Asiatic lion vs Bengal tiger
Poll
Who would win?
When most people think of lions, they think soley african, but lions have traveled past the continent and into several others as well in the past, the asiatic lion who reached the same places there held tigers, most notedly, india:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion
And the bengal tiger:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_tiger
As showed, tigers have a natural corridor in ramthanbore, which is quite close to the state of gujarat, where lions are, so in a hypothetical situation, what would happen in a conflict between two of the most powerful of predators in india.
Some additional info:
! Now for the Lion of Kattywar or central Gezerat. In the B. S. M. for July, 1840, is a record of one there slain, of which we read : -——“ This Lion was 9 feet, with flowing mane, and altogether much more bulky than any Tiger I have killed
lion more bulky tiger&f=false
Head of the smithsonian Biologist John seidensticker:
it has been suggested that the tiger may have a proportionally smaller head than the lion.
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...a=X&ei=qQCWVL3fDcbxoATVx4GwBg&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
Captive conflict accounts in india:
The Pioneer Mail and Indian Weekly News
LIONESS KILLS TIGRESS. - NAGPUR, 26TH October. In the Maharaj Bagh, while transferring wild animals from one cage to another, a lioness attacked a tigress and killed her. The animal was subsequently captured and placed in its cage.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22In+the+Maharaj+Bagh%2C+while+transferring+wild+animals+from+one+cage+to+another%2C+a+lioness+attacked%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&oq=%22In+the+Maharaj+Bagh%2C+while+transferring+wild+animals+from+one+cage+to+another%2C+a+lioness+attacked%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...3856.9093.0.9922.2.1.0.1.0.0.258.258.2-1.1.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.xZLJjaEMlf4
Zoo tiger surrcumbs presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday of Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z7cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3206,4386439&dq=zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion&hl=en
"One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date
&s_trackval=GooglePM
Double edged sword: Both the tiger and the lion population would be affectedThe NGO claims that the prey base of Kuno is limited, and is not sufficient even for the lions that are to be shifted. So, there would be intense competition between the lions and tigers, straying from Ranthambore, for the same prey. However, it is not just the relocated lions that would be at a disadvantage, as the tigers in Ranthambore could be equally impacted. As competition for prey increases, the lions may venture out of Kuno in search of food and enter Ranthambore through the shared corridor. This would then reduce the prey base of the tigers. Not only that, lions may even attack and kill tigers.http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/tiger-lio
Kailash Sankhala Indian naturalist
Indian Expert Damoo Dhotre:
http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/performers/damudhotre.html
THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre.
http://www.google.com/search?q=THE+FAMOUS+Dhotre%2C+an+Indian+animal+trainer+lion+tiger++site%3Anews.google.com%2Fnewspapers&ie=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri
"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search
Jam sahib of nawanagar:
http://www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMagazine/2007/July/3-8.pdf
Ten species olfelida are found S. of the Himalaya, including the lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, and the true cats (F.catvt).
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA203&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&output=text
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayas
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19520508&id=fwNZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Jk8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3615,3750010&hl=en
And a different one:
Besides this weird notion, there is also the terrific enthusiasm for
sound. During one of the stretches, the Halliburton voice tells of
looking down into a pit and perceiving an Indian lion, supposed to be
one of the very few in existence, giving battle to a tiger. It is a
thrilling fight, but Mr. Futter has overdone the inoculation of sound.
On other occasions the scenes are silent and later one hears the
breaking of a tree as it is pushed over by an elephant.
http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9D03E5DD1538E333A2575BC0A9639C946294D6CF
WILD
An account which took place at india in Surat:
The fauna there includes a few tigers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=635DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&dq=surat+india+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jFyXVOSwDInUoAS60IGYAw&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA
Tapi river is the home to the natural habitats of many wild animals snakes and many more.
http://www.ecoindia.com/rivers/tapi.html
One of the biggest tigers recorded came from surat:
https://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299&dq=surat+india+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xl-XVID_FoKvoQSgkoHABQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzgK
JUNGLES OF INDIA THRILLING SCENE
Our destination was the province called Guzerat, which is a large peninsula northwest of Bombay. We could have proceeded thither in a short time by sea, but Mr. Barrill took the circuitous land route, in order to see the country. At the end of the first day's journey we en camped at the base of a range of mountains " the height of which I supposed was fifteen hundred feet. These mountains extend entirely through western India. In the vicinity of our encampment, they were steep and stony. On aU sides were forests of bamboo, presenting a straighter and more regular aspet, than any woodland I had ever HINDOO HABITS….
At Domus, Mr. Barrill disposed of his tusks to a Parsee merchant, for about one-half the price he could have obtained if he had conveyed them to Surat. But he was glad to ged rid of the burden. Domus -n-as a small town. The inhabitants were courteous enough, but we understood that some of them were strongly suspected of being engaged in piracy. Our servants informed us that the Parsees were very numerous in the country northward, and their enterprise was the chief source of its prosperity. At noon the second day after our arrival at Domus, we came within sight of the celebrated city of Surat. Its towers and pagodas gave it an imposing appearance… but as we approached the walls age and decay were strikingly evident. This city is situated on the Taptee, about tvrenty miles from the point where the mouth, or bay, empties into the gulf of Cambay. It is about six miles in circumference, and shaped like a bow, the cord being the Taptee, having near its centre, a small castle garrisoned by a few sepoys and Europeans. On ofner sides, the town is surrounded by a wall, flanked with semicircular towers. Without the walls we found some good European houses, formerly occupied by the French, but now, the residence of English officers; but the houses within the town were very inferior, consisting only of timber frames filled up with bricks, their upper stories projecting over each other. The streets were narrow and irregular. Only small boats, called ketches, can ascend the river to Surat " yet the city once had a very extensive* commerce.
We remained three days in Surat. During this period, Mr. Barrill made some valuable acquaintance among the English, and purchased some small articles which he deemed necessary for our comfort. We found that nearly all the business of the city was carried on by the Parsees " the Hindoos being generally as indolent as they were superstitious…
The jungle was beautiful and luxuriant " the dark green foliage of the bamboo contrasting finely with the lighter verdure of the palm and the blossoms of numerous other trees for which I had no name. The encounter of the day before had left an impression not easily effaced, and we took care to avoid, as far as we could, consistently with our designs upon the game, the thickest jungle, where it was difficult to see beyond a few yards on each side. The Hindoos were all eye as they marched, and I thought, that each moment, one of them shuddered as if he expected the terrible tiger to spring from the bushes and dash him to the ground. We had proceeded about six or seven niiles, without meeting with any animals, deemed worthy of our rifles, and were growing more confident in our march. ^Lr. Barrill and I had fallen into conversation about the contrast between the forests of India and South Africa, when a tremendous roar, and the shrieks of the Hindoos, rang fearfully in our ears, and brought our shuddering horses to a halt. The case flashed on our eyes we turned. The Parsees stood as if paralyzed " the Hindoos shrieked and danced, and seemed senseless with fright. Hurrying away through the jungle we could occasionally catch a glimpse of the striped hack of a tiger ' and a faint shriek told us what he had dared to seize foi his meal. Humanity and our own burning thirst for distinction in this region, new to us, banished all feelings uf dread, and we started away, with ready rifles in pursuit, the rest of the party following, not knowing what else to do for safety. The tiger had disappeared beneath the thick foliage of the bushes, and the cessation of the victim's shrieks left us no clue to the ferocious animal's whereabouts.
When suddenly, within about fifty yards, sounded the tremendous voice of a lion " a sound we could never forget; and a succession of awful growls, snaps, and loud rustics among the bushes, led us to believe that the two tyrants of the forests were contending for the mastery. Anxious to gain a view of such a fearful struggle, we pressed forward^ till emerging from a clump of bushes, we beheld almost at our horse's feet, the lion and tiger rolling over and over, in a conflict which only death could interrupt. The mangled Hindoo was lying senseless upon his face, within a few yards of the ferocious combatants. We did not fire, but reserved our bullets till the conflict should destroy one of the beasts.
It was a horrible struggle. The tiger was quite as large as the lion, and much quicker in his movements. But the lion showed a decided superiority of strength, and his great mane effectually covered his head. Still his hack and sides were torn hy the tiger's claws, and for some minutes the contest was doubtful. Both possessed equal courage and determination, and no disposition was evinced to have a drawn battle. It was one of the compensations of nature. The tyrants of the woods, who had so long preyed upon the weaker animals, were now paying each other in due form. Draw near, ye ghosts of mangled cattle, stags and lesser beasts, to gloat over your revenge! Our prescence seemed a matter of indifference to the combatants, so intent were they in that struggle of strength and activity. But the endurance of the lion prevailed " seizing the tiger by the throat, he turned it on its back, and with his strong claws tore open its belly, and, thus put an end to its ferocious life. Hail, king of beasts, for so thou art I This had scarcely been achieved when simultaneotis balls from our rifles, stretched the lion beside the foe whom he had vanquished, and their blood mingled among the grass….
We immediately dismounted, hastened to the wounded Hindoo, while his companions busied themselves in striking their spears into the helpless tiger " and patting the head of the lion. Raising the poor fellow, we found that he was so dreadfully bitten and torn about the throat and breast, that his chance of living was but small. He could not speak. After a short time spent in reeking their cowardly vengeance on the tiger, his Hindoo companions said that they had quite enough of hunting tigers on foot, and that they would take the wounded man back to Elaw as quickly as possible. Mr. Barrill agreed with them that it was the best course they could pursue, and gave them the skin of the tiger to take with them as a kind compensation for their fright. They constructed a rude litter of branches, on which they laid their wounded companion " then skinned the tigers-cutting ofi" his head " while our Parsees were skinning the lion, and then bade us adieu. The lion was not as large as those we had killed in Africa " His skin was of a yellowish hue, the mane being some shades deeper. In other respects, there seemed to be no difference between the lions of Asia and Africa.
The tiger was a beautiful animal, the skin being striped as splendidly as that of the African zebra. The form resembled that of the common cat. The eyes were of a greenish grey color, having a ferocious glare " and the appearance of the teeth and claws was enough to send a thrill of terror through a person of timid nerves. The roar of this monster, which was the first intelligence of his presence we had received, resembled that of the lion, but was not so deep and grand. When enraged as it was during the conflict with the lion, it makes a shrill cry which pierces the ear in a most disagreeable way.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/209
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/211
It states non-fiction:
http://www.readanybook.com/author/peregrine-herne-10860
It states it’s a autobiography:
http://www.gregorrarebooks.com/cgi-bin/gregor/19933.html?id=DHdpg6en
Here is Herne being noted as one of the first hunters of his era:
http://www.shakariconnection.com/early-african-hunter-books.html
Another artifact in that same area of gujarat shows a lion defeating a tiger (bottom left)
Top left: Elephant and rhino fight
Top middle: Lion looking out on a rockery
Top right: Jungle scene
Bottom left: Lion biting the neck of a tiger
Bottom middle: Lion chasing a blue bull
Bottom right: Running sambar
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=4886609
There is also a fight in india:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM
Most think it is a british film, but its actually a american film:
http://www.chicagofilmarchives.org/collections/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/2728
Castle Films was a home-movie distributor founded in California by former newsreel
cameraman Eugene W. Castle (1897–1960) in 1924. The company originally produced business and advertising films. By 1931 it had moved its principal office to New York City. In 1937, Castle branched out into 8 mmand 16 mm home movies, buying newsreel footage and old theatrical films for home use. Castle's first home movie was a newsreel of theHindenburg explosion.[1] That same year, Castle launched his "News Parade" series, a year-in-review newsreel; travelogues followed in 1938. Castle also released sports films, animal adventures, and "old time" movies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Films
Ganga well lion
Gangaikonda Cholapuram Temple Lion Water well
The ganges yamuna
It is known from historical evidence that the 16th and 17th centuries, Ganga-Yamuna region was covered with dense forests. These forests wild elephant , buffalo , rhino, lion, tiger and bison was the victim of
https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE_%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80
31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”) A drama at the Ganges.
I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”
“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”
We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.
Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.
“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”
“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”
“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”
“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!
The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.
With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.
The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.
The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.
He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.
eA tiger and lion fight near bangalore, the tiger is bitten terribly in
the throat before both injured go seperate ways:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1302&dat=18891221&id=8pJRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7172,7165143&hl=en
What I find quite interesting is, every place a lion has fought and killed a tiger, it is on the map of ashoka:
Much people think that the lion was a rare animal in india, atleast overall wise, even some indian scholars and experts say that lions and tigers would not meet because they both prefer different habitats, lions prefer open lands, while tigers secluded in jungles, but theres one thing that both lion and tiger need every week, which is water...and the major rivers of india stretch for hundreds to thousands of miles, this would be the hot spots in which both would be lured together and meet in confrontations. If you look at the ashoka pillars they just so happen to be next to major rivers. What is also interesting is, if you look back at the accounts of lions and tigers fighting in india, they are at the exact locations of the ashoka eddicts, via:
In surat, where a lion killed a tiger there are ashoka eddicts in the same district of sopara
In bangalore a lion wounded a tiger twice in the neck, look there are many eddicts there
In Jamnagar and rajkot lions have killed tigers, and there is a edict in Girnar
the same placeIn argatala a lion killed a tiger there, and theres also lion bones in bankura, and look there are eddicts there as well
In the himalayas a lion killed a tiger and John c merriam said asiatic lions killed tigers more north, there are edicts in mansera
In Bhubaneswar two lionesses killed a white tigress, there are also edicts there in dhauli
A lion killed a tiger near the ganges river, look at the gangetic plane, there are many eddicts there.
So most likely the ashoka monuments and edicts, werent just to idealize the man ashoka, but were land marks of where the lion inhabited in terms of his former range in the BC times.
So most likely, that the 4 lions facing all directions were meant to represent that the lions once ruled the four corners of india.north, south, east and west:
The pillars of Ashoka are a series of columns dispersed throughout the Indian subcontinent, erected or at least inscribed with edicts by the Mauryan king Ashoka during his reign in the 3rd century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka
It is believed that lion entered India from Persia about 6000 years ago, and then spread in northern India
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22It+is+believed+that+lion+entered+India+from+Persia+about+6000+years+ago%2C+and+then%22
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiatic_lion
And the bengal tiger:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_tiger
As showed, tigers have a natural corridor in ramthanbore, which is quite close to the state of gujarat, where lions are, so in a hypothetical situation, what would happen in a conflict between two of the most powerful of predators in india.
Some additional info:
! Now for the Lion of Kattywar or central Gezerat. In the B. S. M. for July, 1840, is a record of one there slain, of which we read : -——“ This Lion was 9 feet, with flowing mane, and altogether much more bulky than any Tiger I have killed
lion more bulky tiger&f=false
Head of the smithsonian Biologist John seidensticker:
it has been suggested that the tiger may have a proportionally smaller head than the lion.
https://books.google.com/books?id=X...a=X&ei=qQCWVL3fDcbxoATVx4GwBg&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
Captive conflict accounts in india:
The Pioneer Mail and Indian Weekly News
LIONESS KILLS TIGRESS. - NAGPUR, 26TH October. In the Maharaj Bagh, while transferring wild animals from one cage to another, a lioness attacked a tigress and killed her. The animal was subsequently captured and placed in its cage.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22In+the+Maharaj+Bagh%2C+while+transferring+wild+animals+from+one+cage+to+another%2C+a+lioness+attacked%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&oq=%22In+the+Maharaj+Bagh%2C+while+transferring+wild+animals+from+one+cage+to+another%2C+a+lioness+attacked%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...3856.9093.0.9922.2.1.0.1.0.0.258.258.2-1.1.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.xZLJjaEMlf4
Zoo tiger surrcumbs presented to the Corpo ration zoo by Jamnagar State In 1949 died on Monday of Injuries sustained in a deadly combat with Leo
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_QNFAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Z7cMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3206,4386439&dq=zoo+tiger+succumbs+fight+with+lion&hl=en
"One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date
&s_trackval=GooglePM Double edged sword: Both the tiger and the lion population would be affectedThe NGO claims that the prey base of Kuno is limited, and is not sufficient even for the lions that are to be shifted. So, there would be intense competition between the lions and tigers, straying from Ranthambore, for the same prey. However, it is not just the relocated lions that would be at a disadvantage, as the tigers in Ranthambore could be equally impacted. As competition for prey increases, the lions may venture out of Kuno in search of food and enter Ranthambore through the shared corridor. This would then reduce the prey base of the tigers. Not only that, lions may even attack and kill tigers.http://www.indiawest.com/blogs/tiger-lio
Kailash Sankhala Indian naturalist
Indian Expert Damoo Dhotre:
http://www.circusesandsideshows.com/performers/damudhotre.html
THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre.
http://www.google.com/search?q=THE+FAMOUS+Dhotre%2C+an+Indian+animal+trainer+lion+tiger++site%3Anews.google.com%2Fnewspapers&ie=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri
"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger.
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search
Jam sahib of nawanagar:
http://www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMagazine/2007/July/3-8.pdf
Ten species olfelida are found S. of the Himalaya, including the lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, and the true cats (F.catvt).
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA203&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&output=text
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himalayas
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=888&dat=19520508&id=fwNZAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Jk8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3615,3750010&hl=en
And a different one:
Besides this weird notion, there is also the terrific enthusiasm for
sound. During one of the stretches, the Halliburton voice tells of
looking down into a pit and perceiving an Indian lion, supposed to be
one of the very few in existence, giving battle to a tiger. It is a
thrilling fight, but Mr. Futter has overdone the inoculation of sound.
On other occasions the scenes are silent and later one hears the
breaking of a tree as it is pushed over by an elephant.
http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9D03E5DD1538E333A2575BC0A9639C946294D6CF
WILD
An account which took place at india in Surat:
The fauna there includes a few tigers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=635DAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&dq=surat+india+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jFyXVOSwDInUoAS60IGYAw&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA
Tapi river is the home to the natural habitats of many wild animals snakes and many more.
http://www.ecoindia.com/rivers/tapi.html
One of the biggest tigers recorded came from surat:
https://books.google.com/books?id=I7QrAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA299&dq=surat+india+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xl-XVID_FoKvoQSgkoHABQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzgK
JUNGLES OF INDIA THRILLING SCENE
Our destination was the province called Guzerat, which is a large peninsula northwest of Bombay. We could have proceeded thither in a short time by sea, but Mr. Barrill took the circuitous land route, in order to see the country. At the end of the first day's journey we en camped at the base of a range of mountains " the height of which I supposed was fifteen hundred feet. These mountains extend entirely through western India. In the vicinity of our encampment, they were steep and stony. On aU sides were forests of bamboo, presenting a straighter and more regular aspet, than any woodland I had ever HINDOO HABITS….
At Domus, Mr. Barrill disposed of his tusks to a Parsee merchant, for about one-half the price he could have obtained if he had conveyed them to Surat. But he was glad to ged rid of the burden. Domus -n-as a small town. The inhabitants were courteous enough, but we understood that some of them were strongly suspected of being engaged in piracy. Our servants informed us that the Parsees were very numerous in the country northward, and their enterprise was the chief source of its prosperity. At noon the second day after our arrival at Domus, we came within sight of the celebrated city of Surat. Its towers and pagodas gave it an imposing appearance… but as we approached the walls age and decay were strikingly evident. This city is situated on the Taptee, about tvrenty miles from the point where the mouth, or bay, empties into the gulf of Cambay. It is about six miles in circumference, and shaped like a bow, the cord being the Taptee, having near its centre, a small castle garrisoned by a few sepoys and Europeans. On ofner sides, the town is surrounded by a wall, flanked with semicircular towers. Without the walls we found some good European houses, formerly occupied by the French, but now, the residence of English officers; but the houses within the town were very inferior, consisting only of timber frames filled up with bricks, their upper stories projecting over each other. The streets were narrow and irregular. Only small boats, called ketches, can ascend the river to Surat " yet the city once had a very extensive* commerce.
