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Why you should VOTE STAY in the EU referendum

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Reply 60
Avatar for mes99
mes99
Original post by paul514
Ok so you can't say with any certainty that these people will be sent back.

You can't explain how they will practically send them back.

Could you explain why they would desire to send them back when they have similar numbers of their citizens in our country?


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They are not legally allowed to stay in their country of residence. Expatriates will be forced to apply for a visa/residency if they desire to stay. Most will. How many will be allowed to stay? We cannot know that for certain, but we do know it won't be everybody.

It is not a question of desire, it is a question of law, of taxation status. Their citizens living in the UK will most likely be forced to leave as well.

You're right in that I can't say most things with absolute certainty. But who can? Brexit is, after all, a leap in the dark. It's never been attempted before. What I can say, however, is that it will be an absolute mess for everybody involved.
ITT: Lefties getting BTFO

Why would anyone want to remain attached to the only stagnant trade bloc?

We managed perfectly well before 1973, we can do so again.
I am sorry but I want out of the EU.
We have rapists and murderers arriving from these countries and we can't get rid of them, due to their 'human rights' and before anyone else mentions it, yes I know we have British criminals as well, but why should the UK accept more of these lowlife scum, as if we haven't got enough of our own!. There are no checks being made anyone can enter and they do, frequently!

If tomorrow I decided to go to another country and took children with me, and they had to go to school, there is no way on earth they would hire a special teacher or translator that knew English in order to teach my kids. It wouldn't happen! So why should it happen here. Why do we bend over backwards to help others when no-one would do it for us. They should learn the language of the country they want to live in. That is what i would do.

As for the NHS, my mother who had cancer which is a life threatening disease, was on the waiting list for 6 months for treatment (which by the way, was considered short!).This is unacceptable to me. They pay their taxes and had to wait, because the list is so long and overcrowded.I believe in live and let live, but this situation to me is ridiculous. People that have been born and bred here are being treated like 2nd class citizens.

Jobs are definitely harder to find and the cost of living has increased. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Is this because of the EU, well in all honesty, I can't say they are to blame, but it doesn't seem to be helping in any way!

I think if we come out of the EU, we will struggle for a while for sure, but I think in the long run that the rewards would be worth it. We need to take back control.
This is of course my own personal opinion.
Original post by EleonoraK



If tomorrow I decided to go to another country and took children with me, and they had to go to school, there is no way on earth they would hire a special teacher or translator that knew English in order to teach my kids. It wouldn't happen! So why should it happen here. Why do we bend over backwards to help others when no-one would do it for us. They should learn the language of the country they want to live in. That is what i would do.



You mean this sort of state funded English language school wouldn't exist?

http://www.anglosection.com/
Original post by EleonoraK
x

Rapists and murderers? Branding EU migrants with such terminology sounds an awful lot like the way Donald Trump refers to Mexicans... might I ask why you think this is the case?

The schooling point is addressed by the above poster, so I won't comment too much on this, but English speaking schools do exist throughout the EU (and many EU students have to learn English anyway, which is more than can be said for Britain's lacklustre attempts at foreign languages).

I agree that the NHS is under a lot of strain, but I think the notion that British people are being treated as second class citizens is a bit ridiculous. I think it's also important to consider that the reason that net immigration is so high is because emigration has fell significantly, rather than immigration having increased massively. Immigration numbers today are quite similar to a few years ago (slightly higher, but this can be accounted for by natural population growth).

And really, you're blaming wage inequality on the EU? The EU has been instrumental in building workers rights to prevent them from being treated unfairly by employers! The cost of living increasing is just a product of a strong economy (everyone has more money so the price of goods increases). Introducing a proper living wage would help to combat this perhaps, but that has little to do with the EU.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by nulli tertius
You mean this sort of state funded English language school wouldn't exist?

http://www.anglosection.com/


Yes a state government funded school in another country would not expect you to send children to that school and not know the language. You would have to go private.
Original post by EleonoraK
Yes a state government funded school in another country would not expect you to send children to that school and not know the language. You would have to go private.


