I suppose you also think homeless people should just buy a house.
Original post by thermometer
how do you propose poor people (ie people who have barely any MONEY) "better themselves" without trying to obtain better govt support/in the community...?
I suppose you also think homeless people should just buy a house.
I suppose you also think homeless people should just buy a house.
yes i do
Original post by samharrison
how do you know what i'm achieving?
it's not lazy
genuinely
achieve something
do something
anything
it's similar to poor people in general voting for socialist parties rather than bettering themselves
it's not lazy
genuinely
achieve something
do something
anything
it's similar to poor people in general voting for socialist parties rather than bettering themselves
But it is socialist parties that support women that are hard done by, who are worse off due to Conservative governments who target the disabled and women the most. The Junior Doctor contracts, for example, will damage women the most. This isn't fair. Left-Wing, socialist and green minded (in terms of green social justice), are the only parties that stand up for the rights of women (despite some of them, for example, Labour, having a track record of inequality.)
To the point, it isn't a choice to be poor, and if it was, why are more women poorer than men?
Original post by samharrison
fag
are you a troll who lives under a bridge?
Original post by thermometer
are you a troll who lives under a bridge?
no i'm not homeless ewww
Bunch of men-hating legbeards. I'm pro equality, not anti-man.
Original post by JackEDeakin
You're a man. If anyone is joking here, I hope it's you. I don't understand how you get off thinking that you can decide what isn't damaging to women? Yes, I am accusing you of sexism because you're exploiting your privilege to decide that a woman isn't hard done by due to her gender.
Okay, it is a joke, thank the Lord. You had me going for a moment there, 5/7
I suppose there's a wonderful irony in that I couldn't work out whether you were being serious or not
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Okay, it is a joke, thank the Lord. You had me going for a moment there, 5/7
I suppose there's a wonderful irony in that I couldn't work out whether you were being serious or not
I suppose there's a wonderful irony in that I couldn't work out whether you were being serious or not
*someone disagrees with you (god forbid)*
*must be a joke*
lol
ok
good one
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
I disagree with a lot of what you said because I happen to see gender differently (I'd say that what defines masculinity and femininity comes from what men and women typically prefer, rather than the other way around), but that's by the by. The bit you said about STEM subjects is the bit I have a real issue with though.
Women have absolutely not been 'pushed out' of STEM subjects. In fact, it's rather the opposite. A huge scale study was done in the US, which tracked the number of women who wanted to work in STEM fields across the world. And the results showed two things. Firstly, the results said that there was absolutely no difference between the number of women who wanted to enter STEM fields across any of the 50-odd countries they surveyed. And secondly, they showed that the number of women in STEM fields actually decreased as the country became more gender equal. Now, this clearly suggests (I would go so far as to say more or less proves) that women, on some more fundamental level, have less of an interest in STEM fields than men do. Another example I'd give is Norway. According to some study (not really sure how they measured it tbh) Norway is the most gender equal society in the world. And yet, men and women choose exactly the same professions as they do in countries like Iraq of India.
There are vast swathes of evidence that clearly suggest that men and women make fundamentally different choices about profession, so I personally do not buy the 'women are pushed out of STEM fields' argument. I think it deserves to be put in the same box as the gender pay gap and rape culture, as a myth.
Women have absolutely not been 'pushed out' of STEM subjects. In fact, it's rather the opposite. A huge scale study was done in the US, which tracked the number of women who wanted to work in STEM fields across the world. And the results showed two things. Firstly, the results said that there was absolutely no difference between the number of women who wanted to enter STEM fields across any of the 50-odd countries they surveyed. And secondly, they showed that the number of women in STEM fields actually decreased as the country became more gender equal. Now, this clearly suggests (I would go so far as to say more or less proves) that women, on some more fundamental level, have less of an interest in STEM fields than men do. Another example I'd give is Norway. According to some study (not really sure how they measured it tbh) Norway is the most gender equal society in the world. And yet, men and women choose exactly the same professions as they do in countries like Iraq of India.
There are vast swathes of evidence that clearly suggest that men and women make fundamentally different choices about profession, so I personally do not buy the 'women are pushed out of STEM fields' argument. I think it deserves to be put in the same box as the gender pay gap and rape culture, as a myth.
Understood, when I said STEM, it is clear that there is perhaps a gap in terms of the portrayal of these roles by women, because people do not expect women to take up these fields. Do you not believe there may be any extraneous factors here, I mean, by omission, in the sense that we weren't so actively encouraged to even get an education a few centuries ago. With regard to this, do you think there's a chance that by conditioning interests into people, they just wont diverge from that path, I know girls who were brought up as pink princesses, and they now wish to be mums, cooking, and have little ambition job wise. It is of course unfair to slate that lifestyle, but the environments we are brought up in, and the opportunities we are presented with are subconsciously partly gender based - take the experiments on how people treated a baby based on the perceived gender, or the lower expectation of daughters success when faced with a physical challenge.
I find it slightly disturbing that given the clear evidence in society, you would call rape culture a myth. With the common use of 'ting' to refer to women, to the porn industry - "it appeared to be giving young men “permission” to treat women as they see them being treated in porn." This alone is a cause for concern, when there are so many cases of rape in the porn industry, and the fact that there are companies dedicated to producing rape scenarios. Can you really say that there isn't a problem here, when all you have to do is look up a few 'songs' or talk to a few uni lads as they sing their anthems explicitly mentioning taking advantage of women? How many sex workers have to be raped and killed before its an issue?
My sister proves my point even more as she told me her year group had a talk about consent etc. who told these girls that if they say yes once, they can't back out, who told them that they can't be raped by a partner, who told them that backing out of unwanted sex was cowardly, 'frigid', a 'prude?
Original post by shreddingfish92
Bunch of men-hating legbeards. I'm pro equality, not anti-man.
Then you're a feminist.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Because there are a lot of crybabies that feminism upsets so much and they need their safe space.
Still devoid of any sense of irony, I see. On the rare occasion that I bother to un-spoiler a post by you, this is what I see.
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