We remained three days in Surat. During this period, Mr. Barrill made some valuable acquaintance among the English, and purchased some small articles which he deemed necessary for our comfort. We found that nearly all the business of the city was carried on by the Parsees " the Hindoos being generally as indolent as they were superstitious…
The jungle was beautiful and luxuriant " the dark green foliage of the bamboo contrasting finely with the lighter verdure of the palm and the blossoms of numerous other trees for which I had no name. The encounter of the day before had left an impression not easily effaced, and we took care to avoid, as far as we could, consistently with our designs upon the game, the thickest jungle, where it was difficult to see beyond a few yards on each side. The Hindoos were all eye as they marched, and I thought, that each moment, one of them shuddered as if he expected the terrible tiger to spring from the bushes and dash him to the ground. We had proceeded about six or seven niiles, without meeting with any animals, deemed worthy of our rifles, and were growing more confident in our march. ^Lr. Barrill and I had fallen into conversation about the contrast between the forests of India and South Africa, when a tremendous roar, and the shrieks of the Hindoos, rang fearfully in our ears, and brought our shuddering horses to a halt. The case flashed on our eyes we turned. The Parsees stood as if paralyzed " the Hindoos shrieked and danced, and seemed senseless with fright. Hurrying away through the jungle we could occasionally catch a glimpse of the striped hack of a tiger ' and a faint shriek told us what he had dared to seize foi his meal. Humanity and our own burning thirst for distinction in this region, new to us, banished all feelings uf dread, and we started away, with ready rifles in pursuit, the rest of the party following, not knowing what else to do for safety. The tiger had disappeared beneath the thick foliage of the bushes, and the cessation of the victim's shrieks left us no clue to the ferocious animal's whereabouts.
When suddenly, within about fifty yards, sounded the tremendous voice of a lion " a sound we could never forget; and a succession of awful growls, snaps, and loud rustics among the bushes, led us to believe that the two tyrants of the forests were contending for the mastery. Anxious to gain a view of such a fearful struggle, we pressed forward^ till emerging from a clump of bushes, we beheld almost at our horse's feet, the lion and tiger rolling over and over, in a conflict which only death could interrupt. The mangled Hindoo was lying senseless upon his face, within a few yards of the ferocious combatants. We did not fire, but reserved our bullets till the conflict should destroy one of the beasts.
It was a horrible struggle. The tiger was quite as large as the lion, and much quicker in his movements. But the lion showed a decided superiority of strength, and his great mane effectually covered his head. Still his hack and sides were torn hy the tiger's claws, and for some minutes the contest was doubtful. Both possessed equal courage and determination, and no disposition was evinced to have a drawn battle. It was one of the compensations of nature. The tyrants of the woods, who had so long preyed upon the weaker animals, were now paying each other in due form. Draw near, ye ghosts of mangled cattle, stags and lesser beasts, to gloat over your revenge! Our prescence seemed a matter of indifference to the combatants, so intent were they in that struggle of strength and activity. But the endurance of the lion prevailed " seizing the tiger by the throat, he turned it on its back, and with his strong claws tore open its belly, and, thus put an end to its ferocious life. Hail, king of beasts, for so thou art I This had scarcely been achieved when simultaneotis balls from our rifles, stretched the lion beside the foe whom he had vanquished, and their blood mingled among the grass….
We immediately dismounted, hastened to the wounded Hindoo, while his companions busied themselves in striking their spears into the helpless tiger " and patting the head of the lion. Raising the poor fellow, we found that he was so dreadfully bitten and torn about the throat and breast, that his chance of living was but small. He could not speak. After a short time spent in reeking their cowardly vengeance on the tiger, his Hindoo companions said that they had quite enough of hunting tigers on foot, and that they would take the wounded man back to Elaw as quickly as possible. Mr. Barrill agreed with them that it was the best course they could pursue, and gave them the skin of the tiger to take with them as a kind compensation for their fright. They constructed a rude litter of branches, on which they laid their wounded companion " then skinned the tigers-cutting ofi" his head " while our Parsees were skinning the lion, and then bade us adieu. The lion was not as large as those we had killed in Africa " His skin was of a yellowish hue, the mane being some shades deeper. In other respects, there seemed to be no difference between the lions of Asia and Africa.
The tiger was a beautiful animal, the skin being striped as splendidly as that of the African zebra. The form resembled that of the common cat. The eyes were of a greenish grey color, having a ferocious glare " and the appearance of the teeth and claws was enough to send a thrill of terror through a person of timid nerves. The roar of this monster, which was the first intelligence of his presence we had received, resembled that of the lion, but was not so deep and grand. When enraged as it was during the conflict with the lion, it makes a shrill cry which pierces the ear in a most disagreeable way.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/209
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Perils_and_Pleasures_of_a_Hunters_Life_1000110811/211
It states non-fiction:
http://www.readanybook.com/author/peregrine-herne-10860
It states it’s a autobiography:
http://www.gregorrarebooks.com/cgi-bin/gregor/19933.html?id=DHdpg6en
Here is Herne being noted as one of the first hunters of his era:
http://www.shakariconnection.com/early-african-hunter-books.html
Another artifact in that same area of gujarat shows a lion defeating a tiger (bottom left)
Top left: Elephant and rhino fight
Top middle: Lion looking out on a rockery
Top right: Jungle scene
Bottom left: Lion biting the neck of a tiger
Bottom middle: Lion chasing a blue bull
Bottom right: Running sambar
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/LotDetailsPrintable.aspx?intObjectID=4886609
There is also a fight in india:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBdpiIxMnMM
Most think it is a british film, but its actually a american film:
http://www.chicagofilmarchives.org/collections/index.php/Detail/Object/Show/object_id/2728
Castle Films was a home-movie distributor founded in California by former newsreel
cameraman Eugene W. Castle (1897–1960) in 1924. The company originally produced business and advertising films. By 1931 it had moved its principal office to New York City. In 1937, Castle branched out into 8 mmand 16 mm home movies, buying newsreel footage and old theatrical films for home use. Castle's first home movie was a newsreel of theHindenburg explosion.[1] That same year, Castle launched his "News Parade" series, a year-in-review newsreel; travelogues followed in 1938. Castle also released sports films, animal adventures, and "old time" movies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Films
Ganga well lion
Gangaikonda Cholapuram Temple Lion Water well
The ganges yamuna
It is known from historical evidence that the 16th and 17th centuries, Ganga-Yamuna region was covered with dense forests. These forests wild elephant , buffalo , rhino, lion, tiger and bison was the victim of
https://hi.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%82%E0%A4%97%E0%A4%BE_%E0%A4%A8%E0%A4%A6%E0%A5%80
31’st of March, 1851, In the “Landshuter Zeitung” (“Landshut Newspaper”) A drama at the Ganges.
I’ll tell of one of these terrible fights, one you wouldn’t see again in a hundred years, a scene of blood and death that forever will haunt my mind. […] The lion and his rival, the tiger, need air and space in great quantity. Here, and only here, are they really able to live and to rule. […] (A long description of lions and tigers and how fierce both of them are, the actual event follows now) A Malayan slave ran towards us and shouted: “Lion! Lion! Down there, at the river! It’s a big, fierce lion!”
“One more reason to take shelter in the house,” continued the colonel. “Come, my friends, take the weapons! The lion is a troublesome guest.”
We closed the house’s doors; the slaves got weapons and guarded the basement. We, to welcome this guest admirably, climbed up to the gallery from which we could overlook the Ganges. An unusually big lion walked haughtily down there, not looking around as he does when he has to fight an opponent, but instead ambling slowly and thoughtfully like a philosopher, he walked there. He stopped from time to time to rest a minute, and then continued majestically his way. Under a magnificent palm, he stopped, turned around two times, and finally lay down in the shadow. This was the rest of a magnificent ruler that had nothing to fear from any adversary. He rested easily, as do those who have made no enemies.
Scarcely ten minutes had the lion lain there, when suddenly, he jumped up as though struck by lightning, roaring very deeply and scratching the ground with both hind legs, as though challenging an adversary. He lowered his head and, in a single bound, jumped at the palm’s stem to look about, to the right and left. Then he jumped down to ground to wait again, and his gaze lingered at one particular spot on the horizon.
“An enemy seems to approach,” the colonel said, “a terrible enemy, if we look at the lion’s reaction. I predict that it will be a fierce fight, and many rich people would pay a great sum to see it if they were here right now.”
“And why,” I asked, “don’t they stage some fights from time to time, if they would pay so much?”
“Because what we have here is very rare. The lion won’t fight against a human but against a fierce animal, one as strong as he himself, such as a rhinoceros, an elephant, or a tiger.”
“A tiger! It’s really a tiger!” one of us shouted pointing a finger at the dangerous beast which jumped in huge leaps towards the lion. It was breathtaking, our eyes wandered from the lion to the tiger and from the tiger to the lion. The lion still was lurking. It was a terrible spectacle and we wagered who will win. Now they stood eyeball to eyeball with each other. They’d seen each other and wouldn’t leave unless one of them was lying dead at the ground. The tiger was unbelievably huge and beautiful with his long black stripes distributed all over his yellowish body. His fearful eyes seemed to burn, his head was lowered. We stood, at the most, 200 feet away. The sun shone brightly, so we could see their every move. I don’t think I have to mention that our hearts were in our mouths. The tiger closed in on the lion, but the lion remained calm. In the latter, we could see the force of the calmness in his powerful position; in the tiger, one could believe to see the violent tension of someone who has the impudence to disrespect a close danger, one who had the will to assault it. We could see a certain twitch in his legs, but he wasn’t about to flee. Did the crouching tiger want to kill the lion? I believe it did, and I admire the royal tiger’s courage, he would rather lie down in a burning furnace than be accused of cowardice!
The lion had not moved at all, but we could see what was happening inside him by looking at his erected mane. From time to time, his countenance suggested a submissive gesture. But he, the king of animals, didn’t want to show any fear, but rather boldness, to his opponent. A duel was now inevitable. For the tiger it may be a glorious day, but for the lion it was certainly a festive day.
With one leap, they could grab, bite, tear each other; with one leap they’d jump over the space of 20 feet that separated them from each other. Then, they leaped! The crash equaled the crash of two ships in a tempest! We could hear the bones breaking under the weight of their terrible paws, we could see chunks of flesh falling to the ground. They made no sound, but their gruff moaning indicated their rage and pain. Neither showed superiority and we wondered who would win. If the lion were to think that he had overpowered the tiger, the latter could earn the victory with a single move, shattering the surprised lion.
The fight now lasted 10 minutes, and suddenly, as if they came to an agreement, both loosened their grip to gain their breath again. It was the motionlessness of the rage, but it was the calmness of the king. A few moments later, an unexpected incident which resurrected the fight took place: The tiger, which saw not only his defeat but also his death, used the moment. While his opponent was licking his wounded hind leg, he leaped 10 feet up the palm’s stem and stayed there. The lion looked around and couldn’t see his foe anymore; he roared, looked upwards, and he jumped at the tiger. But in this position it was impossible to continue the fight. They knew that only one of them would survive. The tiger jumped down and the lion followed him, but his leg caused him to shiver. A long fight wasn’t possible any more. Their claws were blunted, their jaws were tired, and they had lost much blood.
The fighters’ jaws were wedged in each other as they bit at each others’ heads; we could feel the bones crushing. Suddenly the tiger retreated, wavered and fell down. The lion seized him with his terrible paws and it seemed like he wanted to punish the defeated opponent for his resistance.
He didn’t loosen his grip, the merciless king of the forest, the feared lord of the wilderness; he tore the tiger apart, he crushed its skull. Suddenly a crocodile appeared out of the river. It seized the lion at his injured hind leg and dragged him into the water. The only remains of this fight were the dead tiger under the palm and some read streams of blood on the water surface.
eA tiger and lion fight near bangalore, the tiger is bitten terribly in
the throat before both injured go seperate ways:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1302&dat=18891221&id=8pJRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7172,7165143&hl=en
What I find quite interesting is, every place a lion has fought and killed a tiger, it is on the map of ashoka:
Much people think that the lion was a rare animal in india, atleast overall wise, even some indian scholars and experts say that lions and tigers would not meet because they both prefer different habitats, lions prefer open lands, while tigers secluded in jungles, but theres one thing that both lion and tiger need every week, which is water...and the major rivers of india stretch for hundreds to thousands of miles, this would be the hot spots in which both would be lured together and meet in confrontations. If you look at the ashoka pillars they just so happen to be next to major rivers. What is also interesting is, if you look back at the accounts of lions and tigers fighting in india, they are at the exact locations of the ashoka eddicts, via:
In surat, where a lion killed a tiger there are ashoka eddicts in the same district of sopara
In bangalore a lion wounded a tiger twice in the neck, look there are many eddicts there
In Jamnagar and rajkot lions have killed tigers, and there is a edict in Girnar
the same placeIn argatala a lion killed a tiger there, and theres also lion bones in bankura, and look there are eddicts there as well
In the himalayas a lion killed a tiger and John c merriam said asiatic lions killed tigers more north, there are edicts in mansera
In Bhubaneswar two lionesses killed a white tigress, there are also edicts there in dhauli
A lion killed a tiger near the ganges river, look at the gangetic plane, there are many eddicts there.
So most likely the ashoka monuments and edicts, werent just to idealize the man ashoka, but were land marks of where the lion inhabited in terms of his former range in the BC times.
So most likely, that the 4 lions facing all directions were meant to represent that the lions once ruled the four corners of india.north, south, east and west:
The pillars of Ashoka are a series of columns dispersed throughout the Indian subcontinent, erected or at least inscribed with edicts by the Mauryan king Ashoka during his reign in the 3rd century BC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Ashoka
It is believed that lion entered India from Persia about 6000 years ago, and then spread in northern India
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22It+is+believed+that+lion+entered+India+from+Persia+about+6000+years+ago%2C+and+then%22
(edited 8 years ago)
Scroll to see replies
I think they can get along, hence ligers and tigons.
On the most part, even among some experts on the indian lion, some say that the tiger is the main reason for the asiatic lion for going extinct, this is highly doughtful, since lions live in large groups, a tiger will be contending on most cases with a coalition of lions or a pride, as lions are gregarious animals, if that were true, then there should be many accounts of tigers killing multiple lions at once even in captivity, but the records dont show that:
Check this new one out
t:
There are albino lions. A lion lives in Africa and a tiger lives in Asia. One day an owner of farmer bought two tigers. Unfortunately lions found some hole to the next tiger cage from the fence in the night, and four or five lions killed two tigers. Oh.. poor tigers and owner. I guess he paid a lot of money to buy tigers.
http://www.universewithme.com/blog/2013/03/05/time-wild-animals-africa/
Similar to an older one:
Lions attacked tigers in Kludsky's act, killing several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world
Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of lions and tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/ http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world
Two lions kill a bengal and rip off his legs
:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100760504?searchTerm=%22lion%20kills%20tiger%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc
(Frankfurt zoo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden
s.
two lions kill tiger named poona:
https://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=two+lions+kill+tiger++clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5gIDHi5fLAhVN-GMKHRgKAYwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=two%20lions%20kill%20tiger%20%
20clyde%20beatty&f=f
alse
H
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk
two other young lions kill and eat young tiger:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19730829&id=lOZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OuEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1272,7019407&hl=en
During their first performance this spring and during the act two lions attacked and killed a tiger Mr. Beatty stayed in the cage during the entire fight to keep the other animals from getting into it - - - Mr. Beatty says no matter how well you think you know a tiger or lion, you still cannot trust'them The quiet ones are often the most dangerous
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/37645569
Liberec (Czech pronunciation: German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Kozákov Ridge: lions kill white tigress in leberic czech zoo.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm
Herald-Post from El Paso, Texas · Page 3 Friday, July 14, 1972
Montana avenue. Tiger Pelt To Go To High Bidder Zoo director Ray Arras said today that plans are being formulated to.call for bids of the pelt of Rajah, the Zoo's Bengal Tiger that was killed in a fight with two lions late yesterday. Arras said the City Clerk's office has unofficially received inquiries from 'ex-students of El Paso High School about the availability of the pelt. The school's mascot symbol is a tiger. A board of inquiry will also be set up by Zoo and Park officials to probe the tiger-lion fight yesterday at feeding time when a door was opened between the two pits holding the animals. The male and female lion attacked the tiger and the Bengal's neck was broken.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/12169650/
Battle royals:
The worst fight which ever took place in my arena was between seventeen lions and twelve tigers, and resulted in the death of three of the tigers and the serious injury of several of the lions. On another occasion eight lions battled two tigers, and one of the tigers was killed. During the circus season last year, various fights ...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22death+of+three+of+the+tigers%22&oq=%22death+of+three+of+the+tigers%22&gs_l=serp.3...33581.43318.0.43510.4.4.0.0.0.0.154.558.0j4.4.0....0...1c.1j2.64.serp..0.0.0.dGxhoB93WZ8
Some interesting facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5otS5rqyY
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35256
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35515
On the most part, even among some experts on the indian lion, some say that the tiger is the main reason for the asiatic lion for going extinct, this is highly doughtful, since lions live in large groups, a tiger will be contending on most cases with a coalition of lions or a pride, as lions are gregarious animals, if that were true, then there should be many accounts of tigers killing multiple lions at once even in captivity, but the records dont show that:
Check this new one out
t:
There are albino lions. A lion lives in Africa and a tiger lives in Asia. One day an owner of farmer bought two tigers. Unfortunately lions found some hole to the next tiger cage from the fence in the night, and four or five lions killed two tigers. Oh.. poor tigers and owner. I guess he paid a lot of money to buy tigers.
http://www.universewithme.com/blog/2013/03/05/time-wild-animals-africa/
Similar to an older one:
Lions attacked tigers in Kludsky's act, killing several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-worldRudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of lions and tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/ http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world
Two lions kill a bengal and rip off his legs
:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100760504?searchTerm=%22lion%20kills%20tiger%22&searchLimits=sortby=dateDesc
(Frankfurt zoo)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden
s.
two lions kill tiger named poona:
https://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=two+lions+kill+tiger++clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi5gIDHi5fLAhVN-GMKHRgKAYwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=two%20lions%20kill%20tiger%20%
20clyde%20beatty&f=f
alse
H
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk
two other young lions kill and eat young tiger:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19730829&id=lOZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OuEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1272,7019407&hl=en
During their first performance this spring and during the act two lions attacked and killed a tiger Mr. Beatty stayed in the cage during the entire fight to keep the other animals from getting into it - - - Mr. Beatty says no matter how well you think you know a tiger or lion, you still cannot trust'them The quiet ones are often the most dangerous
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/37645569
Liberec (Czech pronunciation: German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Kozákov Ridge: lions kill white tigress in leberic czech zoo.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm
Herald-Post from El Paso, Texas · Page 3 Friday, July 14, 1972
Montana avenue. Tiger Pelt To Go To High Bidder Zoo director Ray Arras said today that plans are being formulated to.call for bids of the pelt of Rajah, the Zoo's Bengal Tiger that was killed in a fight with two lions late yesterday. Arras said the City Clerk's office has unofficially received inquiries from 'ex-students of El Paso High School about the availability of the pelt. The school's mascot symbol is a tiger. A board of inquiry will also be set up by Zoo and Park officials to probe the tiger-lion fight yesterday at feeding time when a door was opened between the two pits holding the animals. The male and female lion attacked the tiger and the Bengal's neck was broken.