The link I have given, and you have ignored, is to a state funded English language school in France.
Original post by JRKinder
Rapists and murderers? Branding EU migrants with such terminology sounds an awful lot like the way Donald Trump refers to Mexicans... might I ask why you think this is the case?

The schooling point is addressed by the above poster, so I won't comment too much on this, but English speaking schools do exist throughout the EU (and many EU students have to learn English anyway, which is more than can be said for Britain's lacklustre attempts at foreign languages).

I agree that the NHS is under a lot of strain, but I think the notion that British people are being treated as second class citizens is a bit ridiculous. I think it's also important to consider that the reason that net immigration is so high is because emigration has fell significantly, rather than immigration having increased massively. Immigration numbers today are quite similar to a few years ago (slightly higher, but this can be accounted for by natural population growth).

And really, you're blaming wage inequality on the EU? The EU has been instrumental in building workers rights to prevent them from being treated unfairly by employers! The cost of living increasing is just a product of a strong economy (everyone has more money so the price of goods increases). Introducing a proper living wage would help to combat this perhaps, but that has little to do with the EU.


I am not branding all EU migrants as rapists and murderers, and to compare me to Donald Trump is insulting. I am half and half myself so I am definitely not racist!. I said there are NO CHECKS being put in place so that they can enter and commit crimes and when we do find them we can't get rid of them due to the human rights fiasco. Also the threat of terrorists in the UK is very high. I am extremely concerned about security and as I have already mentioned, we have enough of our own!
The EU is not doing anything about these things.

We shall have to agree to disagree
Original post by nulli tertius
The link I have given, and you have ignored, is to a state funded English language school in France.


The link you have given is only for France, how about the rest of Europe?

As I mentioned before, you would have to go private and pay!
Original post by EleonoraK
The link you have given is only for France, how about the rest of Europe?

As I mentioned before, you would have to go private and pay!


Do we have to private links to schools in every single EU country? I have better things to do, get real. You believed that only the UK provides support for people who don't speak the native language, which is utterly, factually wrong. You've been given one example, ignored it, and demanded more.

You're the one asking for change and you're the one making this ridiculous assertion, so you're the one that needs to provide some evidence. You've provided exactly none, you're just repeating angry lies and propaganda.
Original post by mes99
They are not legally allowed to stay in their country of residence. Expatriates will be forced to apply for a visa/residency if they desire to stay. Most will. How many will be allowed to stay? We cannot know that for certain, but we do know it won't be everybody.

It is not a question of desire, it is a question of law, of taxation status. Their citizens living in the UK will most likely be forced to leave as well.

You're right in that I can't say most things with absolute certainty. But who can? Brexit is, after all, a leap in the dark. It's never been attempted before. What I can say, however, is that it will be an absolute mess for everybody involved.


The idea that suddenly millions of people will be forced to leave the uk is hilarious it simply won't happen.

No one is going to be forced to leave on either side it's completely undesirable and impossible to achieve even if it were desirable.



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Reply 71
Avatar for poem09
poem09
2
Original post by JordanL_
Do we have to private links to schools in every single EU country? I have better things to do, get real. You believed that only the UK provides support for people who don't speak the native language, which is utterly, factually wrong. You've been given one example, ignored it, and demanded more.

You're the one asking for change and you're the one making this ridiculous assertion, so you're the one that needs to provide some evidence. You've provided exactly none, you're just repeating angry lies and propaganda.


The link you have provided refers to a private school where you have to pay fees. It is not state funded. Try again.
Original post by paul514
The idea that suddenly millions of people will be forced to leave the uk is hilarious it simply won't happen.

No one is going to be forced to leave on either side it's completely undesirable and impossible to achieve even if it were desirable.


You don't know that, though. You're vaguely speculating and then telling everyone it's fact. That's called lying. You have absolutely no idea what will happen, and there's been no discussion of it among the leave campaign.

Original post by poem09
The link you have provided refers to a private school where you have to pay fees. It is not state funded. Try again.


