Gove tells a string of fibs in his "why we should leave the EU" statement

I'm asking you to elaborate on that, clearly, since to proclaim a £93 billion trade deficit to be meaningless offhand is absurd. .

That's a rather facetious remark to make for someone so pedantic about sticking to the topic. The UK's situation with the EU is unique. In that regards referencing how the EU behaves with nations that are clearly not in any way shape or form in a similar situation as the UK is irrelevant..

How? You want us to stay in bed with people you think would have no qualms screwing us over if we were to leave? Now that's dumb.

The comparison was meant to be absurd to illustrate the stupidity of his example.

He talked SOLELY about Account deficit. A complete red herring.

The fact is that we depend more upon them than vice versa so we will be at a disadvantage in any trade talks.

You have ignored my
point as to how the EU is run and the fact that Germany has more to lose than we do if there were to be a trade war after Brexit.

I will quote your dumb argument once more. It doesn't require much elaboration. I have already done it twice

" we buy far more from Europe than we sell to".

Again, being in a unique position does not explain how the UK will stop companies from shifting to Europe to avoid trade barriers or how they will protect the loss in exports to the EU or through EU negotiated free trade deals.

As I stated before, IF the UK does negotiate a free trade deal, there would have to be significant concessions. Obviously, this is a point that you will have to ignore.

No, I wouldn't be stupid enough to be in that position in the first place. That is your problem.

OR maybe you should actually answer what I write instead of trying to insult me. You cannot though.

How is that a dumb argument? Do you literally need to be spoon fed concepts to be able to understand them?
You clearly think you're the smartest man in the room- it shouldn't be that hard for you to work out the logic behind that statement, which I've eve been kind enough to elaborate for you.

To quote your standard dismissal, 'you have no evidence of that'. The UK is one of the largest consumer markets in the world. If you can not see any incentives for the EU to try and retain an amicable relationship with the UK t.

You're swayed by the pessimism and the possibility of threats that currently don't exist. You're literally a hostage to fear. No, that's your problem not mine.

Well this is getting beyond tedious. I'll be here still ready to actually debate when you're willing to drop this patronising superiority complex attitude you have. I've been more than willing to answer points, even to the extent that I elaborate on them in-depth. That concept however seems to offend your sensibilities. Red herring blah blah moving the goal posts blah blah.

The pro-Brexit argument is not that there will be no loss whatsoever in trade and business with Europe. The argument is that those losses will be minimal, and more than made up by pursuing trade and business with the far more lucrative and faster growing world outside of the EU.

I have already stated why it is.

You then proceed to change your argument to include volume of trade.

I didn't say there were no incentives.

I said that the EU would be in a stronger position and would force the UK to give concessions.

Something that you continue to ignore because it doesn't fit into your narrative.

Nope. I am simply stating facts.

50% of our exports go to the EU. 20% of EU exports go to the UK.

Therefore, we are more dependent on them than vice versa. That isn't fear. That is the reality, you choose to ignore.

It is tedious, when you fail to answer any arguments.

You fail to answer the fact that the EU will be in a stronger bargaining position in any future negotiations and we will worse affected if trade barriers are put up.

Instead, you expect that they will keep the status quo and the undermine the entire point of having a Trade Union.

Again, you are guessing that trade loss with Europe will be minimal.

The Chinese don't care about opening their markets up to the UK.

So, when they dump their steel/solar panels on UK Markets, then the UK will have even less power to stop it being outside of the EU.

The USA have already said they are not interested in negotiating individual free trade deals.

I ignored it because you mischaracterized what i wrote.

Your second point is wrong anyway.

6.4% of German Exports go to the UK - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/deu/show/all/2013/
10% of UK Exports go to the Germany - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Destinations.

So, if there was a trade war and we stopped traded, we would lose 10% of our exports and they would lose 6.4%.

Therefore, we would lose more.

That is why looking at account deficit solely, is completely pointless. This is what I tried to explain earlier.

I hope you now accept that we will worse off in a trade war with the EU/Germany.

You've not. You made a meaningless comparison with Malta, and I pointed out why the comparison was silly.

You've got no evidence the EU would do that. Isn't that your favourite saying?
I've not 'ignored' anything. I'm debating it.