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/12169650/
Battle royals:
The worst fight which ever took place in my arena was between seventeen lions and twelve tigers, and resulted in the death of three of the tigers and the serious injury of several of the lions. On another occasion eight lions battled two tigers, and one of the tigers was killed. During the circus season last year, various fights ...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22death+of+three+of+the+tigers%22&oq=%22death+of+three+of+the+tigers%22&gs_l=serp.3...33581.43318.0.43510.4.4.0.0.0.0.154.558.0j4.4.0....0...1c.1j2.64.serp..0.0.0.dGxhoB93WZ8
Some interesting facts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5otS5rqyY
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35256
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35515
(edited 8 years ago)
I think universally would mean a 100/100, these are just animals, not some dietys who cant be killed. The main stream media like has little credibility in terms of facts, lets look at how brittle these arguments are:
The source put on wikipedia for the romans was this one:
https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=MbdXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=roman+emperor+was+determined+to+try+whether+the+bengal+tiger+could+fight+the+african+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HY_fUu_5LOW4iQebjYDoBQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=roman%20emperor%20was%20determined%20to%20try%20whether%20the%20bengal%20tiger%20could%20fight%20the%20african%20lion&f=false
That self proclaimed scientist, was noted to be a exaggerator, he states in that same book that it takes 9 men to hold a tiger, and 5 for a lion, but the article who covered the story that day, showed it only took 4 men:
A net devised by professor haughton was thrown over the tiger and he was drawn forward towards the door of the cage. Four stout keepers then held the feet of the struggling animal
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ME18970211.2.34
Hence he changes his storys constantly through out his book, he on another page says the lion has much bigger front shoulder muscles, but then right after says the tiger is stronger in that area (that makes no sense), he even changed the wordings of what the epigram...or poem of martial, which said:
"Lambere securi dextram consueta magistri
Tigris ab Hyrcano gloria rara jugo
Steva ferum rabida laceravit dente leonem:
Res nova, non ullis cognita temporibus.
Ausa est tale nihil, svlvis dum vixit in altis,
Postquam inter nos est, plus feritatis habet."
Translated by Anon…
The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty
http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt
Martial said only one account, not everytime, a hundred books quote that only one source. There is no latin nor italian literature that speaks of titus pitting bengals against babylonians lions against the other as haughton said, who isnt a historian but only a medic at a zoo. The most common animal was noted to be the barbary:
Martin Seyer's
"Another subspecies very closely related to the Asian lion - the Barbary lion or Panthera leo leo - became extinct in the wild in 1922 (in Morocco). This animal the Barbary lion had been the dominant animal in the blood sports of the Roman arenas."
~Historian and Archaeologist (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
http://www.contexttravel.com/city/vienna/tour-guides
http://www.pothos.org/content/index.php?page=lions
This again spread on hear say:
Rose eveleth
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...275452/?no-ist
eveleth isnt a animal keeper, trainer, biologist or anything affiliated with the science on the smithsonian, she states that in the roman artifacts it shows the tiger winning, this is the whole source:
Translated, a important mosaic shows a lion attacking a tiger:
rappresenta una tigre assalita da un leone, testimonianza di arte musiva
.
http://dipstorcristofor.altervista.o...3/12/Domus.pdf
s:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....0.yEYMBy-2WiA
http://www.romanoimpero.com/2010/01/pompei.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=vt...0tiger&f=false
https://issuu.com/yournetsolution/docs/francesca_antonacci_damiano_lapicci_7614e560f23d67
a duplicate was found, that duplicate was sent to the museum in naples:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eLMgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA295&dq=house+of+the+faun+%22lion+standing+over+a+prostrate+tiger.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4sbnK6YTLAhUI3mMKHepaDJwQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=house%20of%20the%20faun%20%22lion%20standing%20over%20a%20prostrate%20tiger.%22&f=false
It states in this book, that the mosaico of the lion attacking the tiger, was sent to the naples museum:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=caecilius+secundus&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwm4mP6oTLAhUM4mMKHUAJCcwQBQgbKAA#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22musaico+di+un+leone+che+aitale+una+tigre+(a+Napoli).%22
Only fragments were found of the mosaic in the room next to the exedra (plate 79:15), a scene with a lion bringing down a tiger
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22a+scene+with+a+lion+bringing+down+a+tiger%22&oq=%22a+scene+with+a+lion+bringing+down+a+tiger%22&gs_l=serp.3...5176.6415.0.6579.2.2.0.0.0.0.131.256.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.0.0.93AGHMNmMEc
Hence this artifact is a replica restored of the house of faun:
"This Exhibition was organized by the Napoleonic authorities in the Capitol in Rome."
http://www.galerieheim.ch/oeuvre-details3.php?id_oeuvre=116&lng=2
Many artifacts in the roman nation show that the lion is the usual winner:
Copper engraving by the well listed Italian artist Pietro Aquila (1650-1692 Rome). Pietro Aquila was an Italian painter and printmaker of the Baroque period. He was born in Palermo. He mentored his nephew, the printmaker Francesco Faraone Aquila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Aquila
(Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart)
Died in Rome L’Aqulia Born in the Holy Roman Empire. of the German Nation, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart travelled to Italy very early on. His trace can be found in Rome and Venice between 1652 and 1659. After finishing his apprenticeship, he came to work in Antwerp in order to perfect his knowledge.
http://www.dejonckheere-gallery.com/...tml?m=1&id=152
A TIGER roaming for his prey,
Sprang on a traveller in the way;
A lion came to claim the prize
And soon the greedy tiger dies.
The man then knelt, his life to crave;
His life the lion hero gave,
And him bespoke,—" You saw the fight
And must confess my power and might,
Within these woods I reign alone,
All other beasts my sway must own."
"True," said the man, "the strength 1 saw, All kinds of beasts full well might awe,
~Aesop (pronounced /?i¢?s?p/ EE-sop, Ancient Greek
"I have seen no fiercer beast than yon lion, even in the amphitheatre of Rome,"
http://books.google.com/books?id=DOw...ed=0CCMQ6AEwBA
A Tiger, roaming for his prey,
Sprung on a Traveller in the way;
The prostrate game a lion spies,
And on the greedy tyrant flies:
With mingled roar resounds the wood,
Their teeth, their claws, distil with blood;
Till, vanquished by the Lion's strength,
The striped foe extends his length.
The Man besought the shaggy lord,
And on his knees for life implor'd:
His life the generous hero gave.
Together walking to his cave,
The Lion thus bespoke his guest:
'What hardy beast shall dare contest My matchless strength? you saw the fight, And must attest my pow'r and right. Fore'd to forego their native home, My starving slaves at distance roam.
Its best to get things from the direct source or people who have credibility to answer such questions in their respective domains:
Historian Ken spiro
HORROR SHOW
“Next, the arena was lowered to feature combat between them as lions tore apart tigers, an went up against bears, croc’s leopards against wolves. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights.”
~M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University
http://www.ais
Even till today, in italy it still happens:
LION BEATS TIGER IN ONE-ROUND CIRCUS FIGHT
Again, evelth doesnt give any personal knowledge or experiences, she just quotes wikipedia, the smithosnian already answered this question, and the answer came from the head keeper there:
William H blackbrune
Mr blackburne is firm his his belief that the lion is the true King of beasts and can whip anything that walks In contrasts but none more amazing than the golf yawning between the majesty has ferocious than is the one that lies quietly in a tiger, but it was all part of the days To this generation the name of Jumbo has become something Icgcn- dery Much of Blackburnc's time as a trainer of wild animals has been de- voted to the he Hvers, he likes the lion "Lions are more easily trained and straightforward than he asserts "A lion Is either good or bad.
The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.
The lion. In my opinion, can whip anything that walks. "Moukeys are the smartest of all animala; pouch animals are stupidest I taught a kangaroo the use of .boxing gloves, but I never could break him of trying to kick me In the stomach er neck with his hind foot. Monkeys of the pouch variety ire Just aa active and mlschlev-Icus. however, as are the other members of theirtribe. ' Tha Monkey That Showed Off
~ The Cincinnati Enquirer from Cincinnati, Ohio · Page 551915
http://newspaperarchive.com/us/new-y.../09-15/page-84
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/34255053/
https://books.google.com/books?id=FB...circus&f=false
Eveything on wikipedia is pretty much written ina bias view, look at the edit section, the same person has edited over 100 times, who leaves out the details:
It was not clear why the death of one of the three lions in the zoo was publicized so late
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/09/tiger-kills-lion-turkey-zoo_n_832465.html
:Ankara zoo:
http://www.inankara.com.tr/galeri-37-f-638/ankara-genel/ankara-hayvanat-bahcesi.php#a
Wiki just says lion, to give off the rep that it was a full grown male, neither did the lion in 1909 get killed by the tiger as the original doesnt say anything of a such:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A06EEDD123EE733A2575AC1A9619C946897D6CF
In fact that lion attacked that tiger again a year later
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/33364769/
The tiger that killed 31 lions has no originals in fact wiki used it twice, the incident in 1857 which charles darwin quotes is the same tiger, who was brought from the King of oude By charles jamrach:
Charles Jamrach moved to London and took over that branch of the business after his father's death in circa 1840 A fine, full-grown Bengal tiger was deposited, in his rough wooden cage, on this very spot at the gates, having just been delivered from a ship in the docks. The lair at the back was being prepared for his reception, when, the attention of Mr. Jamrach and his merry men being otherwise engaged, Tigris regalis set his hindquarters against the back of his temporary receptacle, and, using all his strength, managed to burst out the boards12. Then he quietly trotted out, and down the main street. The sudden appearance of a full- sized tiger at midday on the pavement of Ratcliff- There are many things bought at the sale of the effects of the late king of Oude, an enthusiastic old gentleman whose allowance from the British Government was a lac of rupees a month, and who managed to spend it all, and more than all, on curiosities and works of art, so that his funeral was followed by a sale on behalf of his creditors11
http://www.georgewombwell.com/articles/JamrachsStrandArticle.pdf
This tiger named by the King was called Jungla
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3397555/3397558/10/
He was famous for one of the only tigers to beat a buffalo in fair combat, Jamrach bought this tiger and then named him Nana sahib, the story of him killing a lion went far and wide, if not the most talked of account through over 200 newspapers and books, being one of the only events of a tiger winning in that era, you had haughton who quoted it and over exaggerated it, then another came along doing the same thing, and said this tiger killed 30 lions before killing jamrachs lion...there s no such originals in 1857 of 30 lions, only decades to half a century later the story was made up and exaggerated on.
If tigers were such great fighters, then it should be relatively easy to find hundreds of accounts of tigers killing lions, yet you have 6 or so accounts that was twisted.
The source put on wikipedia for the romans was this one:
https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=MbdXAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA626&dq=roman+emperor+was+determined+to+try+whether+the+bengal+tiger+could+fight+the+african+lion&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HY_fUu_5LOW4iQebjYDoBQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=roman%20emperor%20was%20determined%20to%20try%20whether%20the%20bengal%20tiger%20could%20fight%20the%20african%20lion&f=false
That self proclaimed scientist, was noted to be a exaggerator, he states in that same book that it takes 9 men to hold a tiger, and 5 for a lion, but the article who covered the story that day, showed it only took 4 men:
A net devised by professor haughton was thrown over the tiger and he was drawn forward towards the door of the cage. Four stout keepers then held the feet of the struggling animal
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ME18970211.2.34
Hence he changes his storys constantly through out his book, he on another page says the lion has much bigger front shoulder muscles, but then right after says the tiger is stronger in that area (that makes no sense), he even changed the wordings of what the epigram...or poem of martial, which said:
"Lambere securi dextram consueta magistri
Tigris ab Hyrcano gloria rara jugo
Steva ferum rabida laceravit dente leonem:
Res nova, non ullis cognita temporibus.
Ausa est tale nihil, svlvis dum vixit in altis,
Postquam inter nos est, plus feritatis habet."
Translated by Anon…
The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty
http://archive.org/stream/epigramsmartial01martgoog/epigramsmartial01martgoog_djvu.txt
Martial said only one account, not everytime, a hundred books quote that only one source. There is no latin nor italian literature that speaks of titus pitting bengals against babylonians lions against the other as haughton said, who isnt a historian but only a medic at a zoo. The most common animal was noted to be the barbary:
Martin Seyer's
"Another subspecies very closely related to the Asian lion - the Barbary lion or Panthera leo leo - became extinct in the wild in 1922 (in Morocco). This animal the Barbary lion had been the dominant animal in the blood sports of the Roman arenas."
~Historian and Archaeologist (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
http://www.contexttravel.com/city/vienna/tour-guides
http://www.pothos.org/content/index.php?page=lions
This again spread on hear say:
Rose eveleth
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-...275452/?no-ist
eveleth isnt a animal keeper, trainer, biologist or anything affiliated with the science on the smithsonian, she states that in the roman artifacts it shows the tiger winning, this is the whole source:
Translated, a important mosaic shows a lion attacking a tiger:
rappresenta una tigre assalita da un leone, testimonianza di arte musiva
.
http://dipstorcristofor.altervista.o...3/12/Domus.pdf
s:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&....0.yEYMBy-2WiA
http://www.romanoimpero.com/2010/01/pompei.html
https://books.google.com/books?id=vt...0tiger&f=false
https://issuu.com/yournetsolution/docs/francesca_antonacci_damiano_lapicci_7614e560f23d67
a duplicate was found, that duplicate was sent to the museum in naples:
https://books.google.com/books?id=eLMgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA295&dq=house+of+the+faun+%22lion+standing+over+a+prostrate+tiger.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj4sbnK6YTLAhUI3mMKHepaDJwQ6AEIJDAB#v=onepage&q=house%20of%20the%20faun%20%22lion%20standing%20over%20a%20prostrate%20tiger.%22&f=false
It states in this book, that the mosaico of the lion attacking the tiger, was sent to the naples museum:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=caecilius+secundus&spell=1&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiwm4mP6oTLAhUM4mMKHUAJCcwQBQgbKAA#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22musaico+di+un+leone+che+aitale+una+tigre+(a+Napoli).%22
Only fragments were found of the mosaic in the room next to the exedra (plate 79:15), a scene with a lion bringing down a tiger
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22a+scene+with+a+lion+bringing+down+a+tiger%22&oq=%22a+scene+with+a+lion+bringing+down+a+tiger%22&gs_l=serp.3...5176.6415.0.6579.2.2.0.0.0.0.131.256.0j2.2.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..0.0.0.93AGHMNmMEc
Hence this artifact is a replica restored of the house of faun:
"This Exhibition was organized by the Napoleonic authorities in the Capitol in Rome."
http://www.galerieheim.ch/oeuvre-details3.php?id_oeuvre=116&lng=2
Many artifacts in the roman nation show that the lion is the usual winner:
Copper engraving by the well listed Italian artist Pietro Aquila (1650-1692 Rome). Pietro Aquila was an Italian painter and printmaker of the Baroque period. He was born in Palermo. He mentored his nephew, the printmaker Francesco Faraone Aquila.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Aquila
(Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart)
Died in Rome L’Aqulia Born in the Holy Roman Empire. of the German Nation, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart travelled to Italy very early on. His trace can be found in Rome and Venice between 1652 and 1659. After finishing his apprenticeship, he came to work in Antwerp in order to perfect his knowledge.
http://www.dejonckheere-gallery.com/...tml?m=1&id=152
A TIGER roaming for his prey,
Sprang on a traveller in the way;
A lion came to claim the prize
And soon the greedy tiger dies.
The man then knelt, his life to crave;
His life the lion hero gave,
And him bespoke,—" You saw the fight
And must confess my power and might,
Within these woods I reign alone,
All other beasts my sway must own."
"True," said the man, "the strength 1 saw, All kinds of beasts full well might awe,
~Aesop (pronounced /?i¢?s?p/ EE-sop, Ancient Greek
"I have seen no fiercer beast than yon lion, even in the amphitheatre of Rome,"
http://books.google.com/books?id=DOw...ed=0CCMQ6AEwBA
A Tiger, roaming for his prey,
Sprung on a Traveller in the way;
The prostrate game a lion spies,
And on the greedy tyrant flies:
With mingled roar resounds the wood,
Their teeth, their claws, distil with blood;
Till, vanquished by the Lion's strength,
The striped foe extends his length.
The Man besought the shaggy lord,
And on his knees for life implor'd:
His life the generous hero gave.
Together walking to his cave,
The Lion thus bespoke his guest:
'What hardy beast shall dare contest My matchless strength? you saw the fight, And must attest my pow'r and right. Fore'd to forego their native home, My starving slaves at distance roam.
Its best to get things from the direct source or people who have credibility to answer such questions in their respective domains:
Historian Ken spiro
HORROR SHOW
“Next, the arena was lowered to feature combat between them as lions tore apart tigers, an went up against bears, croc’s leopards against wolves. It goes without saying that the Romans had never heard of animal rights.”
~M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University
http://www.ais
Even till today, in italy it still happens:
LION BEATS TIGER IN ONE-ROUND CIRCUS FIGHT
Again, evelth doesnt give any personal knowledge or experiences, she just quotes wikipedia, the smithosnian already answered this question, and the answer came from the head keeper there:
William H blackbrune
Mr blackburne is firm his his belief that the lion is the true King of beasts and can whip anything that walks In contrasts but none more amazing than the golf yawning between the majesty has ferocious than is the one that lies quietly in a tiger, but it was all part of the days To this generation the name of Jumbo has become something Icgcn- dery Much of Blackburnc's time as a trainer of wild animals has been de- voted to the he Hvers, he likes the lion "Lions are more easily trained and straightforward than he asserts "A lion Is either good or bad.
The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.
The lion. In my opinion, can whip anything that walks. "Moukeys are the smartest of all animala; pouch animals are stupidest I taught a kangaroo the use of .boxing gloves, but I never could break him of trying to kick me In the stomach er neck with his hind foot. Monkeys of the pouch variety ire Just aa active and mlschlev-Icus. however, as are the other members of theirtribe. ' Tha Monkey That Showed Off
~ The Cincinnati Enquirer from Cincinnati, Ohio · Page 551915
http://newspaperarchive.com/us/new-y.../09-15/page-84
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/34255053/
https://books.google.com/books?id=FB...circus&f=false
Eveything on wikipedia is pretty much written ina bias view, look at the edit section, the same person has edited over 100 times, who leaves out the details:
It was not clear why the death of one of the three lions in the zoo was publicized so late
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/09/tiger-kills-lion-turkey-zoo_n_832465.html
:Ankara zoo:
http://www.inankara.com.tr/galeri-37-f-638/ankara-genel/ankara-hayvanat-bahcesi.php#a
Wiki just says lion, to give off the rep that it was a full grown male, neither did the lion in 1909 get killed by the tiger as the original doesnt say anything of a such:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A06EEDD123EE733A2575AC1A9619C946897D6CF
In fact that lion attacked that tiger again a year later
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/33364769/
The tiger that killed 31 lions has no originals in fact wiki used it twice, the incident in 1857 which charles darwin quotes is the same tiger, who was brought from the King of oude By charles jamrach:
Charles Jamrach moved to London and took over that branch of the business after his father's death in circa 1840 A fine, full-grown Bengal tiger was deposited, in his rough wooden cage, on this very spot at the gates, having just been delivered from a ship in the docks. The lair at the back was being prepared for his reception, when, the attention of Mr. Jamrach and his merry men being otherwise engaged, Tigris regalis set his hindquarters against the back of his temporary receptacle, and, using all his strength, managed to burst out the boards12. Then he quietly trotted out, and down the main street. The sudden appearance of a full- sized tiger at midday on the pavement of Ratcliff- There are many things bought at the sale of the effects of the late king of Oude, an enthusiastic old gentleman whose allowance from the British Government was a lac of rupees a month, and who managed to spend it all, and more than all, on curiosities and works of art, so that his funeral was followed by a sale on behalf of his creditors11
http://www.georgewombwell.com/articles/JamrachsStrandArticle.pdf
This tiger named by the King was called Jungla
http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3397555/3397558/10/
He was famous for one of the only tigers to beat a buffalo in fair combat, Jamrach bought this tiger and then named him Nana sahib, the story of him killing a lion went far and wide, if not the most talked of account through over 200 newspapers and books, being one of the only events of a tiger winning in that era, you had haughton who quoted it and over exaggerated it, then another came along doing the same thing, and said this tiger killed 30 lions before killing jamrachs lion...there s no such originals in 1857 of 30 lions, only decades to half a century later the story was made up and exaggerated on.