I didn't provide the link. Again, no. I have better things to do than to do your research for you. If you're going to make these ridiculous, wild assertions when you're the one demanding change, it's your responsibility to provide evidence.
Reply 73
Avatar for poem09
poem09
2
Original post by EleonoraK
The link you have given is only for France, how about the rest of Europe?

As I mentioned before, you would have to go private and pay!


Btw, the link you have for France you have to pay fees. It not free and government funded.
Original post by JordanL_
You don't know that, though. You're vaguely speculating and then telling everyone it's fact. That's called lying. You have absolutely no idea what will happen, and there's been no discussion of it among the leave campaign.



I didn't provide the link. Again, no. I have better things to do than to do your research for you. If you're going to make these ridiculous, wild assertions when you're the one demanding change, it's your responsibility to provide evidence.


Provide evidence to show that the opposite is the case.


No one can


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by EleonoraK
I am not branding all EU migrants as rapists and murderers, and to compare me to Donald Trump is insulting. I am half and half myself so I am definitely not racist!. I said there are NO CHECKS being put in place so that they can enter and commit crimes and when we do find them we can't get rid of them due to the human rights fiasco. Also the threat of terrorists in the UK is very high. I am extremely concerned about security and as I have already mentioned, we have enough of our own!
The EU is not doing anything about these things.

We shall have to agree to disagree
Well when you write "we have rapists and murderers arriving from these countries" it's quite hard not to associate such suggestions with Trump. And you know that migrants from any country, including those from outside the EU, could commit crimes at any time, right? Of course, as you mention, there are checks for external migrants, but they can't possibly hope to effectively screen all would-be criminals out. The majority of EU migrants come for economic reasons anyway, not to commit crime, so this is a poor argument regardless. Also, I think I've mentioned it before, but being in the EU is actually beneficial for fighting terrorism because it allows our security services to link up more effectively and share intelligence. This has been confirmed by our own security officials as being beneficial, and would be in jeopardy if we left the EU.

And you haven't addressed the other points that I've made.
Original post by EleonoraK
I am sorry but I want out of the EU.
We have rapists and murderers arriving from these countries and we can't get rid of them, due to their 'human rights' and before anyone else mentions it, yes I know we have British criminals as well, but why should the UK accept more of these lowlife scum, as if we haven't got enough of our own!. There are no checks being made anyone can enter and they do, frequently!

If tomorrow I decided to go to another country and took children with me, and they had to go to school, there is no way on earth they would hire a special teacher or translator that knew English in order to teach my kids. It wouldn't happen! So why should it happen here. Why do we bend over backwards to help others when no-one would do it for us. They should learn the language of the country they want to live in. That is what i would do.

As for the NHS, my mother who had cancer which is a life threatening disease, was on the waiting list for 6 months for treatment (which by the way, was considered short!).This is unacceptable to me. They pay their taxes and had to wait, because the list is so long and overcrowded.I believe in live and let live, but this situation to me is ridiculous. People that have been born and bred here are being treated like 2nd class citizens.

Jobs are definitely harder to find and the cost of living has increased. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Is this because of the EU, well in all honesty, I can't say they are to blame, but it doesn't seem to be helping in any way!

I think if we come out of the EU, we will struggle for a while for sure, but I think in the long run that the rewards would be worth it. We need to take back control.
This is of course my own personal opinion.


What a load of nonsense. We already have more domestic rapists than immigrant rapists, do you even know what percentage of immigrants do these things? You're a victim of right wing media scaremongering. The immigrants, like EVERY SINGLE GROUP OF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD, consist of a tiny percentage of bad people and a majority of good people - there is no difference between them and any other group of people. And BS there are checks on immigrants, so many.

The NHS problem you have is not the EU's fault its Cameron's.
Reply 77
Avatar for mes99
mes99
Original post by paul514
The idea that suddenly millions of people will be forced to leave the uk is hilarious it simply won't happen.

No one is going to be forced to leave on either side it's completely undesirable and impossible to achieve even if it were desirable.