You fear the EU will retaliate with trade barriers if we leave the organisation, rather than come to an amicable settlement. That's fear. You fear the UK will not be able to make up any losses elsewhere. That's fear.

I've answered every point you've made. The fact you may disagree with my responses doesn't change that. .

Yes. I believe the EU will not put up trade tariffs with the UK. What do they benefit out of that?

Being in the EU is precisely why we are unable to stop China dumping steel on the UK. We have no mechanism of dealing with it on our own, but would as an 'independent' state.

I'm not surprised the Obama administration has taken that line. There'll be a new president by the end of the year. A Republican president would be more likely to negotiate in that respect.

What you fail to grasp is that 10% of UK exports is worth $47 billion and around 1.6% of UK GDP, while 6.4% of German exports is worth $89 billion and 2.5% of Germany's GDP.
The German economy is more dependent on exports. That's common knowledge. A huge trade deficit is massive leverage for the UK.

It is was "silly" because it was extension of your "silly" logic.

Well, you are ignoring it.

That is why you won't answer the basic point that the EU will be in a stronger position that the UK in any trade talks.

Instead you want to pretend that they will give Free Trade without concessions ( IE Free Movement) when it would undermine the entire concept of a trade union.

Not really. I don't live in the UK so I have no reason to fear it.

I am simply stating reality that the UK will be worse affected than the EU.

Again, another point you fail to address and instead you want to talk about "fear" and ignore the issue.

There are at least two points, that you have failed to answer even though I have brought it up multiple times.

The EU would benefit in the long term as more companies move into the EU to avoid the tariffs.

As I stated before, the EU is not going to give a Free Trade agreement without concessions since it would undermine the concept of a Union and they are in an economically stronger position that the UK.

As an independent state, China would have no issue in banning exports from the UK, which end your idea of FTA with them.

Again, something else made up without evidence.

Sure, that is my mistake.

I doubt it will have massive leverage because the Germans are not going to risk the more valuable Union for UK exports.

Even ignoring that issue, the rest of the Union would have to agree and I doubt that would happen.

That wasn't my logic. You've literally decided to make up a straw man argument to refute. I've elaborated and clarified my position, but you keep ignoring that instead to keep beating down an argument I'm not making.

I see what you're saying. I'm well aware the UK will likely lose the advantages of the EU economic and political union. That's pretty part and parcel of leaving an organisation. There's no reason however for the EU to be against a simply conventional free trade agreement.

Yes the UK will no longer have the 'perks' of the EU that comes with being a member, otherwise there's no point of being a member. But there is little reason to suggest they will put up trade tariffs and barriers and attempt to economically damage the UK.

Which are?

The UK will still export and need to import hundreds of billions a year regardless of how many companies choose to relocate headquarters or production. The value of the former is certainly much more than the latter.

The EU's economic strength relative to the UK doesn't matter. They can either both suffer with a trade war or both prosper with a free trade deal. All Germany will care about is ensuring it continues rinsing the UK out of a net of tens of billions of pounds a year in trade. The EU is not Putin's Russia. It does not play hardball..

The UK and China have just agreed a £14 billion trade and investment deal. They're not going to suddenly start banning UK imports. Why exactly do you think all the major nations in the world are going to suddenly turn their backs on the UK?.

First of all, I don't know why you keep playing this 'evidence' card..

Do you not subscribe to the theory/belief that Germany essentially calls the shots? I can see France being the main obstacle politically, but I think Ireland, Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Poland and Czech Republic will also favour an amicable settlement with the UK.

I ignored it because you mischaracterized what i wrote.

Your second point is wrong anyway.

6.4% of German Exports go to the UK - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/visualize/tree_map/hs92/export/deu/show/all/2013/
10% of UK Exports go to the Germany - http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/gbr/#Destinations.

So, if there was a trade war and we stopped traded, we would lose 10% of our exports and they would lose 6.4%.

Therefore, we would lose more.

That is why looking at account deficit solely, is completely pointless. This is what I tried to explain earlier.

I hope you now accept that we will worse off in a trade war with the EU/Germany.

Nope my second point was right and YOU were wrong. Germany has a hug.............us or not giving a flying f@ck about your ill informed views on the matter.