If tigers were such great fighters, then it should be relatively easy to find hundreds of accounts of tigers killing lions, yet you have 6 or so accounts that was twisted.
(edited 8 years ago)
How many tigers can you name that has killed lions? and actually shows the photo of the combatants:
France:
Prince:
Leo:
Nero america:
Nero the lion had killed the feline tiger Pasha, in saving Beatty's life. The fight lasted twenty-five ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Nero+the+lion+had+killed+the+feline+tiger+Pasha%2C+in+saving+Beattys+life.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&tbo=1&tbm=bks&ei=UVtgU4qcIsuHyATgs4GYAQ&sa=N&gws_rd=ssl
Caesar one 1933:
"Clyde Beatty. among other famous trainers, has recorded some of them. He tells of one huge lion, named Caesar, who, from his position at the top of a pyramid formed in the act by the caged cats, twice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly. The audience loved it, but tigers are expensive so Caesar had to be taken out of the show."http://books.google.com/books?id=pzl...=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU
Caesar 2 1957:
Clyde Beatty, world's greatest wild animal trainer, seems to be having trouble with "Caesar," the tiger killing lion. Beatty is insistent but Caesar continues to refuse with lts magnificent display of dental equipment. The Beatty wild animal display is' one of the many thrillers to be seen with the Clyde Beatty Circus, coming to Lebanon on Tuesday
~Lebanon Daily News 12 March 1957 › Page 15
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5402584/
Nero australia:
Tarzan and henry
Two sulking Nubian lions brought a graudge up to date when they waylaid and killed a bcngal tiger in an ear-splitting fight that turned Clyde Beatty's animal cage into a bloody arena at the Shrine circus here tonight. Poona, a 13-year-old tiger, fought-'back valiantly but went down under the savage attack of Tarzan and Henry
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/15443366/
Wallace:
Then Ramsey, the Bengal tiger, crouched and leaped. Wallace reared up to meet him. He caught the tiger full in the throat, held him almost in midair for an instant, dashed him back against the pedestals. There was a crash of falling wood; the tiger sprang up against the bars, circled the cage, roaring and lashing, crouched again again as if to spring. But he did not spring. Nor did Chita. For Wallace, he whose ancestors had been undisputed emperors of jungles and marsh lands, Wallace — the sullen old lion — stood mighty guard over the man who loved him, who had cared for him in sickness and health. His mane was distended into a great flare of defiance They knew him for what he was -- the king. And so they snarled and crouched until prodded back into the traveling cages. Then we tried to prod Wallace away from the still body of the little trainer he had striven to save. But he would not move.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Then+Ramsey%2C+the+Bengal+tiger%2C+crouched+and+leaped.+Wallace+reared+up+to+meet+him.+He+caught+the+tiger+full+in+the+throat%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&oq=%22Then+Ramsey%2C+the+Bengal+tiger%2C+crouched+and+leaped.+Wallace+reared+up+to+meet+him.+He+caught+the+tiger+full+in+the+throat%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...58899.67442.0.67681.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..3.0.0.5sdLz9VQ1ys
Big Leo
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/79678972
Cheongi:
Samson:
Rover:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Then+one+day+the+tiger+confronted+a+lion+and+a+terrible+duel+followed+at+the+end+of+which+the+tiger+lay+dead.+WANTON+KlLLlNG%22
King Edward:
kills Dan the bengal tiger~The American magazine
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl
Regal:
Lesson of the Lion TamersA large male lion named Regal had a dominating presence in the center ring, but that did not stop a puma in the same act from showing his resentment. At the end of every performance, as the big cats returned to their cages, the puma passed Regal’s pedestal and reached up, quickly clipping Regal on the leg. This continued for many weeks. As the lion tamer described: "I knew that real trouble was building, but I couldn’t think of any way to stop it. The animals are trained to leave the arena in a certain order; I couldn’t send Regal out first and so get him out of the puma’s way. I was afraid to interfere directly between the two animals; if I should chase Regal down from his seat, there almost certainly would have been a fight."Ultimately, "Regal decided to end the annoyance." "This time, when I cued the puma to go back to his cage, Regal was ready. Just as the puma was passing but before he had time to reach up and clip the lion, Regal leaned down and swung with such a haymaker as I have neverBefore seen. He caught the puma on the side of the neck, striking with such force that he severed the head from the body as cleanly as though it had been cut off by a headsman’s ax. The puma’s body fell limp at the foot of Regal’s pedestal, and the head flew across the arena, struck the bars on the far side and rebounded, to drop on the ground like a spent ball… "Regal was still on his seat. I cued him to go to his cage, and he got down, stepped across the blood that was flowing from the puma’s body, and returned to his cage. His attitude was that of one who has performed a necessary, though perhaps unpleasant duty. He had removed an annoyance, and there was nomore to be said on the subject. When he returned to the arena for the next performance,he never even glanced at the place where the puma had been.
"http://recruitusmc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Katz-Lion-Taming_-Working-Successfully-with-Leaders-Bosses-and-Other-Tough-Customers-Sourcebooks-Inc.-2004.pdf
Boss tweeds:
Boss Tweed," Clyde said, "was one of the greatest fighters I've ever seen, in addition to his noble looks. He did some of his cleverest fighting in the Rochester Massacre. That was this spring. When Iwo score of lions and tigers were in the arena for a dress rehearsal. One, on a high seat, reached down to take a cuff at the cat below. They frequently do that without much happening. But in this case the caton the- high scat fell off and landed on the one below. The one below, thinking he was attacked, started to fight. In a second it was a free-for-all. In such a fight the lions have two distinct advantages. Their first is their thick mane which prevents the tigers from getting to their throats. Their second is their clannish way of ganging up on a tiger. A tiger will justwatch another tiger being attacked. The lions join each other. An animal attendant excitedly raised a gate into the shoot so the beasts could return to their cages. Into the shoot ran three Bengal tigers with Boss Tweed in pursuit. "For twenty minutes they battled. Boss Tweed killed the three tigers, but himself was almost torn to ribbons. He recovered but somehow he never seemed to be the same. His spirit or his fighting nerve was gone. The other morning I opened his cage door and he was dead, for seven years I trained him, the longest of any of my cats. I was greatly attached to him.
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/195707/
France:
Prince:
Leo:
Nero america:
Nero the lion had killed the feline tiger Pasha, in saving Beatty's life. The fight lasted twenty-five ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Nero+the+lion+had+killed+the+feline+tiger+Pasha%2C+in+saving+Beattys+life.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&tbo=1&tbm=bks&ei=UVtgU4qcIsuHyATgs4GYAQ&sa=N&gws_rd=ssl
Caesar one 1933:
"Clyde Beatty. among other famous trainers, has recorded some of them. He tells of one huge lion, named Caesar, who, from his position at the top of a pyramid formed in the act by the caged cats, twice sprang upon tigers, killing each one almost instantly. The audience loved it, but tigers are expensive so Caesar had to be taken out of the show."http://books.google.com/books?id=pzl...=0CDMQ6AEwAzgU
Caesar 2 1957:
Clyde Beatty, world's greatest wild animal trainer, seems to be having trouble with "Caesar," the tiger killing lion. Beatty is insistent but Caesar continues to refuse with lts magnificent display of dental equipment. The Beatty wild animal display is' one of the many thrillers to be seen with the Clyde Beatty Circus, coming to Lebanon on Tuesday
~Lebanon Daily News 12 March 1957 › Page 15
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5402584/
Nero australia:
Tarzan and henry
Two sulking Nubian lions brought a graudge up to date when they waylaid and killed a bcngal tiger in an ear-splitting fight that turned Clyde Beatty's animal cage into a bloody arena at the Shrine circus here tonight. Poona, a 13-year-old tiger, fought-'back valiantly but went down under the savage attack of Tarzan and Henry
https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/15443366/
Wallace:
Then Ramsey, the Bengal tiger, crouched and leaped. Wallace reared up to meet him. He caught the tiger full in the throat, held him almost in midair for an instant, dashed him back against the pedestals. There was a crash of falling wood; the tiger sprang up against the bars, circled the cage, roaring and lashing, crouched again again as if to spring. But he did not spring. Nor did Chita. For Wallace, he whose ancestors had been undisputed emperors of jungles and marsh lands, Wallace — the sullen old lion — stood mighty guard over the man who loved him, who had cared for him in sickness and health. His mane was distended into a great flare of defiance They knew him for what he was -- the king. And so they snarled and crouched until prodded back into the traveling cages. Then we tried to prod Wallace away from the still body of the little trainer he had striven to save. But he would not move.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Then+Ramsey%2C+the+Bengal+tiger%2C+crouched+and+leaped.+Wallace+reared+up+to+meet+him.+He+caught+the+tiger+full+in+the+throat%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&oq=%22Then+Ramsey%2C+the+Bengal+tiger%2C+crouched+and+leaped.+Wallace+reared+up+to+meet+him.+He+caught+the+tiger+full+in+the+throat%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...58899.67442.0.67681.3.3.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.msedr...0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..3.0.0.5sdLz9VQ1ys
Big Leo
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/79678972
Cheongi:
Samson:
Rover:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Then+one+day+the+tiger+confronted+a+lion+and+a+terrible+duel+followed+at+the+end+of+which+the+tiger+lay+dead.+WANTON+KlLLlNG%22
King Edward:
kills Dan the bengal tiger~The American magazine
https://www.google.com/search?q=King+edward+the+lion+dan+the+bengal+zora+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&gws_rd=ssl
Regal:
Lesson of the Lion TamersA large male lion named Regal had a dominating presence in the center ring, but that did not stop a puma in the same act from showing his resentment. At the end of every performance, as the big cats returned to their cages, the puma passed Regal’s pedestal and reached up, quickly clipping Regal on the leg. This continued for many weeks. As the lion tamer described: "I knew that real trouble was building, but I couldn’t think of any way to stop it. The animals are trained to leave the arena in a certain order; I couldn’t send Regal out first and so get him out of the puma’s way. I was afraid to interfere directly between the two animals; if I should chase Regal down from his seat, there almost certainly would have been a fight."Ultimately, "Regal decided to end the annoyance." "This time, when I cued the puma to go back to his cage, Regal was ready. Just as the puma was passing but before he had time to reach up and clip the lion, Regal leaned down and swung with such a haymaker as I have neverBefore seen. He caught the puma on the side of the neck, striking with such force that he severed the head from the body as cleanly as though it had been cut off by a headsman’s ax. The puma’s body fell limp at the foot of Regal’s pedestal, and the head flew across the arena, struck the bars on the far side and rebounded, to drop on the ground like a spent ball… "Regal was still on his seat. I cued him to go to his cage, and he got down, stepped across the blood that was flowing from the puma’s body, and returned to his cage. His attitude was that of one who has performed a necessary, though perhaps unpleasant duty. He had removed an annoyance, and there was nomore to be said on the subject. When he returned to the arena for the next performance,he never even glanced at the place where the puma had been.
"http://recruitusmc.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Katz-Lion-Taming_-Working-Successfully-with-Leaders-Bosses-and-Other-Tough-Customers-Sourcebooks-Inc.-2004.pdf
Boss tweeds:
Boss Tweed," Clyde said, "was one of the greatest fighters I've ever seen, in addition to his noble looks. He did some of his cleverest fighting in the Rochester Massacre. That was this spring. When Iwo score of lions and tigers were in the arena for a dress rehearsal. One, on a high seat, reached down to take a cuff at the cat below. They frequently do that without much happening. But in this case the caton the- high scat fell off and landed on the one below. The one below, thinking he was attacked, started to fight. In a second it was a free-for-all. In such a fight the lions have two distinct advantages. Their first is their thick mane which prevents the tigers from getting to their throats. Their second is their clannish way of ganging up on a tiger. A tiger will justwatch another tiger being attacked. The lions join each other. An animal attendant excitedly raised a gate into the shoot so the beasts could return to their cages. Into the shoot ran three Bengal tigers with Boss Tweed in pursuit. "For twenty minutes they battled. Boss Tweed killed the three tigers, but himself was almost torn to ribbons. He recovered but somehow he never seemed to be the same. His spirit or his fighting nerve was gone. The other morning I opened his cage door and he was dead, for seven years I trained him, the longest of any of my cats. I was greatly attached to him.
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/195707/
(edited 8 years ago)
FACTS
- Lions live more in the open (can easily be seen miles off)
- Lions roar more frequent, loudest, travels the farthest to unify, to challenge, (easier be spoted)
- Lions live in groups (so over 20 could have been killed all at once)
- Lions were at the time indias national symbol of power (hence the british would target them)
- Every man both sides British or indian would have a fire arm (they'd shoot anything that moves in the jungle)
- Lions are more braver an curious in confrontations, wouldnt have backed down unbeknownst of fire power
+ Leopards and tiger are solitary (hence only one would have been shot at a time)
+ Leopards and tigers are far more cunning, sly and seclusive, (hence spotting one is difficult)
+ Leopards and tigers dont raor as often or as loud
+ Leopards and tigers preffer densar mangroves, swamps and jungles, (trecking there would be difficult)
These seem to be the main reason why leopards and tigers survived the war and were still in great numbers, while lions were all but gone except for a few wondering prides picked off by either poachers, hunters or calvery men.
One man shot 300 lions:
https://books.google.com/books?id=FvvtCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA365&dq=George+Acland+Smith+300+lions+india&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz7srnzprLAhVS-2MKHcymDJwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=George Acland Smith 300 lions india&f=false
Two rulers, bundi killed 100 lions and jahangir killed 86.
Formerly lions were far more plentiful in this part of the country, and used to live more in the open plains. One cavalry officer a good many years ago, told me he had shot eighty lions i
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA142&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=26X4qZOuvecC&output=text
The European troops usually remain three years at each station, which permits them to make themselves comfortable. Abundance of game, (including the majestic elephant, the tiger, and some few lions, to the North-west in the desert, down to the diminutive quail,) is within a short distance of Meerut, and this is one reason for the preference most people give it.
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA146&id=_FMoAAAAYAAJ&output=text
In 1872 the Bhil Shikari of Mr. T. W. Miles brought in the skin of a full-grown Asiatic lioness which he had shot on the Anadra side of Mount Abu, and about the same year Colonel Hayland bagged four of the species nearJaswantpura, in Marwar. These were the last lions seen over the Kutch border of Marwar, and the Abu lioness was the last met with in Sirohi territory. They seem to have been more easily shot than tigers, as they returned more boldly to their "kills," thus becoming an easy prey to the Bhil Shikari who sat up for them
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA168&dq=%22marwar%22+lion+tiger&id=6ohCAAAAIAAJ&output=text
If just 5 men killed over 500 lions, in only a few decades, how much could an army of Britishers kill in two centurys 5,000, 50,000? They state that there are more hunting records of 19th century of tigers and leopards killed than lions, this is because:
1.) By then lions were already gone.
2.) An army of men are not hunters, they wouldnt have cared to record stud books for fame, they are there to eradicate anything in there path.
An to his knowledge, so far they only quoted several sources, the natural history of bombay, (which has over 200 different volumes) I dought they read all of them, and india has:
twenty five years back, lion, occured in many parts of the country, like
Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujrat, Maharashtra etc. Then it disappeared, quickly
and not gradually. The causes of the disappearance of the lion from these places,
could be man made...
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22twenty+five+years+back%2C+lion%2C+occured+in+many+parts+of+the+country%2C+like%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22twenty+five+years+back%2C+lion%2C+occured+in+many+parts+of+the+country%2C+like%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3..30i10.482726.488818.0.489022.4.4.0.0.0.0.563.1044.0j3j5-1.4.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..0.4.1041.a1VrsQZFets
Hunting excerpts show that the older indian lion, or the true asiatic lion, was nearly just as big and powerful as the african cousin:
The Bengal lion
has the mane magnificently developed, attains a very large stature, and displays equal courage with that of its African relative
https://books.google.com/books?id=DwFHAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22the+bengal+lion%22+tiger+%22india%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMI6pz96deExgIVg0GSCh0JpAAd#v=onepage&q=%22the%20bengal%20lion%22%20tiger%20%22india%22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=YK0QAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=%22the+bengal+lion%22+tiger+%22india%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAWoVChMI6pz96deExgIVg0GSCh0JpAAd#v=onepage&q=%22the%20bengal%20lion%22%20tiger%20%22india%22&f=false
and the dimensions of the skulls indicate that the Indian lion is of much the same size as the African animal, and the tiger.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22the+dimensions+of+the+skulls+indicate%22+tiger+lion
(asiatic lion)The lion is higher at the shoulder but shorter in the body than the tiger
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZP7fAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA199&dq=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shorter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBGoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tiger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false
The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder height
https://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA110&dq=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shorter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCGoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tiger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false
The lion, which was long supposed to be unknown in India, is now ascertained to exist in considerable numbers in the districts of Saharunpoor and Loodianah. Lions have likewise been killed on this side the Ganges in the northern parts of Rohilcund, in the neighbourhood of Moradabad and Rampoor, as large, it is said, as the average of those in the neighbourhood of the Cape of Good Hope. Both lions, where they are found, and tigers, are very troublesome to the people of the villages near the forest, who, having no elephants,
https://books.google.com/books?id=THsBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA248&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22ganges%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkmvDX_uPKAhVMzGMKHZdLCDU4ChDoAQghMAE#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22ganges%22&f=false
WHOS OLDER:
It is believed that lion entered India from Persia about 6000
years ago, and then
spread in northern India
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22It+is+believed+that+lion+entered+India+from+Persia+about+6000+years+ago%2C+and+then%22
The tiger is believed to have entered India from the northeast after the last Ice Age; most naturalists now seem to believe that the lion is the older inhabitant.