Posted from TSR Mobile


I'm not sure you do quite understand how the rule of law works.

And if you think that France, Germany and the EU would be happy to let the UK go gentle into that good night, you are seriously mistaken.
Original post by mes99
I'm not sure you do quite understand how the rule of law works.

And if you think that France, Germany and the EU would be happy to let the UK go gentle into that good night, you are seriously mistaken.


Lovely platitude but answer the points


Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by JordanL_
correct people when you see them spreading lies or misinformation.

Go on then :wink:

A lot of people are on the fence, and you'll probably see a lot of fearmongering and outright lies from people that want to leave. Stuff like "our NHS is failing", "the UK is overpopulated", "we give the EU money and never getting anything back", and so on. The "Leave" crowd seem to be very loud, so it's easy to believe them, but please ask questions and look for statistics before you believe what they say.

Arguably, there's far more scaremongering from the 'stay' campaign, as we simply don't know what would happen if we leave. There's lots of speculation and rhetoric, but no one can say with certainty. Playing on that uncertainty is probably the greatest card in the 'stay' campaign's hand.





1. Immigration: The EU allows for free migration between all EU countries. The people wanting to leave will tell you that lots of people come over from poorer countries to do unskilled labour, so they take our jobs, or that lots just come to take our benefits.

Claims of immigrants coming from the EU to take our benefits are outright lies. This study by UCL found that EU migrants contributed 34% more in taxes than they took in benefits. It also found, "In contrast, over the same period, the total of UK natives’ tax payments were 11% lower than the transfers they received." This essentially means that the average migrant is contributing more to the economy than the average British citizen.

There's also a myth that most immigrants are unskilled workers - people try to say that, while EU migrants work, they're taking unskilled jobs from natives instead of filling jobs we need. But the same UCL study found that 32% of EU migrants had a university education, compared to 21% for UK natives - so the truth is that they actually are filling skilled jobs that we need filled.

As for unemployment, the number of UK natives in work has increased over the last few years. The number of employed natives is increasing alongside the number of migrants. The migrants aren't taking our jobs - they're spurring growth and creating jobs.


32% of EU migrants holding a degree doesn't mean those migrants are all (or even mostly) working in graduate level jobs. One issue is that migrants from Eastern Europe are prepared to work for wages that simply aren't sustainable for English people, and by doing so they depress wages or simply make certain jobs unrealistic for people building their lives in England. I used to work on a farm alongside a large gang of Bulgarians who were employed for about 5 months for harvest work. They were nice enough people mostly, but they were working for minimum wage and living in Portakabins. However, the payback for that was the money they saved was way, way in excess of what they could earn in Bulgaria. Quite a few of them planned to finish the harvest season and then go back to Bulgaria and just not work for the rest of the year - that was how far their savings would go. I'm sure plenty of English people would be prepared to put up with those conditions for 5 months to spend the next 7 months living fairly comfortably without working, but that just isn't going to happen in England.

2. Giving money to the EU:
The UK (and all EU countries) pay an EU membership fee. But a lot of people don't seem to realize that we get a large amount of that money back. In 2013, Nigel Farage claimed that Britain pays £20 billion per year for EU membership. We actually paid £18 billion, and we received over half of it back.

The majority of the rest went to the EU budget. The EU uses this to pay for a lot of stuff that benefits the entire EU. For example, £4 billion went to funding scientific research in the UK, and £53 billion to agriculture subsidies. A lot of this benefits us directly, but it also helps the rest of the EU grow, which in turn helps us by increasing trade.

The EU has been particularly important in tackling Climate Change, and a large portion of the budget goes toward funding low-carbon technologies and climate change research. The budget has also provided funding for climate change adaptation for EU member states - paying for flood defenses, for example.

A ton of science and technology projects in the UK and abroad are also able to happen due to EU funding. [url="https://erc.europa.eu/projects-and-results/erc-funded-projects?f[0"]Over 2200 UK research projects have benefited from EU funding and grants. This is more than any other EU member state, by a large margin.