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=588&tbm=bks&q="The+tiger+is+believed+to+have+entered+India+from+the+northeast+after+the+last+Ice+Age;+most+naturalists+now+seem+to+believe+that+the+lion+is+the+older+inhabitant."&oq="The+tiger+is+believed+to+have+entered+India+from+the+northeast+after+the+last+Ice+Age;+most+naturalists+now+seem+to+believe+that+the+lion+is+the+older+inhabitant."&gs_l=serp.3...393853.396552.0.396759.3.3.0.0.0.0.147.147.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1j2.64.serp..2.0.0.tbTaFKQ8MdM
Among wild animals, one of the most familiar to the poets of the Rigveda is the
lion (simha). They describe him as living ... The king of beasts has, however,
remained ... The tiger is not mentioned in the Rigveda at all, its natural home
being the swampy jungles of Bengal, though he is now found in all the jungly
parts of India.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3kivAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22sanskrit%22%20lion%20tiger%20king&pg=PA147#v=onepage&q=%22sanskrit%22%20lion%20tiger%20king&f=false
Lions in the distant pass took ovet the ganges plains, as one of the oldest artifacts was a golden goblet with a lion on it, and a professor there states the older writings were more so of lions and not tigers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xu-O9eNmQXMC&lpg=PT74&dq=%22Rajgir%22%20lion%20tiger&pg=PT75#v=onepage&q=%22Rajgir%22%20lion%20tiger&f=true
The Illustrated Weekly of India
A common belief in India, even amongst some Indian forest servicemen, is that the tiger came into conflict with the lion and was finally defeated by it and exterminated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of the two, the lion is the older resident of India, and has a preference for a habitat which consists of open grassland and scrub or dry deciduous forest, whereas the habitat of the tiger varies from dry or moist deciduous forest with tall grass to wet tropical evergreen forest; the animal is also found in temperate montane forests of colder regions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22could+be+further+from+the+truth.+Of+the+two%2C+the+lion+is+the+older+resident+of+India%2C%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22could+be+further+from+the+truth.+Of+the+two%2C+the+lion+is+the+older+resident+of+India%2C%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...28438.33858.0.34045.3.2.0.1.0.0.125.236.0j2.2.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..3.0.0.yP5pfK8tMEI
In the last century, lions wore quite numerous in the Gangetic basin of th Uttar Pradesh. It is a historical fact that the Moghul Emperor Babar used to hunt lions in the forests along the Jumna River between Delhi and Agra.There is a belief that the Indian lion is the original inhabitant of India and not the
tiger. The tiger came into India later. This is supported by the fact that in the early Arayan literature 'singh', which is the name for lion, is mentioned and there is no mention anywhere of 'sher', or tiger. Also the carvings and statues in our ancient temples and palaces are of the lion and not of the tiger.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22There+is+a+belief+that+the+Indian+lion+is+the+original+inhabitant+of+India+and+not+the%22
As Mitra states lions are older in indias mythology
https://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&lpg=PA37&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%2016th%20%20century&pg=PA36#v=twopage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%2016th%20%20century&f=true
Lions were indigenous to india
https://books.google.com/books?id=w1PsYGwQdesC&lpg=PA68&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&f=false
Indigenous
https://books.google.com/books?id=MVoZGA2yfywC&lpg=PA57&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&f=false
ARCHAEOLOGY IN INDIA
Bulletin of museums and archaeology in Uttar Pradesh
On one side are the scenes of a fight between a lioness and a tiger, a lion
divouring an antilope and a lion killing a boar. On the other side, are seen the
struggles between a lion and a swords-man two stags ramming each other and a
lion ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22On+one+side+are+the+scenes+of+a+fight+between+a+lioness+and+a+tiger%2C+a+lion%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&spell=1&oq=%22On+one+side+are+the+scenes+of+a+fight+between+a+lioness+and+a+tiger%2C+a+lion%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...109754.114895.0.115099.4.3.0.1.0.0.502.889.0j1j1j5-1.3.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..4.0.0.1fPV7pwbsB0
The indian literature has volumes of prasie for the lion, not only the sanskrit literature but the Pali and Prakrat literature as well the latter literature of regional languages had an unparlleled praise for the grace of lion.Lion is profusely . depicted in Indian art and sculpture. In comparison to lion tiger had drawn lesser attention of the Indian intellegentia. The result was the lion became synonymous with royal power....
https://books.google.com/books?id=C_1BLUk6RYcC&lpg=PA22&dq=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&pg=PA22#v=twopage&q=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&f=false
The Asiatic lion, for example, is displayed in Van Vihar because its historic range included the state
https://books.google.com/books?id=8DT4xOpIzS0C&pg=PA1287&dq=%22pradesh%22+lion+%22tiger%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ikp2VcHfJZeeyATmxY6ICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&f=false
Lions were once inhabitants of the Gangis-basin through the 16th century:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GdKcAAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=13XlBHzEqi&dq=%22Ganges%20Basin%22%20%22lions%22&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q=%22Ganges%20Basin%22%20%22lions%22&f=true
Valmik thapar states taht the mughals brought them over, the mugal empire only came into power at the 15th century, lions were noted by over a thousand sites in india way before even the 10th century.
“many familys adopted the title singh to symbolize power and strength… the tiger was never considered as a title in india…raises the question of predominance of the lion over the tiger"
(A page from the mahabarata/War storys)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
Lion occurs in 65 passages of Mahabharata, the tiger only 11
http://books.google.com/books?id=...oX-iAKt6YCYCA&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw
The lion takes over, only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years
http://books.google.com/books?id=xY...a=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ
Occurrence of fossil lion and spotted hyena from. Pleistocene deposits ofSusunia, Bankura District, West Bengal.
Fossils were also recently found noted by Professor Chavda in the orissa area east india.
Artifact in gujarat done by a frence men in the 18th century:
Top left: Elephant and rhino fight
Top middle: Lion looking out on a rockery
Top right: Jungle scene
Bottom left: Lion biting the neck of a tiger
Bottom middle: Lion chasing a blue bull
Bottom right: Running sambar
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...jectID=4886609
Co-existing
In fact, the forest cover was so thick even in the 15th and 16th centuries A D. that
wild elephants buffaloes, lions and tigers were hunted in the upper Ganga plains
(Abul Fazal, Ain-I-Akbari, pp. 283-93).
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%2216th+centuries+A+D.+that+wild+elephants+buffaloes%2C+lions%22+
Ten species of felida are found S. of the Himalaya, including the lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, and the true cats (F.catvt).
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA203&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&output=text
They described the tigers, lions, and wild elephants in the thick jungles on the
banks of the Ganges. They said that "in the Ganges Valley, the people are
numerous and happy." Harsha was so kind a king, the scholars reported, that he
did not
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22They+described+the+tigers%2C+lions%2C+and+wild+elephants+in+the+thick+jungles+on+the+banks+of+the+Ganges.%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22They+described+the+tigers%2C+lions%2C+and+wild+elephants+in+the+thick+jungles+on+the+banks+of+the+Ganges.%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...3311.7317.0.7373.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.krBpUkouaxE
A few lions are said to inhabit the little desert westward of the Lonee, and wild hogs are very numerous about Balmer; but few tigers or leopards are ever heard of in Jodhpoor or Jesulmer, and are, I believe, never seen in the junguls of Beekaner. Neelgae and antelopes abound in Sind, and a few deer are to be found to eastward of the Great Desert;
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA170&dq=%22jaipoor%22+lion+tiger&id=DJ4IAAAAQAAJ&output=text
The lion (Felis leo) has now become extinct in these States, no specimen having been shot in either Marwar orSirohi for nearly thirty years. In 1872 the Bhil Shikari of Mr. T. W. Miles brought in the skin of a full-grown Asiatic lioness which he had shot on the Anadra side of Mount Abu, and about the same year Colonel Hayland bagged four of the species nearJaswantpura, in Marwar. These were the last lions seen over the Kutch border of Marwar, and the Abu lioness was the last met with in Sirohi territory. They seem to have been more easily shot than tigers, as they returned more boldly to their "kills," thus becoming an easy prey to the Bhil Shikari who sat up for them
The tiger (Felis tigris) is still to be found in many parts of Marwar and Sirohi,
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA168&dq=%22marwar%22+lion+tiger&id=6ohCAAAAIAAJ&output=text
The district lying between this village, Tuwukkul and Lukeeke, is the favourite resort of lions and tigers: a few days previous to our arrival the inhabitants killed a very largetiger; and on the 7th we saw the recent traces of alion, in a tamarisk jungle,
https://books.google.com/books?id=P1YoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA154&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22village+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidntrKgeTKAhUS5mMKHXEBDdYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22village%20of%22&f=false
Diad (Deesa).—This is a very hot station, but still much liked on account of the abundance of sport of all descriptions in the vicinity. It is the sole place in the known world where the lion and tiger prowl in the same jungles.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Vg0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA462&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22river%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjso-yN_uPKAhVK6GMKHVEHAjcQ6AEILzAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22river%22&f=false
Tiger. This animal is said to be much more cruel and cowardly than the lion, and to be even more bloodthirsty; but all writers do not agree on this subject. In India the tigers are the terror of man, and the animals ofthe jungle. The jungles of India, where sometimes the grass grows to nearly the height of an elephant, is the tiger's sleeping place. In the evening, the tamer animals wander down to the side of the river, to drink and refresh themselves after the heat of the day; then the tiger is found there too, waiting for them. Many fierce and bloody combats with lions, tigers, and crocodiles are said to take place near the Ganges and other rivers of India.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1JsDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA244&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22ganges%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqgby0_uPKAhUQ0GMKHaAiDjcQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22ganges%22&f=false
The problem with the general concenses is, that how much lions were actually there in india...
another source that compares rowlands wards lions to a small record keep of asiatic lions, had 73 lions accounted for in Gujarat:
With an extra 40 just from this one source:
The Literary Panorama
books.google.com
Charles Taylor - 1813 - Read - More editions
; besides tiger", and two leopards. •
Its a fact, that both lions and tigers were in the same vicinity's:
Lion on the elephant and tiger hunted at once:
This is common in alot of the archaeology in uttar predesh which is several states away from gujarat an more near bengal, many hunting scenes show mugals hunting both lion and tiger in the same art.
And even alot more in different districts...The word abundant and plentiful:
Library of Natural History
books.google.com
Richard Lydekker - 1902 - Read - More editions
With regard to the habits of lions, it is probable from the uniformly tawny color of these animals. that they were primitively ... Then again, whereas the Indian lion was formerly abundant in the sandy plains of Rajputana, the favorite haunts
...
books.google.com
James Sutherland Cotton, Sir Richard Burn, Sir William Stevenson Meyer - 1908 - Read - More editions
Until the beginning of the nineteenth century both lions and tigers appear to have been common, and the Nardak of the ... and in the neighbourhood of Sirsa and in other parts of the Punjab tigers were abundant until past the middle of the
Mammalia
books.google.com
Reginald Innes Pocock, John Reeves Ellerman - 1939 - Snippet view - More editions
This antagonism between lions and Europeans, with all their resources for destruction, has led to theextermination of lions in several areas of Africa where they were at one time plentiful. Man, too, was ... There is no reason to suppose that the two instances quoted in testimony of the wholesale slaughter of Indian lions in two districts were in any way exceptional where they were plentiful.
Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal
books.google.com
Asiatic Society (Calcutta, India) - 1840 - Read - More editions
I would rather presume, that by the adoption of the lion, the Sinha, the subduing of the lions among Indianmen, viz. the ... in not having ascertained the existence of the lion in our days in Hurriana, where they were a few years ago plentiful;
books.google.com
Harry Hamilton Johnston - 1986 - Preview - More editions
ing sports much more interest in the lion than in the tiger, which last was always more especially the favourite carnivore of the Hindus. In the seventeenth century the lion was still abundant in north-western India, Gujarat, and even the Dekkan,
...
That means, by just 7 sourced books, already theres nearly a 1,000 lions accounted for in the just one century in india...that also means the opine that lions were brought over in crates from africa is turning out to be more an more brittle by the account. Did the old rulers literally bring over 50,000 lions over a period of a few centurys?
It seems they are at a good start:
Very awesome.
- Lions live more in the open (can easily be seen miles off)
- Lions roar more frequent, loudest, travels the farthest to unify, to challenge, (easier be spoted)
- Lions live in groups (so over 20 could have been killed all at once)
- Lions were at the time indias national symbol of power (hence the british would target them)
- Every man both sides British or indian would have a fire arm (they'd shoot anything that moves in the jungle)
- Lions are more braver an curious in confrontations, wouldnt have backed down unbeknownst of fire power
+ Leopards and tiger are solitary (hence only one would have been shot at a time)
+ Leopards and tigers are far more cunning, sly and seclusive, (hence spotting one is difficult)
+ Leopards and tigers dont raor as often or as loud
+ Leopards and tigers preffer densar mangroves, swamps and jungles, (trecking there would be difficult)
These seem to be the main reason why leopards and tigers survived the war and were still in great numbers, while lions were all but gone except for a few wondering prides picked off by either poachers, hunters or calvery men.
One man shot 300 lions:
https://books.google.com/books?id=FvvtCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA365&dq=George+Acland+Smith+300+lions+india&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz7srnzprLAhVS-2MKHcymDJwQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=George Acland Smith 300 lions india&f=false
Two rulers, bundi killed 100 lions and jahangir killed 86.
Formerly lions were far more plentiful in this part of the country, and used to live more in the open plains. One cavalry officer a good many years ago, told me he had shot eighty lions i
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA142&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=26X4qZOuvecC&output=text
The European troops usually remain three years at each station, which permits them to make themselves comfortable. Abundance of game, (including the majestic elephant, the tiger, and some few lions, to the North-west in the desert, down to the diminutive quail,) is within a short distance of Meerut, and this is one reason for the preference most people give it.
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA146&id=_FMoAAAAYAAJ&output=text
In 1872 the Bhil Shikari of Mr. T. W. Miles brought in the skin of a full-grown Asiatic lioness which he had shot on the Anadra side of Mount Abu, and about the same year Colonel Hayland bagged four of the species nearJaswantpura, in Marwar. These were the last lions seen over the Kutch border of Marwar, and the Abu lioness was the last met with in Sirohi territory. They seem to have been more easily shot than tigers, as they returned more boldly to their "kills," thus becoming an easy prey to the Bhil Shikari who sat up for them
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA168&dq=%22marwar%22+lion+tiger&id=6ohCAAAAIAAJ&output=text
If just 5 men killed over 500 lions, in only a few decades, how much could an army of Britishers kill in two centurys 5,000, 50,000? They state that there are more hunting records of 19th century of tigers and leopards killed than lions, this is because:
1.) By then lions were already gone.
2.) An army of men are not hunters, they wouldnt have cared to record stud books for fame, they are there to eradicate anything in there path.
An to his knowledge, so far they only quoted several sources, the natural history of bombay, (which has over 200 different volumes) I dought they read all of them, and india has:
twenty five years back, lion, occured in many parts of the country, like
Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujrat, Maharashtra etc. Then it disappeared, quickly
and not gradually. The causes of the disappearance of the lion from these places,
could be man made...
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22twenty+five+years+back%2C+lion%2C+occured+in+many+parts+of+the+country%2C+like%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22twenty+five+years+back%2C+lion%2C+occured+in+many+parts+of+the+country%2C+like%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3..30i10.482726.488818.0.489022.4.4.0.0.0.0.563.1044.0j3j5-1.4.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..0.4.1041.a1VrsQZFets
Hunting excerpts show that the older indian lion, or the true asiatic lion, was nearly just as big and powerful as the african cousin:
The Bengal lion
has the mane magnificently developed, attains a very large stature, and displays equal courage with that of its African relative
https://books.google.com/books?id=DwFHAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA42&dq=%22the+bengal+lion%22+tiger+%22india%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAGoVChMI6pz96deExgIVg0GSCh0JpAAd#v=onepage&q=%22the%20bengal%20lion%22%20tiger%20%22india%22&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=YK0QAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA167&dq=%22the+bengal+lion%22+tiger+%22india%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAWoVChMI6pz96deExgIVg0GSCh0JpAAd#v=onepage&q=%22the%20bengal%20lion%22%20tiger%20%22india%22&f=false
and the dimensions of the skulls indicate that the Indian lion is of much the same size as the African animal, and the tiger.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22the+dimensions+of+the+skulls+indicate%22+tiger+lion
(asiatic lion)The lion is higher at the shoulder but shorter in the body than the tiger
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZP7fAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA199&dq=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shorter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwBGoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tiger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false
The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder height
https://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&pg=PA110&dq=%22lion%22+%22tiger%22+%22shorter%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEMQ6AEwCGoVChMIvZ28jMSOxgIVSouSCh3QywAn#v=onepage&q=%22lion%22%20%22tiger%22%20%22shorter%22&f=false
The lion, which was long supposed to be unknown in India, is now ascertained to exist in considerable numbers in the districts of Saharunpoor and Loodianah. Lions have likewise been killed on this side the Ganges in the northern parts of Rohilcund, in the neighbourhood of Moradabad and Rampoor, as large, it is said, as the average of those in the neighbourhood of the Cape of Good Hope. Both lions, where they are found, and tigers, are very troublesome to the people of the villages near the forest, who, having no elephants,
https://books.google.com/books?id=THsBAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA248&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22ganges%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkmvDX_uPKAhVMzGMKHZdLCDU4ChDoAQghMAE#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22ganges%22&f=false
WHOS OLDER:
It is believed that lion entered India from Persia about 6000
years ago, and then
spread in northern India
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22It+is+believed+that+lion+entered+India+from+Persia+about+6000+years+ago%2C+and+then%22
The tiger is believed to have entered India from the northeast after the last Ice Age; most naturalists now seem to believe that the lion is the older inhabitant.
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=588&tbm=bks&q="The+tiger+is+believed+to+have+entered+India+from+the+northeast+after+the+last+Ice+Age;+most+naturalists+now+seem+to+believe+that+the+lion+is+the+older+inhabitant."&oq="The+tiger+is+believed+to+have+entered+India+from+the+northeast+after+the+last+Ice+Age;+most+naturalists+now+seem+to+believe+that+the+lion+is+the+older+inhabitant."&gs_l=serp.3...393853.396552.0.396759.3.3.0.0.0.0.147.147.0j1.1.0....0...1c.1j2.64.serp..2.0.0.tbTaFKQ8MdM
Among wild animals, one of the most familiar to the poets of the Rigveda is the
lion (simha). They describe him as living ... The king of beasts has, however,
remained ... The tiger is not mentioned in the Rigveda at all, its natural home
being the swampy jungles of Bengal, though he is now found in all the jungly
parts of India.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3kivAAAAIAAJ&dq=%22sanskrit%22%20lion%20tiger%20king&pg=PA147#v=onepage&q=%22sanskrit%22%20lion%20tiger%20king&f=false
Lions in the distant pass took ovet the ganges plains, as one of the oldest artifacts was a golden goblet with a lion on it, and a professor there states the older writings were more so of lions and not tigers:
https://books.google.com/books?id=xu-O9eNmQXMC&lpg=PT74&dq=%22Rajgir%22%20lion%20tiger&pg=PT75#v=onepage&q=%22Rajgir%22%20lion%20tiger&f=true
The Illustrated Weekly of India
A common belief in India, even amongst some Indian forest servicemen, is that the tiger came into conflict with the lion and was finally defeated by it and exterminated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of the two, the lion is the older resident of India, and has a preference for a habitat which consists of open grassland and scrub or dry deciduous forest, whereas the habitat of the tiger varies from dry or moist deciduous forest with tall grass to wet tropical evergreen forest; the animal is also found in temperate montane forests of colder regions.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22could+be+further+from+the+truth.+Of+the+two%2C+the+lion+is+the+older+resident+of+India%2C%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22could+be+further+from+the+truth.+Of+the+two%2C+the+lion+is+the+older+resident+of+India%2C%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...28438.33858.0.34045.3.2.0.1.0.0.125.236.0j2.2.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..3.0.0.yP5pfK8tMEI
In the last century, lions wore quite numerous in the Gangetic basin of th Uttar Pradesh. It is a historical fact that the Moghul Emperor Babar used to hunt lions in the forests along the Jumna River between Delhi and Agra.There is a belief that the Indian lion is the original inhabitant of India and not the
tiger. The tiger came into India later. This is supported by the fact that in the early Arayan literature 'singh', which is the name for lion, is mentioned and there is no mention anywhere of 'sher', or tiger. Also the carvings and statues in our ancient temples and palaces are of the lion and not of the tiger.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%22There+is+a+belief+that+the+Indian+lion+is+the+original+inhabitant+of+India+and+not+the%22
As Mitra states lions are older in indias mythology
https://books.google.com/books?id=J0rME6RjC1sC&lpg=PA37&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%2016th%20%20century&pg=PA36#v=twopage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%2016th%20%20century&f=true
Lions were indigenous to india
https://books.google.com/books?id=w1PsYGwQdesC&lpg=PA68&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&f=false
Indigenous
https://books.google.com/books?id=MVoZGA2yfywC&lpg=PA57&dq=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&pg=PA57#v=onepage&q=%22lions%22%20%22India%22%20%20Indigenous&f=false
ARCHAEOLOGY IN INDIA
Bulletin of museums and archaeology in Uttar Pradesh
On one side are the scenes of a fight between a lioness and a tiger, a lion
divouring an antilope and a lion killing a boar. On the other side, are seen the
struggles between a lion and a swords-man two stags ramming each other and a
lion ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22On+one+side+are+the+scenes+of+a+fight+between+a+lioness+and+a+tiger%2C+a+lion%22&hl=en&tbm=bks&spell=1&oq=%22On+one+side+are+the+scenes+of+a+fight+between+a+lioness+and+a+tiger%2C+a+lion%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...109754.114895.0.115099.4.3.0.1.0.0.502.889.0j1j1j5-1.3.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..4.0.0.1fPV7pwbsB0
The indian literature has volumes of prasie for the lion, not only the sanskrit literature but the Pali and Prakrat literature as well the latter literature of regional languages had an unparlleled praise for the grace of lion.Lion is profusely . depicted in Indian art and sculpture. In comparison to lion tiger had drawn lesser attention of the Indian intellegentia. The result was the lion became synonymous with royal power....
https://books.google.com/books?id=C_1BLUk6RYcC&lpg=PA22&dq=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&pg=PA22#v=twopage&q=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&f=false
The Asiatic lion, for example, is displayed in Van Vihar because its historic range included the state
https://books.google.com/books?id=8DT4xOpIzS0C&pg=PA1287&dq=%22pradesh%22+lion+%22tiger%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ikp2VcHfJZeeyATmxY6ICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22pradesh%22%20lion%20%22tiger%22&f=false
Lions were once inhabitants of the Gangis-basin through the 16th century:
https://books.google.com/books?id=GdKcAAAAQBAJ&lpg=PA87&ots=13XlBHzEqi&dq=%22Ganges%20Basin%22%20%22lions%22&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q=%22Ganges%20Basin%22%20%22lions%22&f=true
Valmik thapar states taht the mughals brought them over, the mugal empire only came into power at the 15th century, lions were noted by over a thousand sites in india way before even the 10th century.
“many familys adopted the title singh to symbolize power and strength… the tiger was never considered as a title in india…raises the question of predominance of the lion over the tiger"
(A page from the mahabarata/War storys)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahabharata
Lion occurs in 65 passages of Mahabharata, the tiger only 11
http://books.google.com/books?id=...oX-iAKt6YCYCA&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw
The lion takes over, only in 1972 was the tiger declared Indias national animal at last replacing the lion that was ruled so meaninglessly for more than 2,000 years
http://books.google.com/books?id=xY...a=X&ei=sqCRUJrREYbmiwLq2oDQDQ&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ
Occurrence of fossil lion and spotted hyena from. Pleistocene deposits ofSusunia, Bankura District, West Bengal.
Fossils were also recently found noted by Professor Chavda in the orissa area east india.
Artifact in gujarat done by a frence men in the 18th century:
Top left: Elephant and rhino fight
Top middle: Lion looking out on a rockery
Top right: Jungle scene
Bottom left: Lion biting the neck of a tiger
Bottom middle: Lion chasing a blue bull
Bottom right: Running sambar
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/L...jectID=4886609
Co-existing
In fact, the forest cover was so thick even in the 15th and 16th centuries A D. that
wild elephants buffaloes, lions and tigers were hunted in the upper Ganga plains
(Abul Fazal, Ain-I-Akbari, pp. 283-93).
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=%2216th+centuries+A+D.+that+wild+elephants+buffaloes%2C+lions%22+
Ten species of felida are found S. of the Himalaya, including the lion, tiger, leopard, cheetah, and the true cats (F.catvt).
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA203&dq=%22years+ago%22+lion+tiger+india&id=pkZMAAAAMAAJ&output=text
They described the tigers, lions, and wild elephants in the thick jungles on the
banks of the Ganges. They said that "in the Ganges Valley, the people are
numerous and happy." Harsha was so kind a king, the scholars reported, that he
did not
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22They+described+the+tigers%2C+lions%2C+and+wild+elephants+in+the+thick+jungles+on+the+banks+of+the+Ganges.%22&tbm=bks&tbo=1&oq=%22They+described+the+tigers%2C+lions%2C+and+wild+elephants+in+the+thick+jungles+on+the+banks+of+the+Ganges.%22&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...3311.7317.0.7373.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.krBpUkouaxE
A few lions are said to inhabit the little desert westward of the Lonee, and wild hogs are very numerous about Balmer; but few tigers or leopards are ever heard of in Jodhpoor or Jesulmer, and are, I believe, never seen in the junguls of Beekaner. Neelgae and antelopes abound in Sind, and a few deer are to be found to eastward of the Great Desert;
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA170&dq=%22jaipoor%22+lion+tiger&id=DJ4IAAAAQAAJ&output=text
The lion (Felis leo) has now become extinct in these States, no specimen having been shot in either Marwar orSirohi for nearly thirty years. In 1872 the Bhil Shikari of Mr. T. W. Miles brought in the skin of a full-grown Asiatic lioness which he had shot on the Anadra side of Mount Abu, and about the same year Colonel Hayland bagged four of the species nearJaswantpura, in Marwar. These were the last lions seen over the Kutch border of Marwar, and the Abu lioness was the last met with in Sirohi territory. They seem to have been more easily shot than tigers, as they returned more boldly to their "kills," thus becoming an easy prey to the Bhil Shikari who sat up for them
The tiger (Felis tigris) is still to be found in many parts of Marwar and Sirohi,
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA168&dq=%22marwar%22+lion+tiger&id=6ohCAAAAIAAJ&output=text
The district lying between this village, Tuwukkul and Lukeeke, is the favourite resort of lions and tigers: a few days previous to our arrival the inhabitants killed a very largetiger; and on the 7th we saw the recent traces of alion, in a tamarisk jungle,
https://books.google.com/books?id=P1YoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA154&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22village+of%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidntrKgeTKAhUS5mMKHXEBDdYQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22village%20of%22&f=false
Diad (Deesa).—This is a very hot station, but still much liked on account of the abundance of sport of all descriptions in the vicinity. It is the sole place in the known world where the lion and tiger prowl in the same jungles.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Vg0IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA462&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22river%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjso-yN_uPKAhVK6GMKHVEHAjcQ6AEILzAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22river%22&f=false
Tiger. This animal is said to be much more cruel and cowardly than the lion, and to be even more bloodthirsty; but all writers do not agree on this subject. In India the tigers are the terror of man, and the animals ofthe jungle. The jungles of India, where sometimes the grass grows to nearly the height of an elephant, is the tiger's sleeping place. In the evening, the tamer animals wander down to the side of the river, to drink and refresh themselves after the heat of the day; then the tiger is found there too, waiting for them. Many fierce and bloody combats with lions, tigers, and crocodiles are said to take place near the Ganges and other rivers of India.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1JsDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA244&dq=%22india%22+lion+tiger++%22ganges%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqgby0_uPKAhUQ0GMKHaAiDjcQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22india%22%20lion%20tiger%20%20%22ganges%22&f=false
The problem with the general concenses is, that how much lions were actually there in india...
another source that compares rowlands wards lions to a small record keep of asiatic lions, had 73 lions accounted for in Gujarat:
With an extra 40 just from this one source:
The Literary Panorama
books.google.com
Charles Taylor - 1813 - Read - More editions
; besides tiger", and two leopards. •
Its a fact, that both lions and tigers were in the same vicinity's:
Lion on the elephant and tiger hunted at once:
This is common in alot of the archaeology in uttar predesh which is several states away from gujarat an more near bengal, many hunting scenes show mugals hunting both lion and tiger in the same art.
And even alot more in different districts...The word abundant and plentiful:
Library of Natural History
books.google.com
Richard Lydekker - 1902 - Read - More editions
With regard to the habits of lions, it is probable from the uniformly tawny color of these animals. that they were primitively ... Then again, whereas the Indian lion was formerly abundant in the sandy plains of Rajputana, the favorite haunts
...
books.google.com
James Sutherland Cotton, Sir Richard Burn, Sir William Stevenson Meyer - 1908 - Read - More editions
Until the beginning of the nineteenth century both lions and tigers appear to have been common, and the Nardak of the ... and in the neighbourhood of Sirsa and in other parts of the Punjab tigers were abundant until past the middle of the
Mammalia
books.google.com
Reginald Innes Pocock, John Reeves Ellerman - 1939 - Snippet view - More editions
This antagonism between lions and Europeans, with all their resources for destruction, has led to theextermination of lions in several areas of Africa where they were at one time plentiful. Man, too, was ... There is no reason to suppose that the two instances quoted in testimony of the wholesale slaughter of Indian lions in two districts were in any way exceptional where they were plentiful.
Journal of the Asiatic Society of Bengal
books.google.com
Asiatic Society (Calcutta, India) - 1840 - Read - More editions
I would rather presume, that by the adoption of the lion, the Sinha, the subduing of the lions among Indianmen, viz. the ... in not having ascertained the existence of the lion in our days in Hurriana, where they were a few years ago plentiful;
•
, Ceylon, Bhutan & Tibet
books.google.com
Harry Hamilton Johnston - 1986 - Preview - More editions
ing sports much more interest in the lion than in the tiger, which last was always more especially the favourite carnivore of the Hindus. In the seventeenth century the lion was still abundant in north-western India, Gujarat, and even the Dekkan,
...
That means, by just 7 sourced books, already theres nearly a 1,000 lions accounted for in the just one century in india...that also means the opine that lions were brought over in crates from africa is turning out to be more an more brittle by the account. Did the old rulers literally bring over 50,000 lions over a period of a few centurys?
It seems they are at a good start:
Very awesome.
(edited 8 years ago)
cool, the thread got moved back to the chat section....thanks admin
Professor: John Campbell Merri
am
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/merriam.html
The asiatic lion was known to kill the siberian tiger when they roamed farther north of india:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...0/ed-1/seq-39/
Russian artifact of a lion biting the neck of a tiger:
Archaeologists discovered almost 5,000 decorative gold pieces including earrings, pendants and beads. The pieces contain representations of many local animals from the period including panthers, lions, bears and deer
.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_art
http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/11208
http://www.catsg.org/index.php?id=410
Professor: John Campbell Merri
am
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/history/merriam.html
The asiatic lion was known to kill the siberian tiger when they roamed farther north of india:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...0/ed-1/seq-39/Russian artifact of a lion biting the neck of a tiger:
Archaeologists discovered almost 5,000 decorative gold pieces including earrings, pendants and beads. The pieces contain representations of many local animals from the period including panthers, lions, bears and deer
.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian_art
http://programmes.putin.kremlin.ru/en/tiger/news/11208http://www.catsg.org/index.php?id=410
(edited 8 years ago)
Stength of the lions strikes
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36072
The lions armored mane
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987
Some interesting videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5otS5rqyY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIiG6pPXZjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_DJzRSuXA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zmUE8e3wK0
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36072
The lions armored mane
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35987
Some interesting videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i5otS5rqyY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIiG6pPXZjY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_DJzRSuXA0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zmUE8e3wK0
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Sword of Justice
When most people think of lions, they think soley african, but lions have traveled past the continent and into several others as well in the past, the asiatic lion who reached the same places there held tigers, most notedly, india:
[(...)
[(...)
They can be friends, too!
Original post by Reformed
why cant they just get along?
They CAN.
They've been friends for many years! <3
Yup. Very cool
Original post by Ciel.
They can be friends, too!
They CAN.
They've been friends for many years! <3
They CAN.
They've been friends for many years! <3
With my extensive experience of cats, I would say that there is one thing responsible for this :
Wow, interesting...two votes for the asiatic lion already, I thought absolutely no body would have voted for the indian lion as all the talk on the web has the bengal tiger with like a 10/10 win over the so called puny asiatic lion. lol
I didnt make it african lion vs bengal tiger, because it seems Clyde beatty single handedly inadvertently proved that the african lion is superior to the bengal:
https://www.newspapers.com/image/82575405/?terms=Clyde%2BBeatty%2Blion%2Bfights%2Btigers
Youve probably already have seen his film the big cage, and have seen a ton of tiger fans who said it was female tigers, sumatran tigers, sickly tigers or any other type of excuse, but heres the full details:
, 5 different news sources report the tiger died after
the hose was spraying. 3 male tigers died in the making of the scene. Note the image on the lower right shows a lion with a death grip on a tiger.
3 tigers died, in the the big cage movie from a lion which was made in 1933
.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws....70d5e4a2_r.jpg
1st fight, Sultan the lion kills a wild tiger named Tommy:The first fight in the Bigcage actually gave the advantage to the tiger. Beatty allowed for the tiger to jump the lion by surprise.The lion did not see the tiger, it was focused on attacking Beatty instead. The tiger chosen, was untamed, wild, it had never been in the cage with a lion nor in Beatty's act. The untamed tiger waschosen on purpose so that a good fight would ensue for the film
.
Most of the movie stars watching the first fight, bet on the tiger. But, Beatty noted the tiger always commits itself hanging on first where ever it can grab hold.The lion appears to not commit itself to the hold first, but only commits itself if its able to bite a vital area. 
Here is the full link and article to this account. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/76673362
2nd Fight, Caesar the lion, kills Bobby the tiger.
This is Caesar the lion below, he has a belly mane, not the same lion we see which
is shown in the 3rd fight. The tiger on the right is Bobby, which Caesar killed, again
this fight is not shown on film.
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1
The 3rd fight, is the fight we see on film. After the hose was spraying, the lion killed the male tiger.Several news sources below report this, the tiger was bitten through the kidney.
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpghttp://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpg
http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/Leofwin/media/liontigeraccount5.jpg.html?t=1312674003
Saturday May 27, 1933, Santa Cruz News, page
3.
More evidence the 3rd male tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Under the
column "observations" and title "bits about film here and coming." The article says the
studio reported the tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Which is not shown on film.
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933%20-%204205.pdf
And its not as if Clyde beatty was the only trainer this has happened to:
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/8/Lion-fights-male-tigers#.VtqaIZwrLIU
But anyways, back to the indian lions debate:
Some say that the indian lion was just imported into india, but wheres the logic in that, lions follow earths largest mega faunas, or herds...why? Because single animal like a sambar, or chital, or blue bull cannot sustain lions who live in large groups, os it only makes sense that the cave lions followed the mammoth, african lions followed the bush elephant, and indian lions would have followed the asiatic elephant, nature always balances out a prey with a predator, and tigers dont even kill 20 elephants a year, yet one pride the savuti, killed over a 100 elephants in little time. Even solitary males have killed quite large elephants on their own:
A lone lion who killed a pretty big elephant:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22this+male+killed+this+elephant+entirely+on+its+own%22&cad=h
Hence indian lions would be a natural part of indias eco-system.
lions kill male white rhino
https://books.google.com/books?id=1jT72JdLVIcC&pg=PA158&dq=lions+killed+two+adult+rhinos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuiejDvKnLAhXDMGMKHel3AiYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=lions%20killed%20two%20adult%20rhinos&f=false
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Lion+v.+Rhino+A+YOUNG+%22mature+rhino+was+killed+by+a+pride+of+lion+near+Lerai+Forest.+The+rhino+had+been+battered+around+its+neck+which+was+lacerated+by+lion+claws%3B+as+there+was+no+evidence+on+the+ground+of+a+fight+or+struggle+I+can+only
Herbert and Austen (1972)record the killing by lions of an adult rhino which was released in the Wankie National Park.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Herbert+and+Austen+%281972%29+record+the+killing+by+lions+of+an+adult+rhino+which+was+released+in+the+Wankie+National+Park.
Four animals (three bulls and one cow) were known to have succumbed from fatal wounds.... Attacks by lions (Panthera leo) on adult rhinos have been seen on two occasions in the Okaukeujo and Halali areas.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Four+animals+%28three+bulls+and+one+cow%29+were+known+to+have+succumbed+from+fatal+wounds.#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22Attacks+by+lions+(Panthera+leo)+on+adult+rhinos+have+been+seen+on+two+occasions+in+the+Okaukeujo+and+Halali+areas.%22
All the art that hails from india shows things as lions in the wildreness...not as thapar claims, in cann hunts barricaded fences:
The lions presence in asia is also quite heavly documented:
Historian colemen
"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/s...22E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art and Culture&h2=Museums
Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.
~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams
Thats as far back as the second century B-C, he wants me to believe, rulers back in the BC times, transported lions from africa to persia, only to re-transport them to china? lol Valmik doesnt scholar in anything on the asiatic lion, his life knowledge is just the conservation of tigers.
Guo Pu or Kwoh P'oh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Pu
Also, in the Western Jin, the annotation by Guo Pu to Erya indicates that "suanni" is actually another word for a lion that made its way into China from western regions.
http://theme.npm.edu.tw/exh102/oversized10201/en/ch01.html
Lion and prostrate Tiger
A lion to be presented by the barbarian King of Po-ssu was captured and retained by the rebel Mo-ch’I Ch’ou-nu while on its way to the capital. Toward the end of Yung-an (A.D 530), with the downfall of [Mo-ch’I] Ch’oi-nu,, [the lion] finally reached the capital. Emperor chuang said to Li Yu, the Chief Palace attendent, We have heard that when a tiger sees a lion, it will always lay prostrate. Lets get a tiger and try to find out wheather this is true.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lO...a=X&ei=uohxVPKbCJSyoQTwt4LwBg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw
Lets see what the synonyms of Prostrate are:
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/prostrate
So:
-Beaten
-Paralayzed
-Defensless
-Weak
-Overwhelmed
-Over Powered
-Exhausted
-Immobilized
-Knocked over
Tibet:
http://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2011/
A young lion comes from tibet and it is said to eat tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=f6...a=X&ei=vhlHVKeMFtCyyASnnoDwAw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
(Suanni) Lion On the ancient Chinese dictionary, Erhya (é¢âÎ ûr y®£), there is an ancient and probably indigenous Chinese term for the lion. This term is Suanni (“©‡« suÇn ní), described as a light-colored tiger (or feline) which eats other tigers and leopards and identified by the earliest commentators with the Han lion, Shizi. It
http://www.cozychinese.com/lion-shi/
It shows that during the fighting between a lion and a tiger, the tiger is killed and eaten by the lion.
http://maskdance.com/japanese/sub3/sub1.asp?bseq=7&cat=-1&sk=&sv=&page=1&mode=view&aseq=7
Monk Huilin said: "Suan Ni is the Lion, the Western
Regions."
2. The sixth is the Suan Ni, is a beast can be eating tigers and leopards.
http://danci.911cha.com/狻猊.html
(15th century Puntsaou)
The Lion, designated by a character which implies, that it is the chief among carnivorous animals... It preys upon the tiger, the leopard, and the yu, another species of the feline race...naturalists, quoted in the Punt-saou, assert, he is the prince, that is, second to the king among the beasts of the field.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA...IBw&id=KrwRAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
The Forbidden City is divided into an outer and an inner court. We are now standing on the southernmost part of the outer court. In front of us lies the Gate of Supreme Harmony. The gate is guarded by a pair of bronze lions, symbolizing imperial power and dignity. The lions were the most exquisite and the biggest of its kind.…
According to the ancient record the lion was also called Suanni. The historical books Hou Han Shu (History of the Late Han Dynasty) and Dong Guan Han Ji have it that by the reign of emperors Zhang and Shun of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220 A.D.) lions were brought in by envoys from the States of Anxi and Shule. Yu Shinan, a famous calligrapher of the Tang Dynasty described the animal in his Ode to the Lions:"Its eyesight is like a shaft of lightning and its roaring, a peal of thunder." And in this way the nimble but ferocious beast was vividly brought forth in his writing. In ancient China, lions were used to guard tombs, carved in grottoes and made onto articles for daily use. For example, you can find stone lions of the Han and Tang dynasties, the pieces of brocade with lion patterns discovered on the Silk Road, the lion as a ride for Bodhisattva Manjusri in the Stone Cave Temple, the bronze mirror with lion patterns of the Tang Dynasty, seal with a lion - shaped knob of the Northern and Southern dynasties as well as porcelain pillows and toys...
The lion, an animal from an exotic land, was the king of all beasts, able to safe-guard hills and mountains. Suanni, a legendary and ferocious beast, able to devour tigers and leopards, signified that all mountains around were under unified governance and all beasts at his command.
http://www.conference.ac.cn/BeijingGuide/ForbiddenCity.htm
All the chinese records about lions eating tigers when confined together is seen even on video today:
Lioness trys to eat tiger, is saved by male lion:
Qing dynasty 16th century:
http://www.cang.com/trade/show-5850966-2.html
Tocharians
The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.
(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)
It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,
It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,
It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm
“A glourious event in the past”
The lion was even more savage then the tiger.