There's no doubt we make a substantial net contribution to the EU. Whether the indirect benefits of membership equate to that amount is very much up for debate. It also appears that you've engaged in a bit of double accounting with regards to scientific research and agricultural subsidies - in one of your links agricultural subsidies accounts for the vast majority of UK receipts from the EU, so to suggest we receive half of it back PLUS scientific funding, agricultural subsidies etc. is misleading at best. Additionally, you're on pretty shaky ground to suggest that the CAP is beneficial to the UK - as you've identified, it's one of the largest elements of EU spending but the UK's farming sector is relatively small so receives little of the funding. That's the reason the UK has the EU rebate - if we didn't, we would be paying proportionally 14 times more for our EU membership than France, despite similar sized economies.


3. We trade a lot with the EU:
The EU has policies in place to increase trade between member states. These policies, like the Common Customs Tariff, will often make it more favourable to trade with other EU states than with external states. So, essentially, other EU countries will be more likely to trade with us than with China or the US, which benefits us economically.

In 2014, 44% of UK exports were to the EU. If we were to leave the EU, this would almost definitely decrease, as we become less favourable to trade with. This would impact the economy. 15% of our GDP (the total money coming into the country, a measure of economic strength) comes from EU exports. That's £300 billion.

The strength of our economy determines how much money the government can spend on things like schools and the NHS, and it also plays a part in determining how much money people make on average. A strong economy benefits all of us, and if our economy suffers, we all do.
We do, but that trade wouldn't dry up magically if we left, although it could conceivably become harder. Additionally, the free market is something of a misnomer, as there are significant barriers to entry depending on where a company is based, such as minimum wage legislation. I used to work for a manufacturing firm that subcontracted a lot of fabrication and we had a lot of problems getting prototype parts made. We wanted them made locally for reasons of speed, but the local fabricators refused or quoted enormously high prices. Why? They used to be quite happy to do so, despite making virtually no profit on prototypes, because they could be reasonably sure that they'd get the production contracts for at least some of those components. Now, they simply cannot compete with the prices that Eastern European fabricators can offer, as overheads/taxes/wages in the UK are much higher. As a member of the EU, the UK can't impose additional tariffs to compensate for this disparity. Another example is pig farming - many UK pig farms are going out of business due to European legislation on animal welfare not being properly enforced. This was the first article I found, but I have read much more in depth articles in the past if you want to go looking for them.

5. A lot of our rights come from the EU:
And I'm not just referring to our Human Rights. The EU provides us with some of the best consumer rights in the world. Because of EU laws, you're entitled to a 14-day return period on everything you buy, retailers have to provide you with a certain amount of clear information on products they sell, and electronic products you buy all have to meet certain safety standards. This makes things safer for you as a consumer, and easier for businesses as they only need to meet one set of regulations.
That's something of a double edged sword. The cost of complying with EU regulations is very high, and that cost is ultimately passed on to the consumer. I've been involved with standards compliance work and the amount of work involved is simply staggering. It's also a significant barrier to startups; the company I used to work for was started in a lockup garage, its first product was built and sold on the day it was founded, and it has grown to be one of the largest manufacturing companies worldwide in its sector. Nowadays, to build that one product would require purchasing tens of thousands of pounds worth of standards and many weeks of work to show compliance. One example where EU standards are definitely not in the interests of the consumer are boat trailers. A few years ago the EU introduced standards for trailers which are verging on the nonsensical for boat trailers, which has pushed the cost of trailers way up. Was there a problem previously? No. Unfortunately many European regulations are written by people with a limited understanding at best of the industry they are trying to regulate.

As you can no doubt tell, I am something of a Eurosceptic, but I am currently undecided as to which way I would vote. There are a number of very useful benefits to being within the EU, such as the freedom of movement you mentioned. However, one of the most common themes I have seen with regards to the debate is the implication that criticism of the EU is founded on ignorance or stupidity. That's utterly false.

As a side note, I realise some of the examples I have provided are very specific. That's simply because they are issues I have had personal experience with - there are many, many more out there.
(edited 8 years ago)

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