~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang Exotics University of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z...ost+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
Emperor wu started breeding lions
http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/08/22/2921s841409_2.htm
Terrace and stone sculptures at Songling, tombs of the Song Dynasty in Gongyi City, Henan
Surrounding the tomb terrace were four walls; inside the wall corners were four watchtowers... were pairs ofstone lions.
http://www.china.org.cn/features/atam/2005-01/07/content_1115232.htm
So I guess you could count those in as the asiatic lion winning against some bengals, because some of the artifacts show a white tiger, which only happens in the bengal sub-species. I think the biggest probalem woukld be that the tiger is un-protected at the neck in a fight, if a small dog can kill a tiger by biting the tigers neck, than the lions mane is a big advantage:
Example of the tigers neck not protected:
Heres two cases where a single small dog killed tigers:
Against everyone's expectations, it furiously sprang at the tiger's throat, and would not let go its hold, though torn by the nails of the infuriated beast, and finally both died
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Against+everyone%27s+expectations%2C+it+furiously+sprang+at+the+tiger%27s+throat%2C+and+would+not+let+go+its+hold%2C%22+killed
Once Hideyoshi gave a live dog to his pet tiger as a treat; buf the animal, realizing the situation before the tiger did, seized the tiger by the throat and choked it to death before it could defend itself, though the dog too died from its wounds.
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Once+Hideyoshi+gave+a+live+dog+to+his+pet+tiger+as+a+treat%3B+buf+the+animal%2C+realizing+the+situation+before+the+tiger+did%2C+seized+the+tiger+by+the+throat+and+choked+it+to+death+before+it+could+defend+itself%2C+though+the+dog+too+died+from+its+wounds.%22
So its more about who gets the first grab, and again...because the lion has a mane that protects most of his body, the will have a big advantage in the fight:
have attacked tigers, and every time the tiger was overcome. Evidently, the ...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=+%22have+attacked+tigers%2C+and+every+time+the+tiger+was+overcome.+Evidently%2C+the%22
I didnt make it african lion vs bengal tiger, because it seems Clyde beatty single handedly inadvertently proved that the african lion is superior to the bengal:
https://www.newspapers.com/image/82575405/?terms=Clyde%2BBeatty%2Blion%2Bfights%2BtigersYouve probably already have seen his film the big cage, and have seen a ton of tiger fans who said it was female tigers, sumatran tigers, sickly tigers or any other type of excuse, but heres the full details:
, 5 different news sources report the tiger died after
the hose was spraying. 3 male tigers died in the making of the scene. Note the image on the lower right shows a lion with a death grip on a tiger.
3 tigers died, in the the big cage movie from a lion which was made in 1933
.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws....70d5e4a2_r.jpg
1st fight, Sultan the lion kills a wild tiger named Tommy:The first fight in the Bigcage actually gave the advantage to the tiger. Beatty allowed for the tiger to jump the lion by surprise.The lion did not see the tiger, it was focused on attacking Beatty instead. The tiger chosen, was untamed, wild, it had never been in the cage with a lion nor in Beatty's act. The untamed tiger waschosen on purpose so that a good fight would ensue for the film
.
Most of the movie stars watching the first fight, bet on the tiger. But, Beatty noted the tiger always commits itself hanging on first where ever it can grab hold.The lion appears to not commit itself to the hold first, but only commits itself if its able to bite a vital area. Here is the full link and article to this account. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/766733622nd Fight, Caesar the lion, kills Bobby the tiger.
This is Caesar the lion below, he has a belly mane, not the same lion we see which
is shown in the 3rd fight. The tiger on the right is Bobby, which Caesar killed, again
this fight is not shown on film.
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1
The 3rd fight, is the fight we see on film. After the hose was spraying, the lion killed the male tiger.Several news sources below report this, the tiger was bitten through the kidney.
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpghttp://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpg
http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/Leofwin/media/liontigeraccount5.jpg.html?t=1312674003
Saturday May 27, 1933, Santa Cruz News, page
3.
More evidence the 3rd male tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Under the
column "observations" and title "bits about film here and coming." The article says the
studio reported the tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Which is not shown on film.
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933%20-%204205.pdfAnd its not as if Clyde beatty was the only trainer this has happened to:
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/8/Lion-fights-male-tigers#.VtqaIZwrLIU
But anyways, back to the indian lions debate:
Some say that the indian lion was just imported into india, but wheres the logic in that, lions follow earths largest mega faunas, or herds...why? Because single animal like a sambar, or chital, or blue bull cannot sustain lions who live in large groups, os it only makes sense that the cave lions followed the mammoth, african lions followed the bush elephant, and indian lions would have followed the asiatic elephant, nature always balances out a prey with a predator, and tigers dont even kill 20 elephants a year, yet one pride the savuti, killed over a 100 elephants in little time. Even solitary males have killed quite large elephants on their own:
A lone lion who killed a pretty big elephant:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22this+male+killed+this+elephant+entirely+on+its+own%22&cad=h
Hence indian lions would be a natural part of indias eco-system.
lions kill male white rhino
https://books.google.com/books?id=1jT72JdLVIcC&pg=PA158&dq=lions+killed+two+adult+rhinos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuiejDvKnLAhXDMGMKHel3AiYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=lions%20killed%20two%20adult%20rhinos&f=false
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Lion+v.+Rhino+A+YOUNG+%22mature+rhino+was+killed+by+a+pride+of+lion+near+Lerai+Forest.+The+rhino+had+been+battered+around+its+neck+which+was+lacerated+by+lion+claws%3B+as+there+was+no+evidence+on+the+ground+of+a+fight+or+struggle+I+can+only
Herbert and Austen (1972)record the killing by lions of an adult rhino which was released in the Wankie National Park.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Herbert+and+Austen+%281972%29+record+the+killing+by+lions+of+an+adult+rhino+which+was+released+in+the+Wankie+National+Park.
Four animals (three bulls and one cow) were known to have succumbed from fatal wounds.... Attacks by lions (Panthera leo) on adult rhinos have been seen on two occasions in the Okaukeujo and Halali areas.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Four+animals+%28three+bulls+and+one+cow%29+were+known+to+have+succumbed+from+fatal+wounds.#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22Attacks+by+lions+(Panthera+leo)+on+adult+rhinos+have+been+seen+on+two+occasions+in+the+Okaukeujo+and+Halali+areas.%22
All the art that hails from india shows things as lions in the wildreness...not as thapar claims, in cann hunts barricaded fences:
The lions presence in asia is also quite heavly documented:
Historian colemen
"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/s...22E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art and Culture&h2=Museums
Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.
~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams
Thats as far back as the second century B-C, he wants me to believe, rulers back in the BC times, transported lions from africa to persia, only to re-transport them to china? lol Valmik doesnt scholar in anything on the asiatic lion, his life knowledge is just the conservation of tigers.
Guo Pu or Kwoh P'oh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Pu
Also, in the Western Jin, the annotation by Guo Pu to Erya indicates that "suanni" is actually another word for a lion that made its way into China from western regions.
http://theme.npm.edu.tw/exh102/oversized10201/en/ch01.html
Lion and prostrate Tiger
A lion to be presented by the barbarian King of Po-ssu was captured and retained by the rebel Mo-ch’I Ch’ou-nu while on its way to the capital. Toward the end of Yung-an (A.D 530), with the downfall of [Mo-ch’I] Ch’oi-nu,, [the lion] finally reached the capital. Emperor chuang said to Li Yu, the Chief Palace attendent, We have heard that when a tiger sees a lion, it will always lay prostrate. Lets get a tiger and try to find out wheather this is true.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lO...a=X&ei=uohxVPKbCJSyoQTwt4LwBg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw
Lets see what the synonyms of Prostrate are:
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/prostrate
So:
-Beaten
-Paralayzed
-Defensless
-Weak
-Overwhelmed
-Over Powered
-Exhausted
-Immobilized
-Knocked over
Tibet:
http://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2011/
A young lion comes from tibet and it is said to eat tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=f6...a=X&ei=vhlHVKeMFtCyyASnnoDwAw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
(Suanni) Lion On the ancient Chinese dictionary, Erhya (é¢âÎ ûr y®£), there is an ancient and probably indigenous Chinese term for the lion. This term is Suanni (“©‡« suÇn ní), described as a light-colored tiger (or feline) which eats other tigers and leopards and identified by the earliest commentators with the Han lion, Shizi. It
http://www.cozychinese.com/lion-shi/
It shows that during the fighting between a lion and a tiger, the tiger is killed and eaten by the lion.
http://maskdance.com/japanese/sub3/sub1.asp?bseq=7&cat=-1&sk=&sv=&page=1&mode=view&aseq=7
Monk Huilin said: "Suan Ni is the Lion, the Western
Regions."
2. The sixth is the Suan Ni, is a beast can be eating tigers and leopards.
http://danci.911cha.com/狻猊.html
(15th century Puntsaou)
The Lion, designated by a character which implies, that it is the chief among carnivorous animals... It preys upon the tiger, the leopard, and the yu, another species of the feline race...naturalists, quoted in the Punt-saou, assert, he is the prince, that is, second to the king among the beasts of the field.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA...IBw&id=KrwRAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
The Forbidden City is divided into an outer and an inner court. We are now standing on the southernmost part of the outer court. In front of us lies the Gate of Supreme Harmony. The gate is guarded by a pair of bronze lions, symbolizing imperial power and dignity. The lions were the most exquisite and the biggest of its kind.…
According to the ancient record the lion was also called Suanni. The historical books Hou Han Shu (History of the Late Han Dynasty) and Dong Guan Han Ji have it that by the reign of emperors Zhang and Shun of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220 A.D.) lions were brought in by envoys from the States of Anxi and Shule. Yu Shinan, a famous calligrapher of the Tang Dynasty described the animal in his Ode to the Lions:"Its eyesight is like a shaft of lightning and its roaring, a peal of thunder." And in this way the nimble but ferocious beast was vividly brought forth in his writing. In ancient China, lions were used to guard tombs, carved in grottoes and made onto articles for daily use. For example, you can find stone lions of the Han and Tang dynasties, the pieces of brocade with lion patterns discovered on the Silk Road, the lion as a ride for Bodhisattva Manjusri in the Stone Cave Temple, the bronze mirror with lion patterns of the Tang Dynasty, seal with a lion - shaped knob of the Northern and Southern dynasties as well as porcelain pillows and toys...
The lion, an animal from an exotic land, was the king of all beasts, able to safe-guard hills and mountains. Suanni, a legendary and ferocious beast, able to devour tigers and leopards, signified that all mountains around were under unified governance and all beasts at his command.
http://www.conference.ac.cn/BeijingGuide/ForbiddenCity.htm
All the chinese records about lions eating tigers when confined together is seen even on video today:
Lioness trys to eat tiger, is saved by male lion:
Qing dynasty 16th century:
http://www.cang.com/trade/show-5850966-2.html
Tocharians
The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.
(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)
It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,
It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,
It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm
“A glourious event in the past”
The lion was even more savage then the tiger.
~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang Exotics University of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z...ost+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
Emperor wu started breeding lions
http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/08/22/2921s841409_2.htm
Terrace and stone sculptures at Songling, tombs of the Song Dynasty in Gongyi City, Henan
Surrounding the tomb terrace were four walls; inside the wall corners were four watchtowers... were pairs ofstone lions.
http://www.china.org.cn/features/atam/2005-01/07/content_1115232.htm
So I guess you could count those in as the asiatic lion winning against some bengals, because some of the artifacts show a white tiger, which only happens in the bengal sub-species. I think the biggest probalem woukld be that the tiger is un-protected at the neck in a fight, if a small dog can kill a tiger by biting the tigers neck, than the lions mane is a big advantage:
Example of the tigers neck not protected:
Heres two cases where a single small dog killed tigers:
Against everyone's expectations, it furiously sprang at the tiger's throat, and would not let go its hold, though torn by the nails of the infuriated beast, and finally both died
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Against+everyone%27s+expectations%2C+it+furiously+sprang+at+the+tiger%27s+throat%2C+and+would+not+let+go+its+hold%2C%22+killed
Once Hideyoshi gave a live dog to his pet tiger as a treat; buf the animal, realizing the situation before the tiger did, seized the tiger by the throat and choked it to death before it could defend itself, though the dog too died from its wounds.
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Once+Hideyoshi+gave+a+live+dog+to+his+pet+tiger+as+a+treat%3B+buf+the+animal%2C+realizing+the+situation+before+the+tiger+did%2C+seized+the+tiger+by+the+throat+and+choked+it+to+death+before+it+could+defend+itself%2C+though+the+dog+too+died+from+its+wounds.%22
So its more about who gets the first grab, and again...because the lion has a mane that protects most of his body, the will have a big advantage in the fight:
have attacked tigers, and every time the tiger was overcome. Evidently, the ...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=+%22have+attacked+tigers%2C+and+every+time+the+tiger+was+overcome.+Evidently%2C+the%22
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by frankieboy
With my extensive experience of cats, I would say that there is one thing responsible for this :
My cat is addicted to them.
I blame myself.Original post by Ciel.
My cat is addicted to them. I blame myself.
I blame myself.Try chucking them all over the place for the cat to chase. Get the cat focused on it, then chuck it about 5 metres away. They like that
Original post by frankieboy
Try chucking them all over the place for the cat to chase. Get the cat focused on it, then chuck it about 5 metres away. They like that
I should, it would help her lose a bit of weight too..
Original post by Ciel.
I should, it would help her lose a bit of weight too..
Yeah cos that way they get to not only chase prey but catch it and eat it too.
Plus - exercise.
Plus - very fun for you to watch.
On ecological grounds, Valmik Thapar, the lead author, highlights the lack of suitable records of encounters of lions and nilgai, the largest Indian antelope, which would have been suitable prey of lions in the Indian grasslands. Thapar also argues that it would have been impossible for the lions to survive in much of the Indian jungles due to the presence of a more powerful and agile predator, the tiger.
Impossible? Is that why lions can kill 900 pound bears, a weight that is double the size of the average tiger?
http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3889729
Similarly the cheetahs came into the country as gifts or tributes from Africa and Persia. The authors bolster their claim with evidences about the absence of cheetah art until the medieval period, and the mention and visual depiction of cheetahs from twelfth century onwards. Theycontinue that the grasslands of India that is largely uneven and unsuitable for the cheetahs also hosted wolves, hyenas, tigers and leopards making the life of the fragile cheetah impossible.
http://sanjaygubbi.blogspot.com/2013/06/exotic-aliens-lion-and-cheetah-in-india.html
Cheetah with hyena:
Indias mega predators are more numerous an competition is more frequent and tougher in africa:
It is only the tiger who could never handle the rough and toughness of africas competition, hence he is the only big cat connected through the middle east that never breached the African border.
If cheetahs chose open lands, then how are the tigers suppose to get at them? Contradict much? Tigers dont linger or venture into open lands, because it runs the risk of being killed by the 40 lb d'hole, yet cheetahs co-exist with the 200 lb spotted hyena who roles in only clans of upto 50+...yet cheetahs were never killed off entirely by hyenas....So Valmik thapars opinion is both flawed and quite bias.
Perhaps tiger numbers are so low because they are usually the ones getting killed by their competition:
Female boar kills full grown male bengal tiger:
http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=SFC19130706.2.141.19
another tiger killed by a boar:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH18890223.2.52.10
wild boar kills tiger, and croc kills tiger
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn87093407/1914-02-03/ed-1/seq-3.pdf
4 dogs kill a big tiger at hagenbeckshttp://newspapers.library.wales/view/3733461/3733464/16/lion%20tiger%20fight
Sheep killed a tiger:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/115309587?searchTerm=tiger%20killed&searchLimits=http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/217901180?searchTerm=tiger%20killed&searchLimits=
As the tiger's neck was for a second fully exposed, the bear's head shot out from between his shoulders, swift as a striking snake, and the next instant his jaws clamped together like a trap of death and his knife-like fangs cut through skin, muscle and bone until they met in the vital knot at the base of the neck. As if struck by lightning, the tiger's head sank back and his clutching paws stiffened and loosed their...Not until the striped body lay stark and still did the bear open his jaws and, lurching to his feet, stand, a bloodstained ...https://www.google.com/search?biw=1238&bih=552&noj=1&tbm=bks&q=%22trap+of+death+and+his+knife-like+fangs+cut+through+skin%2C+muscle+and+bone+until+they+met+in+the+vital+knot+at+the+base+of+the+neck.%22+as+if&oq=%22trap+of+death+and+his+knife-like+fangs+cut+through+skin%2C+muscle+and+bone+until+they+met+in+the+vital+knot+at+the+base+of+the+neck.%22+as+if&gs_l=serp.3...2710.2710.0.2925.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.serp..1.0.0.Hk2fRwsjejk
Federal officials have pointed to problems at both facilities. A 2007 U.S. Department of Agriculture inspection at Predator World noted three instances of animals getting out of their pens: two wolves that escaped into the community; a grizzly bear that remained on the property but was able to kill a tiger; and a fo
As the tiger's neck was for a second fully exposed, the bear's head shot out from between his shoulders, swift as a striking snake, and the next instant his jaws clamped together like a trap of death and his knife-like fangs cut through skin, muscle and bone until they met in the vital knot at the base of the neck. As if struck by lightning, the tiger's head sank back and his clutching paws stiffened and loosed their...Not until the striped body lay stark and still did the bear open his jaws and, lurching to his feet, stand, a bloodstained
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1238&bih=552&noj=1&tbm=bks&q=%22trap+of+death+and+his+knife-like+fangs+cut+through+skin%2C+muscle+and+bone+until+they+met+in+the+vital+knot+at+the+base+of+the+neck.%22+as+if&oq=%22trap+of+death+and+his+knife-like+fangs+cut+through+skin%2C+muscle+and+bone+until+they+met+in+the+vital+knot+at+the+base+of+the+neck.%22+as+if&gs_l=serp.3...2710.2710.0.2925.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.serp..1.0.0.Hk2fRwsjejk
Federal officials have pointed to problems at both facilities. A 2007 U.S. Department of Agriculture inspection at Predator World noted three instances of animals getting out of their pens: two wolves that escaped into the community; a grizzly bear that remained on the property but was able to kill a tiger;
when the tigers element of ambush is out, all the records shows the tiger is the poorest fighter of the big cats:
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/56682543/
(Fateh singh)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fateh_Singh_of_Udaipur_and_Mewar
Boar mauls tiger
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/...rspast?a=d&d=OAM19100120.2.51
very large tiger had a fight with a wild pig, and which do you think won. Why, the pig. The tiger was found dead, lying in the tea garden, with wounds all over him, ribs broken, and a severe gash across the shoulder. I
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/rea...ld_and_Domesticated_1000282676/21
had but to give the coup de grace and the fight would have been ended. He, however, turned away. The boar recovered, rushed at the tiger, and disembowelled him.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/rea...Modern_Pig-Sticking_1000899599/43
We beat back again for the coverts, and once more dividing our party, we were lucky in spearing five young boars before lunch. Every one of them fought well. These boars of the Koosee Dyaras are all plucky animals. Instances have been known in which they have even proved too much for the royal Tiger himself. One of these encounters I myself once witnessed
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/rea..._Life_in_Tigerland_1000646423/173
the tiger could recover the boar dashed underneath his guard, as a prize-fighter would say, and actually bore him back by main strength. The tiger cried out with pain and rage and fought with teeth and claws, while the tusks of the boar were cutting him through like sword-blades. The tiger tried to get clear of the boar, with the evident intention of fighting at longer range, but the boar, grim and silent, stuck to him as relentlessly as death itself. In a short time the tiger was so fearfully gored that he endeavored to crawl away from his antagonist, but the boar followed him, and never stopped attacking even after every vestige of life had vanished from the almost shapeless remains of the tiger. Finally the boar paused, and, after looking carefully over the remains of his enemy, as if to make sure that he was dead, crawled away and lay down to rest.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/rea...of_Captain_Quinton_1000537159/209
The two looked at one another for some minutes, and then the boar walked out and stood in the middle of the cage, evidently challenging the tiger to fight, which, however, he declined to do, trying, on the contrary, to sink lower to the ground, and to press closer to the bars of the cage, clearly showing a strong desire to avoid contact All attempts to rouse the tiger having failed, the trap-door was raised and he swiftly fled. This in a way confirmed what I had heard from native hunters of the full-grown wild boar being sometimes more than a match for the tiger, when not taken unawares. One of them told me that he and others had found the remains of a tiger and a boar which had evidendy fought to the death, the signs showing the tiger to have died first, the boar going away some distance before he fell to his deadly hurts. thought the tiger had attacked the ** sounder" party of pigs which the boar was with, and that he struck first in defence of his family.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/rea...text/A_Varied_Life_1000507572/269
Several instances are on record of desperate fights between a large boar and a tiger, and in not a few the tiger has been killed.
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Mammalia_1000816536/587
There are records of gaur and buffalo goring tigers and of wild boars disemboweling them with their tusks
https://books.google.com/books?id...qJ4XZoATYo4A4&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA
Adult tigers are occasionally disemboweled by rogue boars
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ad...rogue+boars&tbm=bks&tbo=1
a tiger was found dead cut up by a boar
https://books.google.com/books?id...NjSoAT4ooHQDg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA
Bull kills tiger
Madras fight, bull defeats tiger:
crocodiles kill tigers:
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/in-sunderbans-crocodile-devours-tiger/829699/
We are told of frequent combats between the crocodile and the tiger. All creatures of the tiger kind are continually oppressed by a parching thirst, that keeps them in the vicinity of great rivers, whither they descend to drink very frequently. It is upon these occasions that they are seized by the crocodile; and they die not unrevenged. The instant they are seized upon, they turn with the greatest agility, and force their claws into the crocodile's eyes, while he plunges with his fierce antagonist into the river. There they continue to struggle for some time, till at last the tiger is drowned.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3...a=X&ei=kVSwVKa-CtTmoASS14CYCw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
The buffalo, thinking his adversary was still alive, attacked and gored him...authors
pMan
The tiger invariably attempts to kill his enemy by leaping on his shoulders and breaking his neck, but when he is in the air midway of his leap the buffalo usually lunges forward and strikes him a stunning blow with his head and horns; then, before he can scramble to his feet, the buffalo is upon him kneeling and kneading his body with such terrific force that he is left a bloody, mutilated and lifeless pulp. Sometimes two tigers are pitted against one buflalo, and it is seldom that he fails to vanquish them.https://books.google.com/books?id=SxrPAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA10&lpg=PA10&dq=rampok+tiger+buffalo&source=bl&ots=rcR1pksyva&sig=_CVKj3_BrDuuTRc-ODZ5Ij6kHJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4WJWVeSFBs-YyASAgIHYBQ&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=rampok%20tiger%20buffalo&f=false
TWO TIGERS KILLED IN FAIR FIGHT BY AN INDIAN BISON
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_51/outLI05/outLI05r.pdf
series of thrusts and tossings till its feline enemy was gored to death
https://books.google.com/books?id=YscNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268&dq=buffalo+tiger+fight+%22gored+to+death%22&source=bl&ots=wsBik9br59&sig=MtlGonmpKOfUZF1tHAWn5fxQS5s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=rmZWVeH-H9b_yQTXkYGwAg&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=buffalo%20tiger%20fight%20%22gored%20to%20death%22&f=false
The tiger killed seven persons and injured five before being gored to death by thebuffalo
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19460209&id=-StWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=L-UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4709,2024853&hl=en
tiger gored to death by buffalo:
http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DAC18820923.2.59
prince some years ago to a fight between a buffalo and a tiger, in which the latter was easily vanquished and gored to death.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1U09AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=buffalo+tiger+fight+%22gored+to+death%22&source=bl&ots=-QaT2pGO1b&sig=Me3_9a96AFs42Kjf1OH1sOUVuD0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tmdWVdmTDYakyQSnkoD4Dw&ved=0CCAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=buffalo%20tiger%20fight%20%22gored%20to%20death%22&f=false
Soon a fight between a royal tiger anda buffalo together in a pen was commenced. The tiger was several times tossed into the air and then gored to death
https://books.google.com/books?id=myw_AQAAMAAJ&pg=RA6-PA17&lpg=RA6-PA17&dq=buffalo+tiger+fight+%22gored+to+death%22&source=bl&ots=qcgkwFuKCg&sig=9I49hEv41Bnms1_nZ-mnCEhc1DU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=tmdWVdmTDYakyQSnkoD4Dw&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=buffalo%20tiger%20fight%20%22gored%20to%20death%22&f=false
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/90101345?searchTerm=fight%20%20tiger%20bull&searchLimits=l-illustrated=true
Tiger is killed by bull in el paso
http://www.fultonhistory.com/Process%20small/Newspapers/Newspapers%20%20Out%20of%20NY/GoldField%20Nevada%20Chronicle/GoldField%20Nevada%20Chronicle%2001-01%20%2012-31%201908/GoldField%20Nevada%20Chronicle%2001-01%20%2012-31%201908s%20-%201285.PDF
First, a fight was staged between a tiger and a buffalo, in which the big cat was
usually gored to death.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/4727249/How-the-tiger-earned-his-stripes.html 700 lb bengal named Caesar whipped by
bull
Bull kills tiger:
https://books.google.com/books?id=UzEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA477&lpg=PA477&dq=%22fight+between%22++bull+tiger&source=bl&ots=AHC1KDL1Em&sig=CNbCXbO93HNOAbCnFrU4yX7W_7c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=C3FWVeG_PI-SyQSN2oCgCg&ved=0CBYQ6AEwATgU#v=onepage&q=%22fight%20between%22%20%20bull%20tiger&f=false the buffalo is quite frequently the victorhttps://books.google.com/books?id=ZtULAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=buffalo+tiger+fight+malay&source=bl&ots=dmL4y7tQL5&sig=zoIBVzs0E1tNKMmP2LHHMAj50a0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eYxWVaPVDsqdyATvtIGIDw&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=buffalo%20tiger%20fight%20malay&f=false
Buffalo kills tigress and skinny looking guar kills male bengal an dies after:
describes the evolution of the curious tiger rituals at the Javanese courts, involving "tiger sticking" by massed lancemen and tiger-buffalo fights (which the tiger usually lost).http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/jih/summary/v034/34.3potter.html whips two tigers: Tigers were either made to fight buffaloes (the buffalo won)
https://books.google.com/books?id=JmZ-BgAAQBAJ&pg=PT544&lpg=PT544&dq=tiger+buffalo+macan+always+won&source=bl&ots=G_mzcFLyoi&sig=fRhbX6LY8dK2KAEE002Pwrvqsx0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3mtWVZq3MIWfyATX94CQCQ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=tiger%20buffalo%20macan%20always%20won&f=false
Ram kills tiger:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/130598972/14736414
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Sword of Justice
Wow, interesting...two votes for the asiatic lion already, I thought absolutely no body would have voted for the indian lion as all the talk on the web has the bengal tiger with like a 10/10 win over the so called puny asiatic lion. lol
I didnt make it african lion vs bengal tiger, because it seems Clyde beatty single handedly inadvertently proved that the african lion is superior to the bengal:
https://www.newspapers.com/image/82575405/?terms=Clyde%2BBeatty%2Blion%2Bfights%2Btigers
Youve probably already have seen his film the big cage, and have seen a ton of tiger fans who said it was female tigers, sumatran tigers, sickly tigers or any other type of excuse, but heres the full details:
, 5 different news sources report the tiger died after
I didnt make it african lion vs bengal tiger, because it seems Clyde beatty single handedly inadvertently proved that the african lion is superior to the bengal:
https://www.newspapers.com/image/82575405/?terms=Clyde%2BBeatty%2Blion%2Bfights%2BtigersYouve probably already have seen his film the big cage, and have seen a ton of tiger fans who said it was female tigers, sumatran tigers, sickly tigers or any other type of excuse, but heres the full details:
, 5 different news sources report the tiger died after
the hose was spraying. 3 male tigers died in the making of the scene. Note the image on the lower right shows a lion with a death grip on a tiger.
3 tigers died, in the the big cage movie from a lion which was made in 1933
.
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws....70d5e4a2_r.jpg
1st fight, Sultan the lion kills a wild tiger named Tommy:The first fight in the Bigcage actually gave the advantage to the tiger. Beatty allowed for the tiger to jump the lion by surprise.The lion did not see the tiger, it was focused on attacking Beatty instead. The tiger chosen, was untamed, wild, it had never been in the cage with a lion nor in Beatty's act. The untamed tiger waschosen on purpose so that a good fight would ensue for the film
.
Most of the movie stars watching the first fight, bet on the tiger. But, Beatty noted the tiger always commits itself hanging on first where ever it can grab hold.The lion appears to not commit itself to the hold first, but only commits itself if its able to bite a vital area. Here is the full link and article to this account. http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/766733622nd Fight, Caesar the lion, kills Bobby the tiger.
This is Caesar the lion below, he has a belly mane, not the same lion we see which
is shown in the 3rd fight. The tiger on the right is Bobby, which Caesar killed, again
this fight is not shown on film.
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1
The 3rd fight, is the fight we see on film. After the hose was spraying, the lion killed the male tiger.Several news sources below report this, the tiger was bitten through the kidney.
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpghttp://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k625/Leofwin/lionkillstigerinbigcagefight-1.jpg
http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/Leofwin/media/liontigeraccount5.jpg.html?t=1312674003
Saturday May 27, 1933, Santa Cruz News, page
3.
More evidence the 3rd male tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Under the
column "observations" and title "bits about film here and coming." The article says the
studio reported the tiger was killed after the hose was spraying. Which is not shown on film.
http://fultonhistory.com/Newspapers%2021/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933/Buffalo%20NY%20Courier%20Express%201933%20-%204205.pdfAnd its not as if Clyde beatty was the only trainer this has happened to:
http://wildanimalwarfare.yuku.com/topic/8/Lion-fights-male-tigers#.VtqaIZwrLIU
But anyways, back to the indian lions debate:
Some say that the indian lion was just imported into india, but wheres the logic in that, lions follow earths largest mega faunas, or herds...why? Because single animal like a sambar, or chital, or blue bull cannot sustain lions who live in large groups, os it only makes sense that the cave lions followed the mammoth, african lions followed the bush elephant, and indian lions would have followed the asiatic elephant, nature always balances out a prey with a predator, and tigers dont even kill 20 elephants a year, yet one pride the savuti, killed over a 100 elephants in little time. Even solitary males have killed quite large elephants on their own:
A lone lion who killed a pretty big elephant:
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&q=%22this+male+killed+this+elephant+entirely+on+its+own%22&cad=h
Hence indian lions would be a natural part of indias eco-system.
lions kill male white rhino
https://books.google.com/books?id=1jT72JdLVIcC&pg=PA158&dq=lions+killed+two+adult+rhinos&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjuiejDvKnLAhXDMGMKHel3AiYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=lions%20killed%20two%20adult%20rhinos&f=false
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=Lion+v.+Rhino+A+YOUNG+%22mature+rhino+was+killed+by+a+pride+of+lion+near+Lerai+Forest.+The+rhino+had+been+battered+around+its+neck+which+was+lacerated+by+lion+claws%3B+as+there+was+no+evidence+on+the+ground+of+a+fight+or+struggle+I+can+only
Herbert and Austen (1972)record the killing by lions of an adult rhino which was released in the Wankie National Park.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Herbert+and+Austen+%281972%29+record+the+killing+by+lions+of+an+adult+rhino+which+was+released+in+the+Wankie+National+Park.
Four animals (three bulls and one cow) were known to have succumbed from fatal wounds.... Attacks by lions (Panthera leo) on adult rhinos have been seen on two occasions in the Okaukeujo and Halali areas.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Four+animals+%28three+bulls+and+one+cow%29+were+known+to+have+succumbed+from+fatal+wounds.#hl=en&tbm=bks&q=%22Attacks+by+lions+(Panthera+leo)+on+adult+rhinos+have+been+seen+on+two+occasions+in+the+Okaukeujo+and+Halali+areas.%22
All the art that hails from india shows things as lions in the wildreness...not as thapar claims, in cann hunts barricaded fences:
The lions presence in asia is also quite heavly documented:
Historian colemen
"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/s...22E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art and Culture&h2=Museums
Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.
~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams
Thats as far back as the second century B-C, he wants me to believe, rulers back in the BC times, transported lions from africa to persia, only to re-transport them to china? lol Valmik doesnt scholar in anything on the asiatic lion, his life knowledge is just the conservation of tigers.
Guo Pu or Kwoh P'oh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guo_Pu
Also, in the Western Jin, the annotation by Guo Pu to Erya indicates that "suanni" is actually another word for a lion that made its way into China from western regions.
http://theme.npm.edu.tw/exh102/oversized10201/en/ch01.html
Lion and prostrate Tiger
A lion to be presented by the barbarian King of Po-ssu was captured and retained by the rebel Mo-ch’I Ch’ou-nu while on its way to the capital. Toward the end of Yung-an (A.D 530), with the downfall of [Mo-ch’I] Ch’oi-nu,, [the lion] finally reached the capital. Emperor chuang said to Li Yu, the Chief Palace attendent, We have heard that when a tiger sees a lion, it will always lay prostrate. Lets get a tiger and try to find out wheather this is true.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lO...a=X&ei=uohxVPKbCJSyoQTwt4LwBg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw
Lets see what the synonyms of Prostrate are:
http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/prostrate
So:
-Beaten
-Paralayzed
-Defensless
-Weak
-Overwhelmed
-Over Powered
-Exhausted
-Immobilized
-Knocked over
Tibet:
http://www.tibetarchaeology.com/march-2011/
A young lion comes from tibet and it is said to eat tigers
http://books.google.com/books?id=f6...a=X&ei=vhlHVKeMFtCyyASnnoDwAw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg
(Suanni) Lion On the ancient Chinese dictionary, Erhya (é¢âÎ ûr y®£), there is an ancient and probably indigenous Chinese term for the lion. This term is Suanni (“©‡« suÇn ní), described as a light-colored tiger (or feline) which eats other tigers and leopards and identified by the earliest commentators with the Han lion, Shizi. It
http://www.cozychinese.com/lion-shi/
It shows that during the fighting between a lion and a tiger, the tiger is killed and eaten by the lion.
http://maskdance.com/japanese/sub3/sub1.asp?bseq=7&cat=-1&sk=&sv=&page=1&mode=view&aseq=7
Monk Huilin said: "Suan Ni is the Lion, the Western
Regions."
2. The sixth is the Suan Ni, is a beast can be eating tigers and leopards.
http://danci.911cha.com/狻猊.html
(15th century Puntsaou)
The Lion, designated by a character which implies, that it is the chief among carnivorous animals... It preys upon the tiger, the leopard, and the yu, another species of the feline race...naturalists, quoted in the Punt-saou, assert, he is the prince, that is, second to the king among the beasts of the field.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA...IBw&id=KrwRAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
The Forbidden City is divided into an outer and an inner court. We are now standing on the southernmost part of the outer court. In front of us lies the Gate of Supreme Harmony. The gate is guarded by a pair of bronze lions, symbolizing imperial power and dignity. The lions were the most exquisite and the biggest of its kind.…
According to the ancient record the lion was also called Suanni. The historical books Hou Han Shu (History of the Late Han Dynasty) and Dong Guan Han Ji have it that by the reign of emperors Zhang and Shun of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 - 220 A.D.) lions were brought in by envoys from the States of Anxi and Shule. Yu Shinan, a famous calligrapher of the Tang Dynasty described the animal in his Ode to the Lions:"Its eyesight is like a shaft of lightning and its roaring, a peal of thunder." And in this way the nimble but ferocious beast was vividly brought forth in his writing. In ancient China, lions were used to guard tombs, carved in grottoes and made onto articles for daily use. For example, you can find stone lions of the Han and Tang dynasties, the pieces of brocade with lion patterns discovered on the Silk Road, the lion as a ride for Bodhisattva Manjusri in the Stone Cave Temple, the bronze mirror with lion patterns of the Tang Dynasty, seal with a lion - shaped knob of the Northern and Southern dynasties as well as porcelain pillows and toys...
The lion, an animal from an exotic land, was the king of all beasts, able to safe-guard hills and mountains. Suanni, a legendary and ferocious beast, able to devour tigers and leopards, signified that all mountains around were under unified governance and all beasts at his command.
http://www.conference.ac.cn/BeijingGuide/ForbiddenCity.htm
All the chinese records about lions eating tigers when confined together is seen even on video today:
Lioness trys to eat tiger, is saved by male lion:
Qing dynasty 16th century:
http://www.cang.com/trade/show-5850966-2.html
Tocharians
The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.
(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)
It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,
It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,
It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm
“A glourious event in the past”
The lion was even more savage then the tiger.
~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang Exotics University of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z...ost+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
Emperor wu started breeding lions
http://english.cri.cn/7146/2014/08/22/2921s841409_2.htm
Terrace and stone sculptures at Songling, tombs of the Song Dynasty in Gongyi City, Henan
Surrounding the tomb terrace were four walls; inside the wall corners were four watchtowers... were pairs ofstone lions.
http://www.china.org.cn/features/atam/2005-01/07/content_1115232.htm
So I guess you could count those in as the asiatic lion winning against some bengals, because some of the artifacts show a white tiger, which only happens in the bengal sub-species. I think the biggest probalem woukld be that the tiger is un-protected at the neck in a fight, if a small dog can kill a tiger by biting the tigers neck, than the lions mane is a big advantage:
Example of the tigers neck not protected:
Heres two cases where a single small dog killed tigers:
Against everyone's expectations, it furiously sprang at the tiger's throat, and would not let go its hold, though torn by the nails of the infuriated beast, and finally both died
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Against+everyone%27s+expectations%2C+it+furiously+sprang+at+the+tiger%27s+throat%2C+and+would+not+let+go+its+hold%2C%22+killed
Once Hideyoshi gave a live dog to his pet tiger as a treat; buf the animal, realizing the situation before the tiger did, seized the tiger by the throat and choked it to death before it could defend itself, though the dog too died from its wounds.
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=%22Once+Hideyoshi+gave+a+live+dog+to+his+pet+tiger+as+a+treat%3B+buf+the+animal%2C+realizing+the+situation+before+the+tiger+did%2C+seized+the+tiger+by+the+throat+and+choked+it+to+death+before+it+could+defend+itself%2C+though+the+dog+too+died+from+its+wounds.%22
So its more about who gets the first grab, and again...because the lion has a mane that protects most of his body, the will have a big advantage in the fight:
have attacked tigers, and every time the tiger was overcome. Evidently, the ...
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=+%22have+attacked+tigers%2C+and+every+time+the+tiger+was+overcome.+Evidently%2C+the%22
As a treat?! That's just horrible. I hate some humans : (
Original post by Ciel.
As a treat?! That's just horrible. I hate some humans : (
Its a tough world
In that case, lions would make the suitable mega fauna balance, since they are the only ones that kill big game regularly, one or two big game from tigers doesnt balance out anything.
..Lionesses generally prey on ungulates, comfortably taking down those sized between 50-300 kg.
..But male lions are also very good hunters,..They also take more risks in hunting and occasionally prey on much larger
animals. They can fiercely take down bull buffaloes, giraffes and even hippo.
http://globalsojourns.com/imagedump/Web_Articles/Articles_All_Africa/African_Lion.pdf
this proves that lions huntmore than they scavange
http://i853.photobucket.com/albums/ab95/boldchamp1/Percentageofscavenging.jpg
the males kill more buffalo than the females:
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5098/5541641483_f30058bc2b_b.jpg
..In Contrast to that of the lion, the tigers habitat is typically closed, containsrelatively fewer and smaller prey
..90% of tiger kills were found in riverine forest/grasslands..Most of the prey killed by tigers weigh 50-100 kg,
http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/zoology/pdf_hi/sctz-0336.pdf
(edited 8 years ago)
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